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What am I missing about David Fisher?

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Old
08-08-2006, 12:11 PM
  #51
Pere Noel
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Originally Posted by Tout ptit View Post
How can you claim that all these guys are better picks than the ones Timmins made?

At least give Timmins' picks time to play in the big league.
The fact that they don't make the league as quickly doesn't mean they won't have an as big or maybe even bigger impact.

All your comparision either haven't yet played in the NHL or played one season and had a decent seasons so it's nothing that goes to show that we didn't pick up the best player available.
Case in point : Alexandre Daigle made it to the league at age 18. Saku Koivu who was drafted the same year, made it at age ~21.

There is no doubt which one had the biggest impact (positive that is)

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08-08-2006, 01:06 PM
  #52
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[QUOTE=CaptCrunch;6229865]Thx everyone for your answers.


GREAT AVATAR !

That fight between Rivet & Marchment is one of the best fights of the last 10 years !!

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08-08-2006, 01:29 PM
  #53
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At this point I just cant see Fisher over Emelin and OByrn... People going with Fisher probably only rely on upside and potential or the fact he is a first rounder while you have to take in consideration what prospects accomplished until now... Emelin was a force at the last WJC where he even impressed offensively with surprising stickhandling and shooting skills.. OByrn also had a great year where you could see he is definitively a great prospects, a guy that should become a physical force in the NHL, maybe not as dominant as Komisarek is gonna be in his own zone but still a great physical presence with some nice skills..

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08-08-2006, 02:48 PM
  #54
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fischer just seems like the type of d-man that can flourish into a 25-30 minute d-man that can be counted on to play in all areas of the ice. like someothers have alluded to, with him it was all about upside, guys like wishart didn't have much are were too one dimensional.

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08-08-2006, 03:33 PM
  #55
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He is described as being much the same as Eric Desjardin was described.

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08-08-2006, 03:42 PM
  #56
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I gotta admit myself that Fischer wasnt my idea of our selection in the 06 draft.

However upon reflection (and it took me all of the second half of the day to do a competent read up on this character... Mr. Fischer who had some interesting points about him...)
We made out like bandits IMO in our selections...

Fischer IMO is very similar personality wise to the leader of the entire franchise... Very poised, very honorable, very respectable...

What nobody has mentioned is that he Captained the Minnesota HS team, that also iced fellow first rounders Okposo (and another first rounder I am forgetting right now) and was a monster for that team. Quite possibly their best player on the ice (i dont know for sure, but the half a game ice time speaks loads to me).

Is he the defenceman with the highest ceiling... possibly. One thing he was definately, was a lower pick than he should be. The responsibility he shouldered last year is one that very few 18 year olds have ever shouldered before. His mother was sick, he passed on the opportunity to be a higher selection because of such. That is a MAN. A mature, responsible MAN decision that not many 18 year olds I have EVER known would have ever made. Bear in mind, his contribution to the team on top of this, and we have a mature, well rounded prospect heading to a premiere defensive University (the first overall selcetion is playing there too, as well as some other huge d prospects, and forwards).


Now as far as previous selections in other years...

I still think hioghly of all our first round selections, and IMO entry levels doesnt mean anything to future impacts...

Guys like Andrei Kostitsyn (who has been bashed a bit lately) are looked over because guys like Carter, Richards and Brown made their respective clubs, and Kost struggled in the AHL a bit...
Facts are, the Bulldogs had major problems last year. They had a tonne of call ups, based on feeding 2 teams, they had an inconsistent line up of players consistently revolving in and out of the line up... Andrei played decent, he wasnt sent down to prove he can score (he can, by the way) hes already proven that. Hs also proven to be a great gamebreaking player who has personally been behind some pretty ****in HUGE upsets over the past few seasons on the national level. Yeah it would be nice to see a 40 G AHL season, however even Timmons said that he wasnt getting the goals becasue the passing levels in Hamilton arent playing to Kosts game. The coach however provided comments saying he was playing much better near the end of the year... This isnt even mentioning the let down he had when he did not make the big club. He knows hs close to the permanent job... But in Montreal we want responsible hard working players, where Kost is definately a hard worker, he is not quite responsible yet.


