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#1 in 2004 - Ovechkin or Crosby??

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Old
11-13-2003, 08:16 PM
  #51
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I think the whole "dominate a league with older players" thing is overrated anyway. In that respect alone, what Radek Bonk did in the IHL is more impressive than what either of these guys are doing, and I highly doubt anyone expects Bonk to be better than either Ovechkin or Crosby when all is said and done.

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Old
11-13-2003, 08:49 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La-La-Laprise
My last statment meant that the NHL scoutds havent really been giving the Q its due. How else do you explain the insane amount of later round steals from Q?

Why was Jason King and Brandon Reid 7th round picks?? Those are just 2 examples, but in the last few drafts more and more Q guys are getting picked. I dont know how to explain it, but the NHL scouts have started to pay more attention to the Q, that is what i meant by my last statement.

I am trying to judge which league is better, but the same old stereotypes are being used when talking about the Q. Yes, maybe it is a little bit more wide open than the WHL, that doesnt exactly mean we produce less qualified NHLers.

Last year the Q had 3 less drafted players than the WHL, yet the WHL has 4 more teams to choose from. A little food for thought.
Laprise has a point here. The number of 5th+ rounders and free agents making it to the NHL from the QMJHL is considerably higher than that of the other two leagues. For whatever reason (later physical development?) Q players tend to be very good later round bets.

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11-13-2003, 08:55 PM
  #53
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I'll just add another statistic which I think helps support the claim that Crosby's stats are helped by playing in the QMJHL. While it's true that the goals per game for three leagues is similar, traditionally the top scorers in the QMJHL score more than those in the other two leagues.
Here are the number of points you needed to finish in the top ten in scoring in each league for the past 6 years.
ohl whl qmjhl
88 92 101
90 86 113
94 98 113
87 91 116
96 93 109
94 102 102
95 98 106
Other than for the '98 season the elite players in the QMJHL scored more than their counterparts. And while scoring was down last year, there is still a gap present. Regardless, I think Crosby would be putting up a large number of points no matter where he played, but I agree that he does benefit from where he is playing now.

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Old
11-13-2003, 08:59 PM
  #54
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I think as an 18 year old his numbers would be similar no matter what league he was in. But as an undeveloped (physically) 16 year old I would say he has an easier time of it in the Q than in a rougher league like the WHL.

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Old
11-13-2003, 09:09 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
I think as an 18 year old his numbers would be similar no matter what league he was in. But as an undeveloped (physically) 16 year old I would say he has an easier time of it in the Q than in a rougher league like the WHL.
That may be true, but he is apparently 5-11 180-185 when he plays, which really isn't that far of what some great players have played at in the NHL.

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Old
11-13-2003, 09:09 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman
Here's my thoughts.

Crosby, as a 16 year old, is leading the QMJHL in scoring. He's playing on a team that was last just one season ago. He's not playing on a line with the teams other best player. He's making mouth dropping plays, scoring 2 points a game and playing excellent defensively. Sidney has played against players older than him since when, Pee Wee? He set the record for points at Shattuck St.Mary's as a 15 year old, he made the Canadian U-17 Team as a 15 year old. He's playing in a league that has produced some of the greatest talents the NHL has ever seen.

If its such a bad league, why are some of the top scorers of all time from it? Does Sidney not have talent but is merely being a leech and taking advantage of pourous defenses? What if Ovechkin went to the Q? Would he all of a sudden be considered less of a talent because he's playing in an "offensive league"?

Its not like Sidney has just started this outburst. As I said earlier, he's been scoring in huge numbers against players older than him for years. Has Alex done that? No. Instead, he is putting up average numbers in albeit a men's league, but how does that bring along his game? He's not dominating, he's not seeing as much ice-time, he's not being able to use his talents to the fullest extent like Crosby is able to. If anything, I'd say the defensive nature of the RSL hinders Alex's devellopment as the lack of defense apparently hurts Sidney's.

Everyone just stop with your Russian/Canadian biasenes and delete all of the ******** threads like these. They go nowhere and accomplish nothing. If they were the same age and in the same draft year, then that would be different, but they're not. From now on, we should stop comparing Euros and North Americans outside of the WJCs because it just turns into a "what league is better" debacle.

Hitman
Said about as well as it can be...I agree with every word.

There are two problems with these threads (beyond the fact that the minute there are less than 4 threads to speculate about how great "great" really is when it comes to Crosby someone has to put another one up just in case there is a person on the board who might forget Crosby is the greatest prospect in the history of hockey). First - as you say the comparisons of leagues goes nowhere and brings out everyone's homer instinct. Second - it leads to all the hyperbolic descriptions about Crosby and his gifts and how in addition to being the next Gretzky, he is also going to be the best checker, the best penalty killer, the best shot, the best skater, and for all I know the toughest SOB the NHL has ever seen.

