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Best player without a hart

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Old
08-02-2006, 06:52 PM
  #26
schwartzy
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i agree with most of peoples pics here....

i think we should through teams into the mix as well. my vote is for Ottawa - super talented team with lots of great players that lack heart, especially in the spring

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Old
08-02-2006, 08:46 PM
  #27
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1.Yzerman never won the Hart due to the Gretzky/Lemiuex race of the late 80's and early 90's....Federov Hart Trophy in 1994 was a surprise though..Ray Sheppard scored 50 goals with him that year for christ sakes!..if Yzerman was healthy enough that year who knows right?

2. Doug Harvey should've won at least a Hart but then the Canadiens were winning the cup mostly every year and Harvey got only the Norris, he was the ANCHOR on the Canadiens defense...

3. Marcel Dionne should've won ONE Hart Trophy, he won two PEARSONS and ONE Art Ross so ONE Hart would've been good...1980 where he won the Art Ross he SHOULD'VE won the Hart that year, 1981 was also another year he could've won it considering the fact he made the first 100 point scoring line in the NHL...no love for the beav?

4. Patrick Roy, Ken Dryden, Rogie Vachon...at some point in their careers should've won the Hart

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08-02-2006, 09:08 PM
  #28
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Old
08-03-2006, 07:29 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch View Post
Yzerman?

Heck, Fedorov WON a Hart.

Dionne was a French Canadian Gretzky.
Product of the West.

Clearly Harvey (or Larry or Patrick, maybe Potvin).
No love for French Canadians who don't chain smoke or have ED??

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Old
08-03-2006, 08:08 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMaiden View Post
1.Yzerman never won the Hart due to the Gretzky/Lemiuex race of the late 80's and early 90's....Federov Hart Trophy in 1994 was a surprise though..Ray Sheppard scored 50 goals with him that year for christ sakes!..if Yzerman was healthy enough that year who knows right?

2. Doug Harvey should've won at least a Hart but then the Canadiens were winning the cup mostly every year and Harvey got only the Norris, he was the ANCHOR on the Canadiens defense...

3. Marcel Dionne should've won ONE Hart Trophy, he won two PEARSONS and ONE Art Ross so ONE Hart would've been good...1980 where he won the Art Ross he SHOULD'VE won the Hart that year, 1981 was also another year he could've won it considering the fact he made the first 100 point scoring line in the NHL...no love for the beav?

4. Patrick Roy, Ken Dryden, Rogie Vachon...at some point in their careers should've won the Hart
Dionne had a great year in 81, but Gretzky slaughtered the points record, so hard to argue his selection.

I'm not sure Roy ever had a regular season that was truly Hart worthy and I'd love to know what year Rogie was shortchanged

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Old
08-03-2006, 09:13 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMaiden View Post
1.Yzerman never won the Hart due to the Gretzky/Lemiuex race of the late 80's and early 90's....Federov Hart Trophy in 1994 was a surprise though..Ray Sheppard scored 50 goals with him that year for christ sakes!..if Yzerman was healthy enough that year who knows right?

2. Doug Harvey should've won at least a Hart but then the Canadiens were winning the cup mostly every year and Harvey got only the Norris, he was the ANCHOR on the Canadiens defense...

3. Marcel Dionne should've won ONE Hart Trophy, he won two PEARSONS and ONE Art Ross so ONE Hart would've been good...1980 where he won the Art Ross he SHOULD'VE won the Hart that year, 1981 was also another year he could've won it considering the fact he made the first 100 point scoring line in the NHL...no love for the beav?

4. Patrick Roy, Ken Dryden, Rogie Vachon...at some point in their careers should've won the Hart
While everyone remembers Yzerman`s `88-`89 season, a lot of people forget that the year before in `87-`88 he was having a phenomenal year and was getting a lot of support for MVP consideration, but late in the season his knee collided with a goal post and he missed the final 16 games. The strange part was right after he got injured, Detroit put together a really impressive winning streak. It was likely only because of Jacques Demers motivational skills; but that streak with Yzerman on the shelf likely killed his Hart chances that year. Had they gone on a losing streak, then he would`ve looked more valuable.