People, read about the history of les Canadiens to understand why we do this... Guy Lafleur sat on the bench for the better part of 2 and a half years to watch the NHL level... so did Larry... Its very rare for the habs to allow COMPETENT 18 year old players who are destined to be the BEST IN THE BUSINESS a roster spot receiving regular ice time. I know it peeves off some, however IMO its the habs approach, and 24 stanley cups (soon to be 25) later, whos to argue... We are in contention of being the greatest franchise in sports history... Why is it that when we do things our way... do people always think we did it wrong... Daigle wouldnt of made the habs that year he went first overall... and in turn his career would have been mapped out completely differently. He wouldnt of had that star gaze in his eyes, he would have had to focus...

In short , we let the boys grow... but ultimately people who are judging our picks... IMO should give em a rest... look how they are filtering in the line up, ripping the band aids off, and competently taking their jobs. Guys like Pleks, Komi, Higgins, Ryder, Ribeiro... They took some time, and they are better for it. We develop them, slowly, and give them tonnes of ice time in the AHL... because first line AHL minutes, is a step in the right direction to someday hopefully playing first line NHL minutes.

BTW, I am in belief Kostitsyn will have his revenge on the draft year this year

Look out... and while he may be in the AHL to start, I believe he will be one player to of won a role out by the end of the season... and be COMPETENT, and thatll be another hab we selected out of the draft, playing for us... And looking at the roster, at the guys that are below the 25 age... we have one hell of a promising club, esp. with the guys who are frothing to the top of their development as well...

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08-08-2006, 04:28 PM
  #57
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Wow, what great feedback!

After reading everything, I tend to see the better logic behind the draft pick.

Looks like we tend to favor mature, well rounded individuals (Higgins, Chipchura to name a few). In that regard, Fischer seems to fit the mold pretty well.

Which is not a bad thing overall.

As for Kostitsyn, we have to remember that Kosty Sr, contrary to Carter, Richards et al spoke very little english comming here and learned his game in a russian system.

You simply cannot discount that when you want to factor in the speed in which he'll grow up to the big club.

Last year, he had to rely on Ivanans for translation... I guess that says it all.

IMO, changing systems and learning a new language is a big step. A step other established draft picks of that year did not have to overcome.

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08-09-2006, 03:07 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post
I gotta admit myself that Fischer wasnt my idea of our selection in the 06 draft.

However upon reflection (and it took me all of the second half of the day to do a competent read up on this character... Mr. Fischer who had some interesting points about him...)
We made out like bandits IMO in our selections...

Fischer IMO is very similar personality wise to the leader of the entire franchise... Very poised, very honorable, very respectable...
...

Is he the defenceman with the highest ceiling... possibly. One thing he was definately, was a lower pick than he should be. The responsibility he shouldered last year is one that very few 18 year olds have ever shouldered before. His mother was sick, he passed on the opportunity to be a higher selection because of such. That is a MAN. A mature, responsible MAN decision that not many 18 year olds I have EVER known would have ever made. Bear in mind, his contribution to the team on top of this, and we have a mature, well rounded prospect heading to a premiere defensive University (the first overall selcetion is playing there too, as well as some other huge d prospects, and forwards). ...
Interesting perspective, plus factor in that some people are raving about his raw skill: soft hands (one poster in the Prospects board alluded to them specifically in a post), tremendous speed, and good hockey sense. Should be interesting to compare him with the #1 overall, if they play together. Based on what I'm seeing, there does not appear much that separates them.

Agree or disagree with recent draft choices, at least they appear more justified in the minds of the Habs brass, compared to 8-10 years ago.

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Old
08-09-2006, 09:08 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by your_rogers_bill View Post
how long has timmins been in charge of amateur scouting? i mean, if it dates back to 2003, he has yet to make the BPA selection work for him.

2003, picked kostitsyn with jeff carter, dustin brown, ryan getzlaf, etc... on the board
2004, picked chipchura with richards, meszaros, schremp, etc... on the board.
2005, picked price with brule, bourdon, staal, rask, etc... on the board.
2003 Kost has WAY more upsides than Carter, Brown, Getzlaf... that's a risky pick, but sometimes, the risk is worth it. Carter, Getzlaf and co haven't broken anything up to now... Yes they won gold at the JR... but what does that mean? Brian Savage won it too back in the 90's.

