at this age, I forget if I watched many of the sports, or if I just memorized the stats on the back of card (and boy do I remember stupid stats - like Mark Van Eeghen's season with 1080 yards - why do I remember that number? It wasn't his best season, but I remember a card that had the Oakland Raiders' leader in four categories and that was one).
Same with Mess - I remember 6'1 205, and not since he was 40, but earlier.
I agree with your classification (I think I get it at least). As I mentioned, I put Jagr in there because he does overpower others, while wearing them down.
Think the first player I can recall making have to come up with distinction was Tim Kerr. He was a big guy who because of his size would wear people down, but I just couldn't bring myself to consider him a power forward.
Since then there have been others, but Kerr is the one who stands out to me as really having to stop and think about it. The term itself can be applied so many different ways, and I think it's been an interesting debate around here before.
When Howe played, he was a giant compared to others.
He was bigger that's for sure.
But he was really his era's Messier. Neither guy was the most skilled player in the league, but players were scared to death to play against them. They'd think nothing of knocking your teeth right down your throat and then go out and score 2 goals against you.
Admitedly Howe was before my time, but when if you have a chance to look at old footage it's almost uncanny.
I don't think either player would be very welcome in today's free pass NHL. Too many people have gotten it into their head that hockey should be a finesse sport with ballet like moves and laser like precsion. Somewhere the origins of pond hockey and what helped the sport survive just fine for 75 years (including it's highest peaks) has been lost by "experts" or "fans" who don't understand the origins of the sport they claim to follow so closely.
I really think there's more to being a powerfoward than simply being offensive and having size, even if a player does utilize that size effectively. I think of a player who plays with a nasty edge and who's going to be doing the dirty work in the corners and infront of the net.
Jagr utilizes his size very well to protect the puck, Jagr at 5'11" 190lbs isn't nearly the player that he is at 6'3" 230 lbs, even with the same skill set. That being said, he's never been a player that looks to make a hit or consistently goes to the front of the net.
I usually think of a pre-Moore incident Bertuzzi as the model.
It's really a hard type of player to find, atleast on the elite level. Most of the guys you think of (Bertuzzi, Shanahan, Tkachuk, Lindros) really no longer play that way, and while there are a lot of big and talented young fowards out there, few of them strike me as being true power fowards. Ovechkin certainly comes to mind, but after that I can't roll out alot of big, nasty fowards with elite talent. Nash is often reffered to that way, but I've never seen him as having a nasty edge. Kovalchuk is big but he's not looking to hit you. I know there's probably an obvious example or two that are slipping my mind, but I doubt there are more than 10 elite, true power fowards left in the league.
edit: I'll add Nathan Horton to the list of guys who could turn into an elite Power Foward, if he stays healthy.
Part of the problem is that I think a lot of the nastiness in the game has been neutered. Guys are afraid to go nuts out there, but that's what made each of the power forwards we've mentioned so good. All of them could snap on you and just beat the tar out of you.
The thing is that the lifespan of a power forward is pretty short, there's really that peak 6 years or so (tops) and then it declines pretty fast. Shanahan is a very breed whose been able to adapt his game over the years. Make no mistake, Shanahan isn't what he once was but the guy can still be scary to play against.
It's hard to say what an elite power forward is now because the nasty factor has changed. I think guys like Nash or Thornton would have higher PIM if they played 15 years or so ago.
But it's hard to make that comparison. The game isn't nearly as physical and offense, while greater than it was, is still off from the 80's and early to mid 90's.
But I think when you factor in those changes there are guys who in that area or are getting there:
Nash, Morrow, Thornton, Iginla, Cole, Smyth, up and comers like Getzlaf, Horton, etc.
But the dynamic has changed a little over the years.
You're not going to find many guys with 200 pim or even 170 anymore. 50 goals, though easier than it was a few years ago is still not as commen as it once was. so really we'd have to kind of determine what the new numbers are for power forwards.