We may well be watching the first junior year of the next true "great one" and I think threads that tell us what he is actually doing are great since I don't get to see him very often any more - but these endless comparisons, speculation about the draft, and predictions get pretty tired. Every once in a while, we could give it a rest.

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Old
11-13-2003, 09:17 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
I think as an 18 year old his numbers would be similar no matter what league he was in. But as an undeveloped (physically) 16 year old I would say he has an easier time of it in the Q than in a rougher league like the WHL.

OK, Eppy.....since Brule is putting up a point per game right now in the WHL, I guess you're saying that Crosby could not do the same or even better or possibly even match his 2pts+ that he is putting up in the Q right now? Brule even has the advantage of playing on a slightly better team than Rimouski Oceanic, as the Giants were clearly not as bad as the Oceanic last year. And the last time I checked, Brule wasn't Shaquille O'Neal compared to Crosby, so the undeveloped thing doesn't fly! If that was the case how is Nick Drazenovic surviving in the league this year? I would also hardly say the WHL is a rougher league than the Q or the OHL or vice versa, but I would say the travel is a hell of a lot worse in the WHL than the Q or OHL.

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Old
11-13-2003, 09:22 PM
  #58
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He'd probably be putting up more than Brule, but not 2 a game. I think you are being naive if you don't think the Dub is a more physically demanding league than the Q, or even the O for that matter. The West is well-known for producing punishing, physical d-men in particular.

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Old
11-14-2003, 02:38 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan
I have no idea what your last sentence means. What... there are not as many flights that scouts can take to Quebec league cities as to other cities??

We can all offer our opinions on which of the 3 CHL leagues has more quality players, but the indisputable facts are as follows:

1. In the 30+ year history of the NHL Entry draft, the Q has NEVER had more players drafted than either the O or the Dub. Not once. This would be statistically impossible to explain as just coincidence. And the trend is not improving for the Q; it goes up and down, but there is not a long term trend towards a higher proportion of Q players being drafted.
Don't forget that the Q has less teams (16) than the O (20) and W (19). I don't have the draft numbers in front of me, but if it's true that in the "2003 draft class the Q had 2-3 less players picked than the OHL and WHL," then the Q had the same, or even higher, ratio of NHL drafted players per team. And if the individual Q teams have the same percentage, or higher percentage, of drafted players per team, does it not stand to reason that the Q is just as good as the other two leagues, or even better (depending on the actual percentages)?

And don't forget that the maritimes are fast becoming a credible producer of NHL talent and more and more Americans are going to the Q, increasing that league's talent pool substantially.

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Old
11-14-2003, 06:00 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman

Nobody is giving credit where credit's due. Up to now, Crosby has done everything his critics said he wouldn't do, and now that's not good enough.

I disagree with you there - Crosby is not just getting credit - he's getting too much of it.

And he has very few harsh critics - most people are very impressed with his game, but sensible ones will point out that that overrating him will just give him a big head. And no 16-year old kid who has yet to prove anything (substantial) in his career deserves such treatment.
Even Ovechkin - to a lesser degree (as he's proven more).

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Old
11-14-2003, 06:12 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomsday Device
I'll just add another statistic which I think helps support the claim that Crosby's stats are helped by playing in the QMJHL. While it's true that the goals per game for three leagues is similar, traditionally the top scorers in the QMJHL score more than those in the other two leagues.
Here are the number of points you needed to finish in the top ten in scoring in each league for the past 6 years.
ohl whl qmjhl
88 92 101
90 86 113
94 98 113
87 91 116
96 93 109
94 102 102
95 98 106
Other than for the '98 season the elite players in the QMJHL scored more than their counterparts. And while scoring was down last year, there is still a gap present. Regardless, I think Crosby would be putting up a large number of points no matter where he played, but I agree that he does benefit from where he is playing now.
I see you conveniently left out last years totals when the Q leader had 116 and Foy, Locke had liek 150.

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11-14-2003, 06:15 AM
  #62
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How many games teams play in ohl, whl and qmjhl?

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Old
11-14-2003, 07:45 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slay
How many games teams play in ohl, whl and qmjhl?
lasy year:

ohl = 68
whl = 70
Q = 72

This year Q plays 70 though

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Old
11-14-2003, 07:48 AM
  #64
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I would take Ovechkin ANY day of the week. Crosby may have more talent, who knows, but I think Ovechkin has more character.

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Old
11-14-2003, 09:50 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Chimera
I disagree with you there - Crosby is not just getting credit - he's getting too much of it.

