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Theo Fleury or Pavel Bure?

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Old
07-28-2006, 05:27 PM
  #1
revolverjgw
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Theo Fleury or Pavel Bure?

I've never started a ____ or _____ topic but I thought this would be a pretty interesting question, because despite huge differences in style, they're both in pretty similar situations... small, elite right wingers with their careers cut a bit short, both sort of headcase-types with reputations for being moody or difficult, they're both going to be the subject of lot of debate when it comes to the HOF...

And they both have a ''gimmick'' that might help get them in there. Bure being really exciting at that one thing that he did well makes him a memorable figure, and Fleury being about three feet tall, that's something people are going to remember. But to counter this, Bure is famously one-dimensional and Fleury is famously... crazy. That will make people think twice. Both of these guys are on the cusp, for different reasons.

Look how equally they stack up statistically-

Team achievements (Advantage Fleury)
WJC- Fleury 1 Bure 1
Stanley Cups- Fleury 1 Bure 0
Olympic titles- Fleury 1 Bure 0
World Cup- Fleury 1 Bure 0

Individual awards- (advantage Bure, but it's not like these are Hart trophies)
Bure- Calder, 2 Richards
Fleury- Alka Seltzer (led league in plus minus)

100 point seasons- 2 each
90 point seasons- 3-2, Bure
80 point seasons- 1 each
70 point seasons- 3-0 for Fleury

Regular season- both are above a point per game. Fleury scored more points because he played longer, but his point-per-game eroded a bit more as a result.

Bure 702-437-342-779
Fleury 1084-455-633-1088

Playoff- again, both are above a point per game. So basically, both of these maintained their regular season production in the playoffs... that's impressive, barely any superstars do that. Fleury with more games and points, again.

Bure 64-35-35-70
Fleury 77-34-45-79

These guys match up really equally offensively and have comparable individual awards. But I think it's safe to say Fleury was more useful all-around. He was small but played big and chippy and had more elements to his game. He was dangerous with and without the puck. He was dangerous, period... made him a loose-cannon later in his career, but when he harnassed his rage, he was a more complete player than Bure.

I take Fleury but I confess it's so close, I'm just picking him because I like his game more. Better to be crazy than one-dimensional, in my mind.

BTW, what do you think of their respective HOF chances?

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07-28-2006, 05:31 PM
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redwingsdude
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Bure by a nautical mile.

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07-28-2006, 05:40 PM
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The man in my avatar.

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Old
07-28-2006, 05:41 PM
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Its not really close. Bure by FAR.

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07-28-2006, 05:43 PM
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revolverjgw
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How is it not close? Bure didn't outscore him drastically enough to make up for Fleury's obvious physical/defensive edge.

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07-28-2006, 05:59 PM
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8BostonRocker24
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Great Question

These two players are very close if you ask me.

Put me down fotaking Theo Fleury. I'm a huge fan of his.

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07-28-2006, 06:02 PM
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Bure is arguably one of the best "pure skill" players ever.

I'll take Bure 11 times out of 10 in this matchup.

EDIT: To be fair to the thread starter, I take Bure because he's such a phenominal talent it blows my mind. However Fleury was a dominant player as well. The penalty minute difference is what makes it easier.

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07-28-2006, 06:05 PM
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Cynical TyranT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregStack View Post
Bure is arguably one of the best "pure skill" players ever.

I'll take Bure 11 times out of 10 in this matchup.
Bure vs. Fleury? Why, cuz if yer drunk and same their names fast they kinda rhyme?

Bure, by several light years.

I cant believe these two are being compared.

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07-28-2006, 06:25 PM
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revolverjgw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynical TyranT View Post
Bure vs. Fleury? Why, cuz if yer drunk and same their names fast they kinda rhyme?

Bure, by several light years.

I cant believe these two are being compared.
It might be Friday night, but I'm not drunk yet. My reasoning is that both of these guys are borderline HOFers, so obviously they're on the same level. Bure has slightly better numbers, Fleury is definitely better at everything except scoring, so... how can it not be close? There's more to hockey than scoring.

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Old
07-28-2006, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Individual awards- (advantage Bure, but it's not like these are Hart trophies)
Though he came second in voting one year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
100 point seasons- 2 each
90 point seasons- 3-2, Bure
80 point seasons- 1 each
70 point seasons- 3-0 for Fleury
If you've had a 100 point season you've had a 90, 80 and 70 point season too. So here's the real deal:

100 point seasons - Fluery: 2 Bure: 2
90 point seasons - Fluery: 3 Bure: 5
80 point seasons - Fluery: 4 Bure: 5
70 point seasons - Fluery: 7 Bure: 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
These guys match up really equally offensively and have comparable individual awards.
How is the +/- award comparable to 2 richards and the calder trophy? Fleury has more team awards though but that should more work in Bure's favor as it just shows Theo was with better teams.