I think Dionne deserved the Hart in `79-`80, but no way in `80-`81 when Gretzky breaks the all-time single-season points record pretty much single-handedly (nobody else on Edmonton had even half as many points).

As for the 3 goalies: Vachon was outstanding in `74-`75 and finished 2nd to Clarke; Dryden suffered from this ridiculous belief in the 70s that "any goalie could do that well on Montreal". Patrick Roy, in my opinion, deserved the Hart in `01-`02 over Theodore or Iginla. Colorado`s offence totally disappeared that season, but they still finished high due to Roy. There was one stretch where they only scored 4 goals in 3 games, but Roy still won those three games. It seemed there were a lot of 2-0 Av wins that year. But Theodore was better in the last month and that`s what the voters remembered.

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Old
08-04-2006, 03:47 AM
  #32
Nalyd Psycho
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One weird one.

1928-29:

Roy Worters, a goalie, wins the Hart. That's fine, good player, great year.

But, he wasn't the best goalie that year. George Hainsworth was, with the single best season an NHL goalie has ever had.

Worters-16-13-9, 13so, 1.21gaa
Hainsworth-22-7-15, 22so(Single season record, average of 1 every 2 games), 0.92gaa (I believe, also a single season record.) and, unreliable (Wikipedia) a .98save %

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Old
08-04-2006, 04:42 AM
  #33
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Yzerman

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Old
08-04-2006, 07:33 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
One weird one.

1928-29:

Roy Worters, a goalie, wins the Hart. That's fine, good player, great year.

But, he wasn't the best goalie that year. George Hainsworth was, with the single best season an NHL goalie has ever had.

Worters-16-13-9, 13so, 1.21gaa
Hainsworth-22-7-15, 22so(Single season record, average of 1 every 2 games), 0.92gaa (I believe, also a single season record.) and, unreliable (Wikipedia) a .98save %
The Hart is for being the most valuable to your team. Hainsworth's Canadians finished first in the 5 team Canadian Division & had the moist goals for. Worters team finished second with the least goals for after finishing last in 28 (Canadians had also finished first in 28). The Hart voters in the earlier days voted the award the way it was defined especially as regards Goalies, Rayner won in 1950 and Rollins in 1954 despite not having great statistics but they both played on bad teams.

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Old
08-04-2006, 08:31 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
One weird one.

1928-29:

Roy Worters, a goalie, wins the Hart. That's fine, good player, great year.

But, he wasn't the best goalie that year. George Hainsworth was, with the single best season an NHL goalie has ever had.

Worters-16-13-9, 13so, 1.21gaa
Hainsworth-22-7-15, 22so(Single season record, average of 1 every 2 games), 0.92gaa (I believe, also a single season record.) and, unreliable (Wikipedia) a .98save %
It's not so much that he didn't win but that he wasn't in the top 5 is weird. Also note a goalie and 3 D in the top 5, with the only forward being the league scoring leader.

1928-29
HART: (310)
1. Roy Worters, NYA G 74
2. Ace Bailey, Tor RW 64
3. Eddie Shore, Bos D 62
4. Sylvio Mantha, Mtl D 60
5. King Clancy, Ott D 50

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Old
08-04-2006, 08:56 AM
  #36
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Yashin






Oh, wait...
Thought this thread was about the best player without a heart.


Last edited by YoungJames: 08-04-2006 at 09:31 AM.
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Old
08-04-2006, 09:49 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
While everyone remembers Yzerman`s `88-`89 season, a lot of people forget that the year before in `87-`88 he was having a phenomenal year and was getting a lot of support for MVP consideration, but late in the season his knee collided with a goal post and he missed the final 16 games. The strange part was right after he got injured, Detroit put together a really impressive winning streak. It was likely only because of Jacques Demers motivational skills; but that streak with Yzerman on the shelf likely killed his Hart chances that year. Had they gone on a losing streak, then he would`ve looked more valuable.