And he has very few harsh critics - most people are very impressed with his game, but sensible ones will point out that that overrating him will just give him a big head. And no 16-year old kid who has yet to prove anything (substantial) in his career deserves such treatment.
Even Ovechkin - to a lesser degree (as he's proven more).
What is he getting too much credit for? Setting a new scoring record at Shattuck-St. Mary's, a high school, as a 15 year old? Dominating at the Canada Winter Games, taking a team full of nobody's farther than they ever have before, making the Canada U-17 team at 15 and being a key player at the tournament. Scoring 2.02 points a game, on pace for the best 16 year old finish in the Q ever, on a team that was last just one season ago? I know it seems like I'm being redundant but it just seems like your Russian glasses fog up all that Sidney's proven.

Does he not deserve any credit for any of these? What has Alex the Great proven at the same age that Sidney hasn't? If anything, its people thinking that Alex has accomplished so much more that takes away from Crosby's accomplishments. Yes people are only saying that Alex will break the WJC scoring records and not Gretzky's, but when the Great One himself says that this kid is the real deal then people really take notice.

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Old
11-14-2003, 09:51 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La-La-Laprise
I see you conveniently left out last years totals when the Q leader had 116 and Foy, Locke had liek 150.
top 10.meaning the 10th scorer. As you can see P.M. Bouchard's 140 point season from 2 years ago is also not there.

Took me alittle time to figure it out but now I know what he did.

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Old
11-14-2003, 09:53 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman
top 10.meaning the 10th scorer. As you can see P.M. Bouchard's 140 point season from 2 years ago is also not there.

Took me alittle time to figure it out but now I know what he did.
Not to mention Gamache's ridiculous season a few years back.

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Old
11-14-2003, 10:52 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman
What is he getting too much credit for? Setting a new scoring record at Shattuck-St. Mary's, a high school, as a 15 year old? Dominating at the Canada Winter Games, taking a team full of nobody's farther than they ever have before, making the Canada U-17 team at 15 and being a key player at the tournament. Scoring 2.02 points a game, on pace for the best 16 year old finish in the Q ever, on a team that was last just one season ago? I know it seems like I'm being redundant but it just seems like your Russian glasses fog up all that Sidney's proven.

Does he not deserve any credit for any of these? What has Alex the Great proven at the same age that Sidney hasn't? If anything, its people thinking that Alex has accomplished so much more that takes away from Crosby's accomplishments. Yes people are only saying that Alex will break the WJC scoring records and not Gretzky's, but when the Great One himself says that this kid is the real deal then people really take notice.
Man, you're weird. You're reading way too much into my comments.

You said that Crosby doesn't get the credit and I counter by saying that he gets all the credit in the world, more than most professional hockey players. Now how can that possibly be not enough credit? It is undoubtedly too much credit - kind of like LeBron James, but obviously less.

And this has nothing to do with Alexander Ovechkin - I mentioned that Ovechkin is also to an extent overrated, but no one can dispute that he has proven more... That's just common sense - he's older, he's a pro and he's won gold at the WJC's. C'mon.

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11-14-2003, 11:21 AM
  #69
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The Great One also said all kinds of good stuff about Eric Lindros, and look how that whole thing turned out. Ughh. Crosby is only 13 points ahead of the other people in his league even though there is no one in it. The Russian Superleague is the second best league in the world, not Ickle Sydneykins' league. Crosby may be talented but that's not all it takes. Ovechkin didn't even start skating until he was 7 years old, then had to take a break because he no one could take him to the rink, then started playing organized hockey at 9 years old. I bet Sydneykins started earlier than that. It just shows you how hard Ovechkin had to work to become how good he is after starting at a rather late age in comparison with some other great hockey players. Ovechkin asked to play hockey at when he was 5 but had to wait 2 years before he could start. Until then he played with a plastic stick and puck which he shot at the walls of his apartment. Sydneykins probably got just about anything he wanted.

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11-14-2003, 11:37 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa_Rules
The Great One also said all kinds of good stuff about Eric Lindros, and look how that whole thing turned out. Ughh. Crosby is only 13 points ahead of the other people in his league even though there is no one in it. The Russian Superleague is the second best league in the world, not Ickle Sydneykins' league. Crosby may be talented but that's not all it takes. Ovechkin didn't even start skating until he was 7 years old, then had to take a break because he no one could take him to the rink, then started playing organized hockey at 9 years old. I bet Sydneykins started earlier than that. It just shows you how hard Ovechkin had to work to become how good he is after starting at a rather late age in comparison with some other great hockey players. Ovechkin asked to play hockey at when he was 5 but had to wait 2 years before he could start. Until then he played with a plastic stick and puck which he shot at the walls of his apartment. Sydneykins probably got just about anything he wanted.
with reason... Lindros could do it all...I believe he has one of the better points-per-game ratio in NHL history... don't forget, he was a former Hart trophy winner... I don't think the Great One could have predicted how sour his career turned... but Lindros definetaly had what it took to become one of the greats

if he's washed up now, it's mainly due to injuries

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11-14-2003, 12:07 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman
What is he getting too much credit for? Setting a new scoring record at Shattuck-St. Mary's, a high school, as a 15 year old? Dominating at the Canada Winter Games, taking a team full of nobody's farther than they ever have before, making the Canada U-17 team at 15 and being a key player at the tournament. Scoring 2.02 points a game, on pace for the best 16 year old finish in the Q ever, on a team that was last just one season ago? I know it seems like I'm being redundant but it just seems like your Russian glasses fog up all that Sidney's proven.
Right on!! What the kid has accomplished so far has been done only by a select few. Why not get excited about Crosby. It's a prospect board.