2004 Chip IS team Canada Captain, was one of the best Defensive forward in CHL and... when he came to AHL last season, was said to be their best players for these couple of games... I'd put him on par with Richards although they were NOT pcked the same year.

2005. you are SOOOOOO off... Brule will spend the rest of his career on IR. Price is the NEXT BIG THING according to a vast majority of scouts. Bourdon might be more valuable down the road though... but He was a risky pick at the time of the draft, he WASNT that good back then... He just matured VERY FAST. Luck. that's all.

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08-09-2006, 09:13 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Want a big, stay-at-home, mobile and offensive d-men. I present to you David Fischer...

I believe the Habs took the one who could be able to have some great qualities in all those areas. Like you said yourself, I believe the guys you mentioned might be better than Fischer as of now, in only one aspect, their specialty. Fischer seems to have the potentiel of being good in ALL aspects. And if, he's not lucky, well he might be able to be good in 2 out of 3 and so on.

I think that when you compare everyone, their downside was much more important than Fischer's. Williams? Well was scheduled to go so early, some even said the best d-men potentially after Johnson, see how his downside played in his selection. Wishart, it's a belief that he's just a stay-at home and nothing else. Is that enough to go 16th??? I believe there was tons of other d-men like that in that draft. Valentenko might be one. I wonder how's Sanguinetti being often compared to Hainsey by HF people, might have been the same thing amongst scouts.

I don't think anybody saw Brian Lee being picked as early like the Sens did, they did thought he was a diamond in the rough, that would take a long time to develop but once he does, will be quite a player. I believe it was Timmins' thinking as well for Fischer.

As far as what I saw in the development camp, was a little dissapointed by his foot speed one day, and then pretty good the other day. Was more dissapointed in his stickhandling the whole week, but then showed some moments of pure joy, puck being glued to his stick at full speed. Loved his work ethic, was taken as an example on one of the drills, loved his defensive play, didn't get beat that often, never looked like a fool and like his shots, wristers or slappers. But does need to bulk up so much and not lose his mobility while doing so. But you see the potentiel so much, Timmins decided to go with a tall guy with good mobility, who has the potentiel of being equally great offensively and defensively.....the perfect d-men.....


Fischer is the WHOLE SUPER PACKAGE, you just gotta believe. Every of the mentionned dmen had some flaw that Fischer doesn't have... He's WAY BACK in development, but ... actually that's a good point. He possesses that much skill while playing with kids and being underdevelopped.
It'll be interesting how he compares to Erik Johnson down the road (IMO, Fischer is an under developped E. J.)

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08-09-2006, 09:43 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by alexstream View Post


Fischer is the WHOLE SUPER PACKAGE, you just gotta believe. Every of the mentionned dmen had some flaw that Fischer doesn't have... He's WAY BACK in development, but ... actually that's a good point. He possesses that much skill while playing with kids and being underdevelopped.
It'll be interesting how he compares to Erik Johnson down the road (IMO, Fischer is an under developped E. J.)
You made me remember an article I read before the draft. It stated that this draft would have more hidden picks and good surprises than regular. The reason being that the lockout caused a glut in the progression of some prospects (better player not graduated = less ice time = less chance to show your stuff).

As a result, some players would be a bit further back in their progression than regular but would quickly step it up.

While I am always hesitant to call a prospect the "whole super package" I think there is something to the notion that he may be a bit underrated because he did not have as much space...


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08-09-2006, 10:02 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexstream View Post
2003 Kost has WAY more upsides than Carter, Brown, Getzlaf... that's a risky pick, but sometimes, the risk is worth it. Carter, Getzlaf and co haven't broken anything up to now... Yes they won gold at the JR... but what does that mean? Brian Savage won it too back in the 90's.

2004 Chip IS team Canada Captain, was one of the best Defensive forward in CHL and... when he came to AHL last season, was said to be their best players for these couple of games... I'd put him on par with Richards although they were NOT pcked the same year.