I think Dionne deserved the Hart in `79-`80, but no way in `80-`81 when Gretzky breaks the all-time single-season points record pretty much single-handedly (nobody else on Edmonton had even half as many points).

As for the 3 goalies: Vachon was outstanding in `74-`75 and finished 2nd to Clarke; Dryden suffered from this ridiculous belief in the 70s that "any goalie could do that well on Montreal". Patrick Roy, in my opinion, deserved the Hart in `01-`02 over Theodore or Iginla. Colorado`s offence totally disappeared that season, but they still finished high due to Roy. There was one stretch where they only scored 4 goals in 3 games, but Roy still won those three games. It seemed there were a lot of 2-0 Av wins that year. But Theodore was better in the last month and that`s what the voters remembered.
I have to agree here. Gretzky was a very legit 79/80 Hart winner but of all his Hart trophies, including the one he won over Mario this is the one with the most legit other candidate. Dionne could have won this year for sure and it would not have been a mistake. Sure Gretzky deserved it but so did Dionne.

Yzerman's coming out year was foiled by injuries. He was regarded as so huge that year that with 16 more games and 30 more points he could have had a legit and possible run at the Hart. That was the year Probert got his 29 goals and 398 PIMS. If Yzerman is not injured Probie probably gets at least one more goal for 30 and 300+ PIMS as well.

That was the year Yzerman became a huge star. And started to be regarded as among the best forwards in the NHL behind only Wayne, Messier and Mario.

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Old
08-04-2006, 04:58 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
How can anybody choose Yzerman here? His best years were in the late 80s to late 90s. The game back then was sooooo inferior. Retards on ice! The top players of today are so much faster and stronger than Yzerman was in his prime.

The obvious answer here is Petr Prucha. If you sent him back to the 1990s, he`d score 500 goals a season.
Well I definitely choose Yzerman. He just played on the wrong team in the wrong era. He would've won a bunch of hart trophies in another era on a different team. Unfortunately not winning any hart trophies, injuries, and playing in the weak era of hockey in the 80's and 90's has really hurt his career. In three years from now there will probably be a topic titled best player to not make it into the HOF and once again Yzerman will be topping the list.

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08-04-2006, 06:00 PM
  #39
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I'd be very surprised if Yzerman doesn't make HOF.

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08-04-2006, 06:22 PM
  #40
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best player without a hart? - the tin man of course -

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08-04-2006, 06:32 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by SGY19 View Post
Well I definitely choose Yzerman. He just played on the wrong team in the wrong era. He would've won a bunch of hart trophies in another era on a different team. Unfortunately not winning any hart trophies, injuries, and playing in the weak era of hockey in the 80's and 90's has really hurt his career. In three years from now there will probably be a topic titled best player to not make it into the HOF and once again Yzerman will be topping the list.
Do you just mean in 3 years he wont make it, or ever?

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08-04-2006, 09:10 PM
  #42
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Do you just mean in 3 years he wont make it, or ever?
I'm not sure what other players will be elgible to get in at the same time as Yzerman, but it wouldn't surprised me if he gets overlooked. Yzerman was always getting overlooked during his career for awards, all-star selections, and even team Canada, etc. Alot of great players don't get in. Look at Cicarelli, Gilmour, Housley, Richter, and Barasso. These guys have not gotten in yet.

