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#1 in 2004 - Ovechkin or Crosby??

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Old
11-13-2003, 11:46 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kryoptix
but still ... lots of Q players put up good # .. and didn't even made the NHL..
Same goes for the other league as well though. Thing is every league has these type of players, the QMJHL use to be an offensive league but is down starting to really get some quality d-men and the league is tighter checking and more trap than it was before. Everyone still has the thought that it is an offensive league with no defense still but that is false just in the last 3 years the league has changed alot but the only thing which hasn't changed is the opinoins of people who don't see the QMJHL but rather base it off the stereo type that it once was.

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11-13-2003, 11:48 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La-La-Laprise
DR_Chimera -- Get your facts straight, the Q isnt anymore high scoring than the OHL.

If you want proof just look at last years and this years goals per game.
Depends on the teams...
I agree that it's no longer the same is it used to be, but regardless, there is less talent which is proven by the entry draft results.

The QMJHL is undoubtedly last in terms of player quality in the CHL.

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11-13-2003, 11:51 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan
It is a logical fallacy to compare the three leagues by goals per game.

Theoretically, the Q could be much more offensive in style, but that might not be reflected in goals per game because the forwards are not as skilled as in the other 2 leagues, or because the goalies are better.

If you use virtually any other comparable, for example the number of players drafted into the NHL or the number of Memorial Cups won, those statistics clearly show that the Q lags behind the other 2 leagues in "quality" (however you want to define that word). Referring back to the draft for a moment, I find it amazing that the Q has NEVER been better than third place (vs. the O and Dub) for the number of players drafted in the 30+ years that the NHL draft has been held.

The point is that a special player like Crosby would be amazing in all three leagues, but I suspect he wouldn't be getting 2+ points per game in the other 2 leagues, simply because the players he is competing against would be better on average.

Look around the NHL. Look at the best young players, then tell me who lags.

NHL scouts need to stop drafting this big good for nothing players. Look at all the smaller Q players who are playing amazing in the NHL right now.

If you look at 2003 draft class the Q had 2-3 less players picked than the OHL and WHL so the times are changing.

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11-13-2003, 11:52 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Dr_Chimera
Depends on the teams...
I agree that it's no longer the same is it used to be, but regardless, there is less talent which is proven by the entry draft results.

The QMJHL is undoubtedly last in terms of player quality in the CHL.
NHL draft big players...WHL and OHL have bigger players, dont you think that could play a role?

Look around the NHL at all the great yuoung players from Q, dont tell me the talent level isnt on par.

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11-13-2003, 11:54 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan
The point is that a special player like Crosby would be amazing in all three leagues, but I suspect he wouldn't be getting 2+ points per game in the other 2 leagues, simply because the players he is competing against would be better on average.

I want to know how the players in the other two leagues are better on average. The QMJHL has produced some of the best NHLers in todays league with Lecavalier, Tanguay, Gagne, Richards, Bergeron, Fleury, Denis, Nagy, Theodore, Daze, King, Abid, Luongo, Gauthier, Hemsky, Briere, Dumont, Giguere and the list goes on and on. For the last few years the QMJHL has either won in the Memorial Cup or made the finals as well, in the interleague games we proved to be just as good if not better than the other teams as well. Thing is IMO all three league as just as good as one another but each one offers a different type of play and player that they specialize in.

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11-13-2003, 12:06 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La-La-Laprise
DR_Chimera -- Get your facts straight, the Q isnt anymore high scoring than the OHL.

If you want proof just look at last years and this years goals per game.
nor is it less talented in the player pool as well like he said. SO how did the Q win the Memorial cup twice in a few years and make it to the finals in others just recently if our talent is not of great. Why is Tanguay leading the NHL in scoring and Lecavalier is considered one of the best young players in the game. Hemsky, Bergeron, Nagy, Gagne, are all some of the best young talents in the game today. When is the last time someone got over a 170 points in the QMJHL I think it was Brad Richards, that has been a few years, Lasy year the two big offensivly gifted guys were Corey Locke and Foy from Ottawa of the OHL, these are two guys who could be the type to put up good numbers in junior but not the NHL, so based on someones elses theory that would be the overall talent level in the OHL must be less than the other two league because of Locke and Foy out scoring everyone in the CHL and the OHL having a very very high goals for and goals against average last year. Thats what it must be then...yeah

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11-13-2003, 12:10 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan
It is a logical fallacy to compare the three leagues by goals per game.

