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#1 in 2004 - Ovechkin or Crosby??

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Old
11-14-2003, 03:20 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman
He gets all the credit in the world because he's earned it. If he was struggling in the Q and recieving all this credit, then yes, he doesn't really deserve it. But the fact is, he's done it all. He's dominated everywhere he's been and its not like he's racking up points against players who are 1 or 2 years younger than him, he's coming in at 16 and doing everything a 16 year old can do.

Why doesn't he deserve the credit? What hasn't he done yet that another 16 year old has done?
Man, what is it with you people? You look but you don't read.

There is nothing wrong with credit, but there's something to be said about overstated praise.

You'd think that folks have learned from the Dan Cleary situation, but I guess not...

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11-14-2003, 03:46 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Chimera
Man, what is it with you people? You look but you don't read.

There is nothing wrong with credit, but there's something to be said about overstated praise.

You'd think that folks have learned from the Dan Cleary situation, but I guess not...
For what its worth, I agree. The hype around this kid has passed any sort of rationality, and unless you are putting him forth as at least as good if not better than Gretzky, you are somehow putting him down.

We go all the way to "fanatic" here - "a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm" - describes some of the boosters here. Can't have a rational discussion with someone who has parked the brain.

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11-14-2003, 03:50 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Dr_Chimera
And this has nothing to do with Alexander Ovechkin - I mentioned that Ovechkin is also to an extent overrated, but no one can dispute that he has proven more... That's just common sense - he's older, he's a pro and he's won gold at the WJC's. C'mon.
I think the Russian team as a group won gold at the WJC's, not Ovechkin by himself, but I'm sure you'd like to think so! Heck, he wasn't even their top forward, something like 7th in team scoring. Not that impressive for a pro player, playing with boys!

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11-14-2003, 04:13 PM
  #79
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Please see this link about 'Big E'. Eric Lindros

Lindros may have had a few numbers but he never had the heart to be a champion. Hopefully Crosby is not the same way.

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11-14-2003, 07:10 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman
Sidney was shooting pucks 3 years before Alex even wanted to play hockey. That shows much more determination. Uses the same logic as your argument. If there even is one. I won't even comment on your ignorance of the QMJHL.
Nope, that shows circumstances. Hockey is number 1 sport in Canada and everybody crazy about hockey, everything (including parents) pushing you to play hockey pretty early. In Russia it is different hockey doesn't pursue you on every step, and it wasn't being shown on tv so often as in Canada.
Location of hockey rink is another circumstance that can prevent a kid from hockey, there are not many rinks here and there in Russia.

Also that simply shows how talented and hard worker Ovechkin is, starting to play hockey so late and having such good achievements.

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11-14-2003, 07:17 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabLover
I think the Russian team as a group won gold at the WJC's, not Ovechkin by himself, but I'm sure you'd like to think so! Heck, he wasn't even their top forward, something like 7th in team scoring.
Nobody says that it wasn't a team and personally for me it would be crappy to know that Russian team wins because of one player, it usually wins as a team you never know who will break-through As for Ovechkin he had 6 goals (2 hat tricks) and 1 assist in 6 games, he tied as the best goal scorer of the tourney with Grigorenko. And by the way it was almost 1 year ago! Time runs so fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HabLover
Not that impressive for a pro player, playing with boys!
Hm, you mixed up the tourneys. Man vs Boys was at WJCU18 about a half year ago, he scored 13 points (9+4) in 6 games

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11-14-2003, 09:43 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa_Rules
The Great One also said all kinds of good stuff about Eric Lindros, and look how that whole thing turned out. Ughh. Crosby is only 13 points ahead of the other people in his league even though there is no one in it. The Russian Superleague is the second best league in the world, not Ickle Sydneykins' league. Crosby may be talented but that's not all it takes. Ovechkin didn't even start skating until he was 7 years old, then had to take a break because he no one could take him to the rink, then started playing organized hockey at 9 years old. I bet Sydneykins started earlier than that. It just shows you how hard Ovechkin had to work to become how good he is after starting at a rather late age in comparison with some other great hockey players. Ovechkin asked to play hockey at when he was 5 but had to wait 2 years before he could start. Until then he played with a plastic stick and puck which he shot at the walls of his apartment. Sydneykins probably got just about anything he wanted.
I know others have defended him, but don't make me go on another 'why Lindros was the player of our generation 'til he was hurt' rant.