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08-04-2006, 09:59 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
1. Sawchuk
2. Roy
3. Hall
4. Harvey
I agree except for the order


1. Harvey
2. Sawchuk
3. Roy
4. Glenn Hall

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08-04-2006, 10:36 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by SGY19 View Post
I'm not sure what other players will be elgible to get in at the same time as Yzerman, but it wouldn't surprised me if he gets overlooked. Yzerman was always getting overlooked during his career for awards, all-star selections, and even team Canada, etc. Alot of great players don't get in. Look at Cicarelli, Gilmour, Housley, Richter, and Barasso. These guys have not gotten in yet.
Yzerman is head and shoulders above any of the guys you named. Its not even close. The only reason Yzerman got passed up for so many of those things were that his best scoring years were up against Wayne and Mario. He's a first ballot Hall of Famer without question.

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08-04-2006, 10:43 PM
  #45
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Yzerman is head and shoulders above any of the guys you named. Its not even close. The only reason Yzerman got passed up for so many of those things were that his best scoring years were up against Wayne and Mario. He's a first ballot Hall of Famer without question.
i would even go so far as to say stevie y jumps the queue and goes into the hall a la mario and wayne - right away - no waiting period

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08-04-2006, 11:34 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SGY19 View Post
I'm not sure what other players will be elgible to get in at the same time as Yzerman, but it wouldn't surprised me if he gets overlooked. Yzerman was always getting overlooked during his career for awards, all-star selections, and even team Canada, etc. Alot of great players don't get in. Look at Cicarelli, Gilmour, Housley, Richter, and Barasso. These guys have not gotten in yet.
You're joking right?

The other guys you mentioned, with the exception of Gilmour, don't deserve to get in. That's why they aren't in.

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Old
08-05-2006, 02:50 AM
  #47
Nalyd Psycho
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The Hart is for being the most valuable to your team. Hainsworth's Canadians finished first in the 5 team Canadian Division & had the moist goals for. Worters team finished second with the least goals for after finishing last in 28 (Canadians had also finished first in 28). The Hart voters in the earlier days voted the award the way it was defined especially as regards Goalies, Rayner won in 1950 and Rollins in 1954 despite not having great statistics but they both played on bad teams.
That's great, and I wish that was more common nowadays. But, I can't help but think, 22 sos, 15 ties. Hainsworth was pulling his weight alot of nights where the forwards weren't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
It's not so much that he didn't win but that he wasn't in the top 5 is weird. Also note a goalie and 3 D in the top 5, with the only forward being the league scoring leader.

1928-29
HART: (310)
1. Roy Worters, NYA G 74
2. Ace Bailey, Tor RW 64
3. Eddie Shore, Bos D 62
4. Sylvio Mantha, Mtl D 60
5. King Clancy, Ott D 50
That is crazy.

It's just weird, the single greatest season by a goalie ever, didn't garner the MVP. I wonder if the media realized how increadible a year it was back then.

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Old
08-05-2006, 04:16 AM
  #48
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A: "Who do you think was the best player without a Hart?"
B: "That's easy. Bobby Clarke."
A: "Are you kidding me? Clarke had three Harts!"
B: "Huh?... ah, I get it, 'Hart', no letter e."

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Old
08-05-2006, 05:47 AM
  #49
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i would even go so far as to say stevie y jumps the queue and goes into the hall a la mario and wayne - right away - no waiting period
They don`t do that anymore, but even if they did I don`t think Yzerman is quite good enough for that honour. He`ll deservedly get in his first shot though, but he`s not in the same class as say, Messier.

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Old
08-06-2006, 07:32 AM
  #50
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They don`t do that anymore, but even if they did I don`t think Yzerman is quite good enough for that honour. He`ll deservedly get in his first shot though, but he`s not in the same class as say, Messier.
So now you're saying Yzerman should get in the HOF? Just the other today you said he was far inferior to today's players because he played in the 80's and 90's. What did you call the players that played in his era?

Here's you're quote:
Quote:
How can anybody choose Yzerman here? His best years were in the late 80s to late 90s. The game back then was sooooo inferior. Retards on ice! The top players of today are so much faster and stronger than Yzerman was in his prime.

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