Theoretically, the Q could be much more offensive in style, but that might not be reflected in goals per game because the forwards are not as skilled as in the other 2 leagues, or because the goalies are better.

If you use virtually any other comparable, for example the number of players drafted into the NHL or the number of Memorial Cups won, those statistics clearly show that the Q lags behind the other 2 leagues in "quality" (however you want to define that word). Referring back to the draft for a moment, I find it amazing that the Q has NEVER been better than third place (vs. the O and Dub) for the number of players drafted in the 30+ years that the NHL draft has been held.

The point is that a special player like Crosby would be amazing in all three leagues, but I suspect he wouldn't be getting 2+ points per game in the other 2 leagues, simply because the players he is competing against would be better on average.
Well said - I agree. QMJHL remains more offense-oriented than the others, this should not be argued, despite the fact that scoring is down, so yes Crosby is benefitting, but that is not to say that something should be taken away from his accomplishments, but people should not get the wrong idea (eg that he's a lemieux-clone).

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11-13-2003, 12:10 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR469
that is true but the original post said "If they were both available next spring in 2004....who would you select??"

obviously ovechkin is #1 in 2004 and crosby is #1 in 2005, but IF, as part of a hypothetical question, they were available the same year and you had to choose between the 2 which would you take
oh shoot guess i should have been paying closer attention there

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11-13-2003, 12:13 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Chimera
Well said - I agree. QMJHL remains more offense-oriented than the others, this should not be argued, despite the fact that scoring is down, so yes Crosby is benefitting, but that is not to say that something should be taken away from his accomplishments, but people should not get the wrong idea (eg that he's a lemieux-clone).
I guess if the goalies in the Q are on average better (since more are drafted into the NHL, using your train of thought) than shouldnt it be HARDER for Crosby and others to score, hense his 2 ppg pace equal to 2 ppg in the OHL or WHL?

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11-13-2003, 12:16 PM
  #35
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At this point, you'd have to be out of your mind to pass on Ovechkin.

But I agree with what a lot seem to be saying. Even though we are playing along for the sake of this discussion, I don't think it's a fair comparison.

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11-13-2003, 12:17 PM
  #36
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The goalies in the Q develop faster due to more shots than you would normally find in the O or the W. The Q usually turns out offensive players, the W more defensemen/defensive minded players (some offensive, too) while the O is more of a two way game.

Seems silly to be able to categorize them but....

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11-13-2003, 12:19 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by SCHL Commish
The goalies in the Q develop faster due to more shots than you would normally find in the O or the W. The Q usually turns out offensive players, the W more defensemen/defensive minded players (some offensive, too) while the O is more of a two way game.

Seems silly to be able to categorize them but....
You are mostly right. I think the last 3 dmen that the Q have produced are Gauthier, Girard and Fischer. In the recent years.

There is a nice crop of good NHL caliber dmen coming up through the Q now.

All 3 leagues are pretty well equal. Ithas just taken NHL scouts longer to realize the talent level in Quebec.

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11-13-2003, 12:36 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosefan
nor is it less talented in the player pool as well like he said. SO how did the Q win the Memorial cup twice in a few years and make it to the finals in others just recently if our talent is not of great. Why is Tanguay leading the NHL in scoring and Lecavalier is considered one of the best young players in the game. Hemsky, Bergeron, Nagy, Gagne, are all some of the best young talents in the game today. When is the last time someone got over a 170 points in the QMJHL I think it was Brad Richards, that has been a few years, Lasy year the two big offensivly gifted guys were Corey Locke and Foy from Ottawa of the OHL, these are two guys who could be the type to put up good numbers in junior but not the NHL, so based on someones elses theory that would be the overall talent level in the OHL must be less than the other two league because of Locke and Foy out scoring everyone in the CHL and the OHL having a very very high goals for and goals against average last year. Thats what it must be then...yeah
It's the concept of chemistry. I live right near Hull and see the Olympiques play all the time - I'll be damned if they are top three in skill in the CHL - they are not. It is a very well-coached, mature team (to this day), but it was not filled with a ton of NHL-caliber guys and not a single star-caliber player last year.