The elite PF's used to be 40 goals, 80 points and Triple digit PIM. But I don't know what they'd be now.
a lot of us are a bit older (older than say 20 years old) and have been following hockey for a while. We grew up watching a different brand of hockey and when the term power forward came to be, we thought of guys (as Edge mentioned) like Tim Kerr. OK, that was the early 80s when the game was played one way. Fast-forward 20 years and you have different players. You still have the Iginlas & Co., but you also have your Jagrs. Jagr's not just big. His effectiveness is similar to that of the power forwards that defined the term in the 80s and 90s. They wore down the opposition. Often their style of play, and size, helped them control the play down low. They often parked in front of the net and waited for a guy like Gretzky, or Oates to get them the puck. Jagr's not too disimilar to these guys. Jagr controls the puck and throws guys off him. These guys chase him around the ice, clutching and grabbing him. He tires these guys as he uses his body to shield the puck from opposing defenders. He cannot be knocked off the puck easily. He cannot be controlled by one guy. He uses power as an advantage, which in my book, is part of the power forward definition. Unlike a Bure, who used pure speed mostly, whether going up and down the ice or on the cycle.
I really think there's more to being a powerfoward than simply being offensive and having size, even if a player does utilize that size effectively. I think of a player who plays with a nasty edge and who's going to be doing the dirty work in the corners and infront of the net.
Jagr utilizes his size very well to protect the puck, Jagr at 5'11" 190lbs isn't nearly the player that he is at 6'3" 230 lbs, even with the same skill set. That being said, he's never been a player that looks to make a hit or consistently goes to the front of the net.
I usually think of a pre-Moore incident Bertuzzi as the model.
It's really a hard type of player to find, atleast on the elite level. Most of the guys you think of (Bertuzzi, Shanahan, Tkachuk, Lindros) really no longer play that way, and while there are a lot of big and talented young fowards out there, few of them strike me as being true power fowards. Ovechkin certainly comes to mind, but after that I can't roll out alot of big, nasty fowards with elite talent. Nash is often reffered to that way, but I've never seen him as having a nasty edge. Kovalchuk is big but he's not looking to hit you. I know there's probably an obvious example or two that are slipping my mind, but I doubt there are more than 10 elite, true power fowards left in the league.
edit: I'll add Nathan Horton to the list of guys who could turn into an elite Power Foward, if he stays healthy.
My thoughts EXACTLY... J. Ward is an elite AHL power forward, so we have one... maybe Malik also.
I'm not sure why a PF needs to play with a nasty edge. I think most would agree that the John Leclair of the 1990s was a power forward, and I wouldn't say he played with much of a snarl. He'd throw the body around a bit, but he really used his body effectively and sat in front of the net like an immovable object.
Power Forward is a Mack truck that can not only race, but also turn, brake and go fast in reverse while fully loaded.
Bid strong guys were usually employed by construction and other heavy labour industries. They started coming to various sports since excavators eliminated the necessity of their services. However they couldn't make it, hockey in particular, up until coaches had started being paid better, so they could have teach them up to elite level.
Power forward is longer to develop only because small and agile kids are beter players. Big guys are just good athletes at best i.e. they usually do not posess talent. Player with less talent, like any craftsman as a matter of fact, could acheve the same as a talented one with hard work and time spent. That where the need for additional time is coming from.
Sure, players like Messier, Jarg and, okay I give to you, Howe were talented to begin with enough not endure the long period players like Jessiman might require.
would disagree with you in terms of why it takes longer for them to develop. I think it's been said in a bunch of different ways thus far. And I agree, and to paraphrase what another poster said around page 1, the big guys are used to bullying their way against smaller guys in the lower leagues. The NHL is a big jump for the AHL, and the AHL is a pretty big step from juniors. It takes a while to get the strength necessary to play the type of game the power forward was successful playing. Growing kids are usually bigger and stronger at 25 than they are at 20/21, assuming a strict workout regimen (or not much of one at all even). Hence, many do develop around that time.
That does also go for Jessiman. Unfortunately with Jessiman, he didn't have the type of season one would've like for him to have had last year. Most successful power forwards do take a bigger step than he had. Perhaps the injury the previous year didn't help and thus he was a year back, who knows, by we'll see this season.