2005. you are SOOOOOO off... Brule will spend the rest of his career on IR. Price is the NEXT BIG THING according to a vast majority of scouts. Bourdon might be more valuable down the road though... but He was a risky pick at the time of the draft, he WASNT that good back then... He just matured VERY FAST. Luck. that's all.
I saw Chip play live and Richards on TV. As of last year Chip wasnt even close.

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08-09-2006, 11:47 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by alexstream View Post
2005. you are SOOOOOO off... Brule will spend the rest of his career on IR. Price is the NEXT BIG THING according to a vast majority of scouts.
If the vast majority of scouts said that Price was the next big thing, I must have been elsewhere... From what I remember, most observers were floored when we took Price and considered that pick a bit of a reach. And nowadays, what I hear is Price being a good solid goaltender coming off a so-so season, who has a long way to go and a lot to prove this year. That seems quite different from the consensual Next Big Thing statement that you refer to...

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08-09-2006, 01:03 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Dr_Hook View Post
If the vast majority of scouts said that Price was the next big thing, I must have been elsewhere... From what I remember, most observers were floored when we took Price and considered that pick a bit of a reach. And nowadays, what I hear is Price being a good solid goaltender coming off a so-so season, who has a long way to go and a lot to prove this year. That seems quite different from the consensual Next Big Thing statement that you refer to...
Nope.. they were shocked to see the Storied Montreal Canadiens select the first available goaltender with such a high pick, considering we were "Strong in net" with Theodore, an untested Huet, a solid prospect in Danis (and Halak) t name some... They figured wed pick a player who grew up a hab fan and played with grit... EVERYONE thought GIlbert was heading to Montreal when they went to the board @ # 5.
Carey was ALWAYS considered a consensus top 5, and the best goalie in the draft.
Looking at how long Gil played before his FIRST major injury... I stand by our decision.

Price still has a huge potential... and theres a tonne anyone can say... but if you havent seen him play, Well, you just dont know. I wanted Brule originally... until I saw Carey.

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08-09-2006, 04:24 PM
  #65
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[QUOTE=Ghost # 1;6245764]thought GIlbert was heading to Montreal when they went to the board @ # 5.
Carey was ALWAYS considered a consensus top 5, and the best goalie in the draft.
[QUOTE]


I was under the impression that generally Carey was considered to be around #7 with the top 5 being Crosby, Johnson, Brule, Pouliot and Ryan. I don't think it was a reach and the guy I wanted (Pouliot) was taken right before our pick so I wasn't too upset at seeing us take Price over Brule, but then again, time will tell.

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08-09-2006, 04:47 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post
Carey was ALWAYS considered a consensus top 5, and the best goalie in the draft.
That is very far from the truth. Price was ranked somewhere between 7 and 15. He was pegged as the best goalie but it wasn't unanimous, some thinking that Rask had more athleticism and upside.

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08-09-2006, 05:53 PM
  #67
Marchy79
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That is very far from the truth. Price was ranked somewhere between 7 and 15. He was pegged as the best goalie but it wasn't unanimous, some thinking that Rask had more athleticism and upside.
It pretty much was unanimous... Anyone whose opinion I cared enough about slated Carey top 7 (ok top 5 was a bit high... but I wasnt being literal about a draft that took place 2 years ago)

but if you want to nickel and dime these thoughts... Why dont you explain who thought it was a HUGE REACH... because Ill tell you right now... it wasnt, and I will remind you... the only reason why people were floored was because everyone thought Gainey had his scouts eyes all over Gil in the WHL... They were ALL wrong... That was the flooring moment... not the selection...

So let me digress... Me saying Price was consensus top 5 is MUCH more closer to the truth than your reasoning that it was a REACH selection.

As for 'Lots to Prove'... nobody expected too much out of him because hes on a total **** team... the fact that they made the playoffs speaks a lot to Carey...

The fact that he lost the goaltender job to Pogge had to do with the Sutters insanity on practicing... You dont **** with your goalies regimens... Sutter made a call based on what he was comfortable with (Pogge and his ever so brown nose) but the decision was not based on performance... Oh and Poggs 20... Carey has 2 more years of eligibility for the U-20.
Where do you get sub-par, so-so, or tonnes to prove from this

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