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11-14-2003, 10:20 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa_Rules
Please see this link about 'Big E'. Eric Lindros

Lindros may have had a few numbers but he never had the heart to be a champion. Hopefully Crosby is not the same way.
Well since this article is up, I guess I'll havta rant...

No offense man, but you've got to be kidding me, sure he wouldn't have attained the whole status as better than Gretz and Mario like people predicted, but he would have been the best player in the NHL during his prime, by far too, no offense to Jagr, but he just wasn't as good IMO anyway. How does that article get off bashing him because he didn't score as much as they expected when he was getting hurt and not playing much at all? And its not at all like he didn't score alot while playing his PPG was top 5 all time before Philly traded him. I mean you can't exactly blame a person for the injuries they got (sure he coulda kept his head up with Stevens coming, but that woulda happened to many other players in the same situation). Sure he wasn't the leader of the team (I really don't think LeClair was either) but did we mention he was doing it all before the age of 25? (when the injuries really hit with the Stevens concussion). Did he not act correctly off the ice sometimes? Sure, but hockey players have been FAR worse, I mean pouring a beer over a girl when he was twenty-ish? Are we expecting him to be perfect? In all honesty I might do just the same thing tommorrow night for all I know, it really isn't that big a deal. And the whole 'he's a physical dominant force' sure he was, he was a big guy, but there are other bigger guys in the league, it was his brain that was his true best asset, he was INCREDIBLY underrated for his hockey sense. But then he got hurt and it took away parts of his physical dominance and he was still great, then he got the concussions and that screwed him up, because he lost alot of hockey sense so to speak. And they're complaining that he was averaging 0.5 goals per games in the playoffs? Are we forgetting he hadn't hit his prime? Are we forgetting he was a better passer than scorer (hence LeClairs increased numbers, that have DIED without Lindros). I mean that puts him on pace for 40 goals in a year, not his best, but he certainly would have brought it up as he improved (Yes he still was improving before the concussions). I really think he was the player who would have kept the NHL scoring high, because nobody could stop him so they could only win against if they scored more, hence more teams built for goals and more goal scoring. Did I mention he was only 25 when it finally all crashed down on him? And it certainly wasn't his fault he got hurt, I hardly think thats what he wanted. Lets put the off ice stuff aside for a second, people dissed Mario's character too, 'til he grew up, It cannot be argued that it affected his on ice play, he was still great no matter what happened off the ice, and the major hold-out was a direct result of the concussions. Did I mention this all happened before Lindros was 25?

No offense to you personally Foppa_Rules but that article is a joke IMO. It all comes down to this, did he become better than Gretz and Mario? No, he was hyped for being the 'player of his generation' the article even says that. Maybe some people thought he could break Gretzky's records, but I'm sure most people recognized that he wouldn't because of the change in playing style from the 80's, but they recognized he'd be the ultimate 90's player. Can we blame him for getting hurt? No, do people blame Orr? Double-standard....just because Orr was apparently such a better person than Lindros (not-dissing Orr's character, but he wasn't perfect off-ice, there was just less media to report the things back then and they were hushed up, if you don't believe me on that read Esposito's new autobio). This article seems to me to just blame him for getting injured, I mean read the last paragraph, I'm sure he's trying to only play 65 games a year and be hurt in the playoffs. And dissing his desire to win is just stupid IMO, I have no stats to back this up, its not a stat issue, you just have to watch him play...It sure looked like he cared, until he couldn't even think straight in 2000.

The dude had a top 5 all-time PPG before the age of 25. Think about him in his prime....I mean come on, its obvious he woulda dominated.

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Old
11-15-2003, 04:32 AM
  #84
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I don't care what he did, which wasn't that much. He never had a speck of heart. The guy was a creep. How did he ever become captain? I don't care even if he had won even 1 Stanley Cup, which he didn't. Has anyone ever applied the words 'work ethic' or 'heart' to him?? If they have you might want to give the person who said it an insanity checkup.