The Q still produces it's share of good prospects, but to a much lesser degree than ever before. Despite the Lecavaliers and the Gagnes, there is a definite lacking.

And you're completely missing the point on the concept of offense and skill. No one claims that the more you score, the less skill there is, but there are holes exposed in the QMJHL which one can see in draft results a consistent lack of elite talent over the past several years (goalies aside).

I admit that I rushed to judgement when I argued scoring - that is a flawed point.

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11-13-2003, 12:44 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La-La-Laprise
You are mostly right. I think the last 3 dmen that the Q have produced are Gauthier, Girard and Fischer. In the recent years.

There is a nice crop of good NHL caliber dmen coming up through the Q now.

All 3 leagues are pretty well equal. Ithas just taken NHL scouts longer to realize the talent level in Quebec.
I have no idea what your last sentence means. What... there are not as many flights that scouts can take to Quebec league cities as to other cities??

We can all offer our opinions on which of the 3 CHL leagues has more quality players, but the indisputable facts are as follows:

1. In the 30+ year history of the NHL Entry draft, the Q has NEVER had more players drafted than either the O or the Dub. Not once. This would be statistically impossible to explain as just coincidence. And the trend is not improving for the Q; it goes up and down, but there is not a long term trend towards a higher proportion of Q players being drafted.

2. Of the current top 30 scorers in the NHL, two of them came from the Q (one of them was a Euro). Yes, there are a lot of great young potential stars from the Q. But more than from the other leagues? No. Look at the top scorers in the AHL. There is a disproportionately low representation of Q players there as well.

I am hesitant to use inter-league games or Memorial Cups as proof of anything, as one-off games among single teams do not represent a league as a whole.

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11-13-2003, 12:48 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La-La-Laprise
I guess if the goalies in the Q are on average better (since more are drafted into the NHL, using your train of thought) than shouldnt it be HARDER for Crosby and others to score, hense his 2 ppg pace equal to 2 ppg in the OHL or WHL?

I can't say whether they are indeed better on average or not... Maybe they aren't.

What I do know is that the QMJHL produces more blue-chip goalies. But are the league's netminders on par with the O and the W "on average"? Maybe, maybe not.

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11-13-2003, 12:54 PM
  #41
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As many posters have stated, it's impossible to accurately predict who will be better. Ovechkin is 2 years older and they are developing in vastly different leagues.
At this point I'd go with Ovechkin, simply because he has outdone Crosby on the international stage (playing against top end talent in their respective age groups, or a year older). Then again, Crosby has only played in 1 international tourney and hasn't had as many opportunities to prove himself.


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11-13-2003, 01:03 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Chimera
Well, it is common knowledge that the QMJHL is much less defense-oriented than the other leagues. If those stats are just based on this season, then it is young. Q is also a league with players of lesser talent (aside from the goalies), so I doubt he'd keep up this pace in the O or the W.
Ragardless, my point was regarding consistency which has yet to be determined.
And if you look back at the history of the QMJHL and some of the 16, 17-year old phenoms who put up awesome early numbers, you don't only come up with a name like Lemieux, but you'll come up with a name like Alexandre Daigle..
Let me just defend my point here.

Yes, the scoring is down, BUT the trap is up. Actually the trap is up in all of the three leagues in the CHL. The Q is no different.

My point was simple - the Q has never been a great defensive league and it remains a sub-par defensive league. Just because there is more of the trap does not mean that there is better defense - it is simply a shifting of the playing style, different coaching, etc.

In a way like the NHL has shifted to a much more defensive style. Are the defenders better all of a sudden? No, absolutely not.

I see a consistent trap in each of these leagues, but QMJHL still sticks out at me as the one with the most holes defensively - I see less blue-chip talent and more players that prefer the offensive to the defensive. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but simply a reality of the league.