Power forward is longer to develop only because small and agile kids are beter players. Big guys are just good athletes at best i.e. they usually do not posess talent.
Come on. Lindros....Maryo.....stating that smaller means better players and bigger players do not possess talent is ridiculous.
Quote:
Sure, players like Messier, Jarg and, okay I give to you, Howe were talented to begin with enough not endure the long period players like Jessiman might require.
You're making it seem that Jessiman does not have talent. He's got plenty of it. Lack of talent is not what is holding him back.
the big guys are used to bullying their way against smaller guys in the lower leagues.
But for what it is worth, I agree. Bigger players are used to being the big bad on the ice. That serves them well in high school, juniors and college. However, once they get to even the AHL level, they are not automatically the biggest and baddest on the block. They then have to learn how to use their other talents. They need an adjustment period in which they learn to play a game in which every player on the ice may be as big as them.
But he was really his era's Messier. Neither guy was the most skilled player in the league, but players were scared to death to play against them. They'd think nothing of knocking your teeth right down your throat and then go out and score 2 goals against you.
Re: Gordie Howe
Couldn't agree with your comment more. Meanest player ever to play the game.
What I don't think some people understand is that NHL players today are 40-50 pounds heavier and 2-3 inches taller than those who proceeded them 50 years ago. I remember Emile Francis once lamenting that the Rangers didn't have a single 200 pound player. By my count, they have 21 now. At 245, Jagr is 30 pounds heavier than Moose Vasko, the heaviest player in the NHL in 1962. Lot bigger boys, lot different game.
I'm not sure why a PF needs to play with a nasty edge. I think most would agree that the John Leclair of the 1990s was a power forward, and I wouldn't say he played with much of a snarl. He'd throw the body around a bit, but he really used his body effectively and sat in front of the net like an immovable object.
I guess he doesn't really need to be downright nasty, but I do think he should use his body agressively. For example: I would consider the way Jagr uses his size to be passive, he's using it to keep defenders away from the puck.
I think if your going to be a power foward then you have to be actively using your size, ie. throwing some hits and creating space for yourself in front of the net. You should be making yourself physically felt on the ice. Ideally I do think that a power foward should be alittle nasty, but Leclair is a good example of a player that wasn't looking to hit everything under the sun but did clear room for himself very effectively. However, there is definetly a fear factor that comes to mind when you think of the classical powerfoward, and I don't think leclair ever had that.
It really comes down the opinion (and we're really splitting hairs here.) Plus, as edge pointed out, the kind of player that I'm talking about is really a dying breed, so I might have to change my definition a bit.
Couldn't agree with your comment more. Meanest player ever to play the game.
What I don't think some people understand is that NHL players today are 40-50 pounds heavier and 2-3 inches taller than those who proceeded them 50 years ago. I remember Emile Francis once lamenting that the Rangers didn't have a single 200 pound player. By my count, they have 21 now. At 245, Jagr is 30 pounds heavier than Moose Vasko, the heaviest player in the NHL in 1962. Lot bigger boys, lot different game.
I remember that being illustrated years ago in the Messier/Lindros battles. Messier's old nicknames was Moose and here he was dwarfed and outpowered by a center. Messier went from being a big power center to a slightly above average sized player in his later years.
The NHL average as of a few years ago was what? 6'1, close to 200 pounds?
People forget that it wasn't more than 12 years ago that goalies over 6'1 were pretty uncommon.
I remember that being illustrated years ago in the Messier/Lindros battles. Messier's old nicknames was Moose and here he was dwarfed and outpowered by a center. Messier went from being a big power center to a slightly above average sized player in his later years.
The NHL average as of a few years ago was what? 6'1, close to 200 pounds?
People forget that it wasn't more than 12 years ago that goalies over 6'1 were pretty uncommon.
the irony is that, while players have gotten bigger, the game was nastier when it was smaller (though I don't believe there's any correlation here, it's most likely a result of the way the game has been managed since the early 90's.)