And about Ovechkin, he asked to play hockey at 5 years old but he had to wait 2 more years,(until he was 7), to play because his parents didn't have the time or money to take him.The after about a month of playing he had to stop for a time because again there was no one to take him to the rink. Then his brother, who died a few years ago, took him there himself so Ovechkin could play hockey, because Ovechkin's brother, Sergei, had seen how much Ovechkin loved hockey. I bet Ickle Sydneykins got to play the day he asked. Ovechkin was playing with a plastic stick and puck at age 2 and everytime the tv showed hockey he threw all his toys and ran to look. Just because Sydneykins started at a younger age doesn't mean Ovechkin didn't want to. It just shows how much harder Ovechkin had to work to reach the level he is at now.

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11-15-2003, 06:20 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa_Rules
I don't care what he did, which wasn't that much. He never had a speck of heart. The guy was a creep. How did he ever become captain? I don't care even if he had won even 1 Stanley Cup, which he didn't. Has anyone ever applied the words 'work ethic' or 'heart' to him?? If they have you might want to give the person who said it an insanity checkup.
I wanna know how many players with no heart or work ethic have ever managed to win the Hart Trophy. Or go all out every night like he did, come back from injuries like he did or be named to 3 Olympic Teams.

No heart whatsoever.

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11-15-2003, 06:28 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
Not to mention Gamache's ridiculous season a few years back.
Gamache is a great player, he is just 5'10 and cant skate. He is close to making the NHL, that says a lot about his smarts and skill. When you are 5'10 and are below average skater, even getting a sniff at the NHL is highly unlikely, but by next year he should be an NHL regular.

I remember all the debates about Gamache saying he wouldnt even make an ECHL team.

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11-15-2003, 06:31 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa_Rules
The Great One also said all kinds of good stuff about Eric Lindros, and look how that whole thing turned out. Ughh. Crosby is only 13 points ahead of the other people in his league even though there is no one in it. The Russian Superleague is the second best league in the world, not Ickle Sydneykins' league. Crosby may be talented but that's not all it takes. Ovechkin didn't even start skating until he was 7 years old, then had to take a break because he no one could take him to the rink, then started playing organized hockey at 9 years old. I bet Sydneykins started earlier than that. It just shows you how hard Ovechkin had to work to become how good he is after starting at a rather late age in comparison with some other great hockey players. Ovechkin asked to play hockey at when he was 5 but had to wait 2 years before he could start. Until then he played with a plastic stick and puck which he shot at the walls of his apartment. Sydneykins probably got just about anything he wanted.
How can you sit there and say the Q has "no-one else in it"

Are you a tool or just ignorant??

He has double the points that Stever Bernier has (who was a 1st rd pick last year if you didnt know). He is playing more minutes and has more points than his team mate MA Pouliot, who was also a 1st rounder.

I agree the caliber of hockey in the RSL is higher than the Q, but you look stupid when you start saying "leagues have nothing in them" when only 35 players were picked by NHL teams in 2003, and 25 more in 2002. That is 60 NHL drafted players, playing AGAINST Crosby.

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11-15-2003, 06:45 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La-La-Laprise
How can you sit there and say the Q has "no-one else in it"

Are you a tool or just ignorant??
I think the donkeys posts are kind of self evident to that question.
I say this more so about his comments surrounding Melonhead than anything else.

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11-15-2003, 07:51 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabLover
I think the Russian team as a group won gold at the WJC's, not Ovechkin by himself, but I'm sure you'd like to think so! Heck, he wasn't even their top forward, something like 7th in team scoring. Not that impressive for a pro player, playing with boys!
"He won gold at the WJC's" - translation: when the team won the title - Alex received a round metallic object that is the colour of gold. That is called a gold medal. Thus, he won gold - an expression meaning that a member of a championship winner won a gold medal. Just like his teammates.

As for his offensive contribution - that was covered by another poster.

Once again, some of you guys look, but you don't read.

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11-15-2003, 08:16 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Chimera
"He won gold at the WJC's" - translation: when the team won the title - Alex received a round metallic object that is the colour of gold. That is called a gold medal. Thus, he won gold - an expression meaning that a member of a championship winner won a gold medal. Just like his teammates.

As for his offensive contribution - that was covered by another poster.