What's with all the bullsh!t? The whiners complaining about the hype, the "experts" predicting the future, that he'll be another Daigle or bust of some kind, and it's because he's in the Q that he scores like that. He'd score anywhere. The kid has been awesome!

As for the Q, I don't think any of the 3 major junior leagues are that much better than another.

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Old
11-14-2003, 12:38 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Foppa_Rules
The Great One also said all kinds of good stuff about Eric Lindros, and look how that whole thing turned out. Ughh. Crosby is only 13 points ahead of the other people in his league even though there is no one in it. The Russian Superleague is the second best league in the world, not Ickle Sydneykins' league. Crosby may be talented but that's not all it takes. Ovechkin didn't even start skating until he was 7 years old, then had to take a break because he no one could take him to the rink, then started playing organized hockey at 9 years old. I bet Sydneykins started earlier than that. It just shows you how hard Ovechkin had to work to become how good he is after starting at a rather late age in comparison with some other great hockey players. Ovechkin asked to play hockey at when he was 5 but had to wait 2 years before he could start. Until then he played with a plastic stick and puck which he shot at the walls of his apartment. Sydneykins probably got just about anything he wanted.
What a crock. So, according to you, Ovechkin is better because Crosby started skating earlier, skated more and Ovechkin had a plastic stick and puck! Did you know both of them during their childhood? Tell us what Gretzky said about Lindros.

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Old
11-14-2003, 01:52 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa_Rules
The Great One also said all kinds of good stuff about Eric Lindros, and look how that whole thing turned out.
Ya, all he did was win the Hart Trophy at what? 23? Was one of the most dominating forwards around until concussions pretty much ended his career. Ya he sucked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa_Rules
Ughh. Crosby is only 13 points ahead of the other people in his league even though there is no one in it. The Russian Superleague is the second best league in the world, not Ickle Sydneykins' league. Crosby may be talented but that's not all it takes. Ovechkin didn't even start skating until he was 7 years old, then had to take a break because he no one could take him to the rink, then started playing organized hockey at 9 years old. I bet Sydneykins started earlier than that. It just shows you how hard Ovechkin had to work to become how good he is after starting at a rather late age in comparison with some other great hockey players. Ovechkin asked to play hockey at when he was 5 but had to wait 2 years before he could start. Until then he played with a plastic stick and puck which he shot at the walls of his apartment. Sydneykins probably got just about anything he wanted.
Sidney wanted to play hockey when he was 2, but had to wait 3 years because nobody would let him play hockey so young. Until then, he had to shoot pucks at a dryer in his basement.

Sidney was shooting pucks 3 years before Alex even wanted to play hockey. That shows much more determination. Uses the same logic as your argument. If there even is one. I won't even comment on your ignorance of the QMJHL.

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11-14-2003, 01:58 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Dr_Chimera
You said that Crosby doesn't get the credit and I counter by saying that he gets all the credit in the world, more than most professional hockey players. Now how can that possibly be not enough credit? It is undoubtedly too much credit - kind of like LeBron James, but obviously less.
He gets all the credit in the world because he's earned it. If he was struggling in the Q and recieving all this credit, then yes, he doesn't really deserve it. But the fact is, he's done it all. He's dominated everywhere he's been and its not like he's racking up points against players who are 1 or 2 years younger than him, he's coming in at 16 and doing everything a 16 year old can do.

Why doesn't he deserve the credit? What hasn't he done yet that another 16 year old has done?

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11-14-2003, 02:08 PM
  #75
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For most Canadian, Crosby is way better than Ovechkin

For most Russians, Ovechkin is way better than Crosby

For most Americans, they love the two, but they'd take Alex because of his age..

The two are incredible good. And deserve all the attention they are getting. And the ones who tries to decrease their credit are just jealous or homer (in a case where a canadian decredit alex, and russians decredit crosby)...

------------------
For me, it's already an exploit to be compared a guys like Gretzky at such a young age....

The bottom line is : "Crosby and or Ovechkin will maybe become as good as gretz/lemieux, maybe not... But no matters, this two kids are just unbelieve and the upside for both are "the sky is the limit".

CROSBY AND OVECHKIN are equals.. End of debate. And until they played the same amount of games in the same league, we just CAN'T COMPARE...

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