I'd take Bure and it isn't close in my mind (read GreagStack's comment for why). Though I loved watching Theo play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
BTW, what do you think of their respective HOF chances?
I think both deserve to get in, they are some of the most talked about players of their time (and I'm not talking about what the off-ice things). Bure moreso because he is a legend and would create magic on ice that no one had ever seen before. It's laughable how people think it's borderline, they can't have seen him play.


Last edited by XploD: 07-28-2006 at 06:36 PM.
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07-28-2006, 06:31 PM
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True North
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The 100-point season etc. comparison is irrelevant because Bure was injured so much and played fewer full seasons, not to mention like 300 games less overall.

If you're looking at just the player, it's Bure by a longshot. Career wise, you have to give it to Fleury but that's just because he played longer and without such debilitating injurites.

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07-28-2006, 06:36 PM
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XploD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Fleury is definitely better at everything except scoring
What about skating, puckhandling, one-on-one's?

Or is it just scoring and defensive work we're talking about? What exactly was Fleury better in?

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07-28-2006, 06:43 PM
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revolverjgw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canucks
The 100-point season etc. comparison is irrelevant because Bure was injured so much and played fewer full seasons, not to mention like 300 games less overall.
Yeah I'll grant you that. Although my argument for Fleury isn't really statistical based. I was just throwing up numbers hoping it would get some discussion going, everybody likes numbers.

Quote:
he played longer and without such debilitating injurites.
True but don't forget, Fleury always had his vices and demons holding him back, same as Bure... and with Theo, we don't even know the extent of them. But there's no doubt that Fleury could have been much better than he was. Mental issues can be worse than physical ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XploD View Post
Sure you didn't have whiskey in the milk today?

What about skating, puckhandling, one-on-one's?
You know what I mean. Better defensively, better without the puck, more of a physical presence, etc. Fleury was all of those things. All of Bure's individual skills were entirely parlayed into offensive production (which wasn't even that much better than Fleury's) whereas Fleury could hit and disturb and get under the skin and contribute things you can't see on the scoresheet.

(granted he went overboard later on)

Quote:
I think both deserve to get in
Same here. I'd rather they go in before Anderson and Ciccarelli. They're true individuals.

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07-28-2006, 07:08 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuck5056 View Post
The 100-point season etc. comparison is irrelevant because Bure was injured so much and played fewer full seasons, not to mention like 300 games less overall.

If you're looking at just the player, it's Bure by a longshot. Career wise, you have to give it to Fleury but that's just because he played longer and without such debilitating injurites.
I agree with this.

Fleury had a slightly better career but Bure was certainly a better player.

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07-28-2006, 07:09 PM
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in a drinking contest?

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07-28-2006, 07:14 PM
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Heat McManus
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Healthy Bure>>>>>Sober Theo

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07-28-2006, 07:39 PM
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The Kingslayer
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These threads are getting ridiculous....Bure....Done

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07-28-2006, 08:01 PM
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I'm not a reference for that, because my favorite players of all time is Pavel Bure...

No chance for Fleury.

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07-28-2006, 08:05 PM
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fullclip
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Bure without hesitation.

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Old
07-28-2006, 08:08 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
How is it not close? Bure didn't outscore him drastically enough to make up for Fleury's obvious physical/defensive edge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Comfortably Numb View Post
Its not really close. Bure by FAR.
PAVEL BURE!

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Old
07-28-2006, 08:36 PM
  #21
Jooce81
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Bure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theo

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07-28-2006, 08:50 PM
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NYR94
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Bure by a mile (and I'm a Fleury fan). Both had the dubious honor of playing for the Rangers during the "Dark Ages."

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07-28-2006, 09:02 PM
  #23
UvBnDatsyuked
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I like Theo a lot. I really wished he would have got his act together. Very talented player with one hell of a mean streak which I love and he is a midget to boot.

But if were talking talent I would go with Bure every day of the week. Watch one versus the other with both healthy and I don't even think there is a person at the game who would put Fleury in the same league as Bure (except maybe the beer vendor)

Have to go with Bure because I've seen the talent first hand quite a few times to not be blinded by stats that are being misinterperted in my opinion.

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07-28-2006, 09:03 PM
  #24
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First off, that was a nice comparison revolverjgw.

Pavel Bure is one of the greatest pure goal scorers in hockey history. While Fleury was always one of my favorite players growing up and is truly one of a kind in his own right, how can you argue with the fact that Pavel Bure scored only 18 fewer goals and did so in 382 fewer games than Fleury did?

If Bure had less injury problems over the course of his relatively short career, its very possible he could have ended up a 700 or more goal scorer by the end of his career.

Look at other players drafted in 1989, the same year Bure was drafted...

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl1989e.html

When you look at some of these other players games played numbers, guys like Sundin, Guerin, Barnes, Drake, Holik, Sillinger, Draper, Fedorov....all these guys played alot more than Bure did, between 150 - 300+ more games each than Bure did, so that really puts into perspective how much time Pavel missed, and how impressive the stat of 437 goals in 702 games played really is.

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Old
07-28-2006, 09:08 PM
  #25
kihei
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By a wide margin, Bure, who was one of the most exciting players to watch in NHL history. Definitely should be in the Hall of Fame.

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