Crosby benefits. I defend my statement - he benefits offensively by playing the QMJHL. He would not put up the same figures as an OHLer or a WHLer.

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11-13-2003, 01:42 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan
I have no idea what your last sentence means. What... there are not as many flights that scouts can take to Quebec league cities as to other cities??

We can all offer our opinions on which of the 3 CHL leagues has more quality players, but the indisputable facts are as follows:

1. In the 30+ year history of the NHL Entry draft, the Q has NEVER had more players drafted than either the O or the Dub. Not once. This would be statistically impossible to explain as just coincidence. And the trend is not improving for the Q; it goes up and down, but there is not a long term trend towards a higher proportion of Q players being drafted.

2. Of the current top 30 scorers in the NHL, two of them came from the Q (one of them was a Euro). Yes, there are a lot of great young potential stars from the Q. But more than from the other leagues? No. Look at the top scorers in the AHL. There is a disproportionately low representation of Q players there as well.

I am hesitant to use inter-league games or Memorial Cups as proof of anything, as one-off games among single teams do not represent a league as a whole.
My last statment meant that the NHL scoutds havent really been giving the Q its due. How else do you explain the insane amount of later round steals from Q?

Why was Jason King and Brandon Reid 7th round picks?? Those are just 2 examples, but in the last few drafts more and more Q guys are getting picked. I dont know how to explain it, but the NHL scouts have started to pay more attention to the Q, that is what i meant by my last statement.

I am trying to judge which league is better, but the same old stereotypes are being used when talking about the Q. Yes, maybe it is a little bit more wide open than the WHL, that doesnt exactly mean we produce less qualified NHLers.

Last year the Q had 3 less drafted players than the WHL, yet the WHL has 4 more teams to choose from. A little food for thought.

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11-13-2003, 01:44 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Chimera
Let me just defend my point here.

Yes, the scoring is down, BUT the trap is up. Actually the trap is up in all of the three leagues in the CHL. The Q is no different.

My point was simple - the Q has never been a great defensive league and it remains a sub-par defensive league. Just because there is more of the trap does not mean that there is better defense - it is simply a shifting of the playing style, different coaching, etc.

In a way like the NHL has shifted to a much more defensive style. Are the defenders better all of a sudden? No, absolutely not.

I see a consistent trap in each of these leagues, but QMJHL still sticks out at me as the one with the most holes defensively - I see less blue-chip talent and more players that prefer the offensive to the defensive. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but simply a reality of the league.

Crosby benefits. I defend my statement - he benefits offensively by playing the QMJHL. He would not put up the same figures as an OHLer or a WHLer.
Good points, but Locke put up an insane amount of points in the OHL, and of the games on TV i have seen of the 67's last year it seemed like Locke was just running wild on the opponents.

The Q has improved a lot in the defensive aspects of the game in the last 5 years. Most of the coaches use the trap.

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11-13-2003, 01:52 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Chimera
Let me just defend my point here.

Yes, the scoring is down, BUT the trap is up. Actually the trap is up in all of the three leagues in the CHL. The Q is no different.

My point was simple - the Q has never been a great defensive league and it remains a sub-par defensive league. Just because there is more of the trap does not mean that there is better defense - it is simply a shifting of the playing style, different coaching, etc.

In a way like the NHL has shifted to a much more defensive style. Are the defenders better all of a sudden? No, absolutely not.

I see a consistent trap in each of these leagues, but QMJHL still sticks out at me as the one with the most holes defensively - I see less blue-chip talent and more players that prefer the offensive to the defensive. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but simply a reality of the league.

Crosby benefits. I defend my statement - he benefits offensively by playing the QMJHL. He would not put up the same figures as an OHLer or a WHLer.
As much as you argue that point (which I can agree with to a degree) it really doesn't matter.

Does Crosby score more from playing in the Q, perhaps, but look at the history, he is scoring more points than the top Q players from the past at the same age, and in a more defense league than they played in.

It stands to reason that if he were in the W or O that he would be outscoring the previous rookies (except maybe Gretz) from those leagues too. Does that mean he'd have less points? Maybe, but its still something we've never seen before, shouldn't that count?