Once again, some of you guys look, but you don't read.
Doc , I think you are been purposely dense on what the point that was been made. Given that hockey is likely the definition of a team sport, the fact that he was on a team that actually won something has little to do with how good he is , at least when comparing him to some other player in an effort to say that he is better. Using that rationale,then its material that that some unknown guy who was on the Russian 4th line (or for that matter, use Polushin who was already drafted) is a superiour prospect to someone like Thomas Vanek, who cant even get his team into the "A" side of tghe WJC, never mind win it.
The point being, when comparing one player to another trying to imply that one is better by using the fact that one played on a championship team is actually very weak & does little to butress any points someone is trying to make.

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11-15-2003, 08:44 AM
  #91
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I have never heard of anyone else in Crosby's league. And Ovechkin has already won several scoring titles, so it's not as if his team won the gold but he did nothing. On the contrary. Has Ickle Sydneykins won anything yet? I know he is only 16 but any scoring titles in his Canadian leagues or whatever?

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11-15-2003, 09:07 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa_Rules
I have never heard of anyone else in Crosby's league. And Ovechkin has already won several scoring titles, so it's not as if his team won the gold but he did nothing. On the contrary. Has Ickle Sydneykins won anything yet? I know he is only 16 but any scoring titles in his Canadian leagues or whatever?
This is his rookie year. And he is about to be the only 16 year old to win the Q scoring title.

Back in the 80's when the Q was more offensive, Mario Lemieux had 98 pts as a 16 year old, Corsby is on pace for 140.

Also Alex Tanguay on the Avs, had 60 some points as a 17 year old rookie, Crosby has 50 at 16 after just 24 games.

Winning gold is more of a team event. Would you say that since Artem Chubarov, Alexei Volkov and Maxime Afinogenov won gold back in 99, that Simon Gagne and Roberto Luongo arent as good as them?

Use your head.

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11-15-2003, 09:39 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy
Doc , I think you are been purposely dense on what the point that was been made. Given that hockey is likely the definition of a team sport, the fact that he was on a team that actually won something has little to do with how good he is , at least when comparing him to some other player in an effort to say that he is better. Using that rationale,then its material that that some unknown guy who was on the Russian 4th line (or for that matter, use Polushin who was already drafted) is a superiour prospect to someone like Thomas Vanek, who cant even get his team into the "A" side of tghe WJC, never mind win it.
The point being, when comparing one player to another trying to imply that one is better by using the fact that one played on a championship team is actually very weak & does little to butress any points someone is trying to make.
You too are missing my point. I never said that because Ovechkin won the gold and Crosby didn't then Ovechkin is (fill in the blank) than Crosby.

Winning the gold medal is an accomplishment - it is definitely something of value on a player's résumé.

That does not mean that winning the gold is the ONLY thing that matters, but when it is only a part of the package, it is noteworthy.

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11-15-2003, 10:47 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Dr_Chimera
You too are missing my point. I never said that because Ovechkin won the gold and Crosby didn't then Ovechkin is (fill in the blank) than Crosby.

Winning the gold medal is an accomplishment - it is definitely something of value on a player's résumé.

That does not mean that winning the gold is the ONLY thing that matters, but when it is only a part of the package, it is noteworthy.
I know you didnt say that & I agree its nice for the resume, but in & of itself it means virtually nothing when comparing one player to another, so why then even say that. I know why. Its because whoever says it says it because he/she thinks it provides some evidence in supporting ones view that player A is better than player B, which imo is frankly stupid.

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11-15-2003, 01:12 PM
  #95
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Mario Lemeuix getting a certain number of points and Sydneykins getting a certain number of points is completely different. You are telling me the league has not changed at all since Lemeuix was in it? Ickle Sydneykins is only 13 points ahead of complete no-names in his league. I'm sure he's done some amazing things but against who? We'll see at the WJ Championships what he can do. Let's see how many scoring titles HE can win.....I mean, picture the two at the faceoff. Does Crosby play LW? If he does, and if Ovechkin plays RW on his line, they will probably be on opposing lines, the Russian Prize vs. the Canadian Prize. Tell me who would win the staredown between the two?? I'll bet you Sydneykins will be the first one to blink. There goes his confidence.


AND IT"S OVECHKIN!!!.....HE COMES IN....HE SHOOTS...HE SCORES!!!!!!!!!