And don't even try to tell me Crosby couldn't play in the O or W because they have a different style, he could play wherever he likes and he has proven that by past non-Q performances.

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11-13-2003, 01:55 PM
  #46
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The Q is progressing very well ... (getting good defensive prospects)
they are getting better each year ...
I think they will join the other league very soon...

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11-13-2003, 04:54 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kruezer
As much as you argue that point (which I can agree with to a degree) it really doesn't matter.

Does Crosby score more from playing in the Q, perhaps, but look at the history, he is scoring more points than the top Q players from the past at the same age, and in a more defense league than they played in.

It stands to reason that if he were in the W or O that he would be outscoring the previous rookies (except maybe Gretz) from those leagues too. Does that mean he'd have less points? Maybe, but its still something we've never seen before, shouldn't that count?

And don't even try to tell me Crosby couldn't play in the O or W because they have a different style, he could play wherever he likes and he has proven that by past non-Q performances.
After 20 games... Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

And I never said he couldn't play in the O or the W.

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11-13-2003, 05:28 PM
  #48
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Here's my thoughts.

Crosby, as a 16 year old, is leading the QMJHL in scoring. He's playing on a team that was last just one season ago. He's not playing on a line with the teams other best player. He's making mouth dropping plays, scoring 2 points a game and playing excellent defensively. Sidney has played against players older than him since when, Pee Wee? He set the record for points at Shattuck St.Mary's as a 15 year old, he made the Canadian U-17 Team as a 15 year old. He's playing in a league that has produced some of the greatest talents the NHL has ever seen.

If its such a bad league, why are some of the top scorers of all time from it? Does Sidney not have talent but is merely being a leech and taking advantage of pourous defenses? What if Ovechkin went to the Q? Would he all of a sudden be considered less of a talent because he's playing in an "offensive league"?

Its not like Sidney has just started this outburst. As I said earlier, he's been scoring in huge numbers against players older than him for years. Has Alex done that? No. Instead, he is putting up average numbers in albeit a men's league, but how does that bring along his game? He's not dominating, he's not seeing as much ice-time, he's not being able to use his talents to the fullest extent like Crosby is able to. If anything, I'd say the defensive nature of the RSL hinders Alex's devellopment as the lack of defense apparently hurts Sidney's.

Everyone just stop with your Russian/Canadian biasenes and delete all of the ******** threads like these. They go nowhere and accomplish nothing. If they were the same age and in the same draft year, then that would be different, but they're not. From now on, we should stop comparing Euros and North Americans outside of the WJCs because it just turns into a "what league is better" debacle.

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11-13-2003, 06:10 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman

If its such a bad league, why are some of the top scorers of all time from it? Does Sidney not have talent but is merely being a leech and taking advantage of pourous defenses? What if Ovechkin went to the Q? Would he all of a sudden be considered less of a talent because he's playing in an "offensive league"?


Hitman
No one is saying this...

The point is that before Crosby is being compared to the likes of Lemieux, people should take all of that with a grain of salt, because he still has a ways to go in proving himself.

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11-13-2003, 06:21 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Chimera
No one is saying this...

The point is that before Crosby is being compared to the likes of Lemieux, people should take all of that with a grain of salt, because he still has a ways to go in proving himself.
And as of right now, he is on pace for proving it.

Last year when Crosby was tearing it up at SSM, everyone was saying "Oh just wait until he's in junior before you compare him to other stars." He tears it up in QMJHL pre-season its "Its just preseason, wait until the regular season before you compare him." Now, he's tearing it up in the Q, a league dominated by 18 and 19 year olds, and now its "well its an offensive league his numbers are inflated."

The point is that he is putting up better numbers than the 'greats before him. He's on pace to break the 16 year old scoring record, by a fair margin as well. When will people start giving him the credit he is entiltled to. It seems Alex the Great gets a break if he doesn't chew it up because he's playing with men. Crosby can still tear it up with players older than him in the best devellopment league(s) in the world and he still gets shafted on the credit.

Nobody is giving credit where credit's due. Up to now, Crosby has done everything his critics said he wouldn't do, and now that's not good enough.

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