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11-15-2003, 01:19 PM
  #96
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I found video of Ovechkin's most recent goals if anybody wants to watch them. There are 10 video's so far involving Ovechkin, I think 7 of goals and 3 of assists. There are more videos coming including his most recent goal on the 12'th of November.

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11-15-2003, 01:59 PM
  #97
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Foppa_Rules, what exactly are you talking about? You don't know of a single player who plays in the QMJHL and your sitting there arguing that he sucks because your ignorant? If you don't know anybody that plays in the QMJHL then you know nothing about minor hockey....so stop arguing about it.

I am not saying Ovechkin is bad, not at all he is great, I am by no means saying Crosby is certain to be better, but you are bashing a kid based on absolutely no facts. The guy took a team full of lesser talent to the ACC and got 3 PPG there against the best Midget AAA comp. in Canada. He then went to SSM and almost scored as much (if not the same) as Zach Parise did while he was in grade 12, a full two years older than Crosby. Then Crosby proceeded to lead another lesser talented team from Nova Scotia against the best players his age in the CWG and he dominated. Then he proceeded to play for Team Canada at the U17 and was the leading scorer on his team, despite being the youngest. He then proceeded to the Q where he is tearing up the league playing against guys you've never heard of, guys that have been drafted into the NHL some in the first round, The guy is on pace to score like PM-Bouchard did in his draft year, and PM-Bouchard made the NHL the next year, when he was two years older than Crosby is right now. And yes the league has changed since Lemieux left, the overall talent level has risen and the defense is better.

And Lindros has no heart and never could win? Come now he was U25 and had a Hart trophy and had led Philly to the cup finals before. Not many players could captain a team to the cup finals before they were 25. Sorry man but that article you posted and this stuff your saying about Crosby has completely destroyed any credibility you had.

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11-15-2003, 02:15 PM
  #98
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We will see what happens at the World Juniors. The only other Russian to compete at the U20 championships at 17 besides Ovechkin was Vladislav Tretiak. I think Ovechkin knows about being the youngest. Standing up for perhaps the biggest disgrace to modern hockey, Big E, destroys any credibility YOU had. All that guy did was try to live up to other people's expectations rather than his own. Name one team Lindros, I shouldn't even capitalize it, has been on that has been in any way united and known for their hard work, team-first attitude, ect. I thought he was the Captain??? Or was he?

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11-15-2003, 02:42 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa_Rules
We will see what happens at the World Juniors. The only other Russian to compete at the U20 championships at 17 besides Ovechkin was Vladislav Tretiak. I think Ovechkin knows about being the youngest.
I thought I said that I am not dissing Ovechkin? I was merely telling you why you are so incredibly wrong in all your statements about Crosby. It's nice to see you run from what I was really talking about, your lack of knowledge of Crosby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa_Rules
Standing up for perhaps the biggest disgrace to modern hockey, Big E, destroys any credibility YOU had. All that guy did was try to live up to other people's expectations rather than his own. Name one team Lindros, I shouldn't even capitalize it, has been on that has been in any way united and known for their hard work, team-first attitude, ect. I thought he was the Captain??? Or was he?
He was the captain, I think them making it to the cup final shows they had some team ideas. I mean the Ranger teams of today have more talent than Lindros' Flyers and look what they've done with it (notice I am not standing up for the Lindros of today, the guy can't even think straight, he should retire before he hurts himself even worse). Look at today's Flyers, they haven't done anything like Lindros' Flyers and they have more talent. The point I'm making is those Flyer teams didn't win on pure talent, you can't, they obviously WANTED to win. Were they known for being hard working? No, does that mean they didn't? Looks to me like the beat out a whole lot of Eastern Conference teams that were 'known for working hard' when they made the cup finals.

And about trying to live up to others expectations, thats exactly the reason that article dissed him, it was all about how he hadn't attained other people's expectations. I told you how he was, but injuries derailed him, and now your saying that he shouldn't have tried to become the best player of his era? Or he shouldn't have tried to become one of the best ever? Why not?

Expectations didn't kill his career, injuries did.

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11-15-2003, 02:47 PM
  #100
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Isn't it time to move on, already? There hasn't been a new thought expressed in at least the last page of this thread.

It would be nice to see the links to Ovechkin's goals that was offered above - but maybe on a new thread and without the comparisons that get everyone's shorts in a knot.

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