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Old
08-09-2006, 10:41 PM
  #51
Duchene2MacKinnon
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its hard to vote for luongo b/c he never played in the playoffs but i'd say luongo

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08-09-2006, 10:51 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
I'd be in that group that thinks that without Kipper, Calgary wouldn't make the playoffs - or at least struggle to make it right to the end... that's why IMO he's currently the league's best - and more importantly, most valuable - goalie (and that includes Broduer, who without a doubt has had a better overall career!).

I also think that the Calgary defense definitely helps Kipper... at the level he's playing at, he'd be great anywhere, but put the Florida defense in front of him, and he's going to look a lot more like Luongo in the end - great stats, still a great goalie, but probably not a division winner, and struggling to make the playoffs.

Go back to Regehr's injury last season... how did the Calgary team overall look during that time? IIRC it made a huge impact on the team's success, did it not? When Regehr was out, the rest of the guys were playing out of position - each having to step up a notch to make up for his loss... without him there, didn't it affect Kiprusoff as well? I don't remember exactly, but didn't Calgary struggle during this time?

This isn't to take anything away from Kiprusoff... if not for the Devils' defensive system, and the studs they had back there over the years, Brodeur's career isn't the same as it is now.

Defense definitely will make a difference. The Calgary defense, as long been argued by Flames fans as well, is among the top defenses in the league. It's also the defensive system there... along with the defense, the team was able to allow just 27.6shots/game last season - 6th best total in the league.

This goes a long way towards their league best 200 goals against allowed.

How much does it affect the total if their defense (and defensive team game) reflected more of what Luongo saw in Florida? 34.8 shots/game, for 29th in the league?

Behind that defense, does he put up the same stats he did last year?
Very well put, agree with you completely. It's just we never seem to get explanations like that. It's either the Flames suck it's all Kipper. Or Kipper's a one-year wonder, it was all the defense.

And I totally agree the defense helps out Kipper immensely. But I also think it's a two way street. With Kipper back there helps guys like Regehr, Warrener, and even Phaneuf immensely as well.

And to answer your question, no he does not put up the same stats in FLorida that he did with the Flames. But hopefully for me, as a Flames fan, I'll never have to see the answer to that.

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08-10-2006, 12:27 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Because we're basing this off Luongo's performances with the cellar-dwelling Florida Panthers? Maybe.
the same panthers who only had 7 points less than the canucks and only allowed 2 more goals? if they were cellar dwellars... what were the canucks?

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08-10-2006, 05:57 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
the same panthers who only had 7 points less than the canucks and only allowed 2 more goals? if they were cellar dwellars... what were the canucks?
an underacheiving, disorganized team, that lost their #1 goalie, had injuries to all 3 of their top 3 dmen, had their #1 forward playing hurt for most of the season, as well as their top center, while having the whole Bert cloud over their heads all season long.

the canucks were pathetic last year.... so a team that that was 7 pts back, while allowing just 2 more goals, with one of the best goalies in the league, well, they were probably a little worse than pathetic!

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08-10-2006, 08:59 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
an underacheiving, disorganized team, that lost their #1 goalie and had their backup put up similar numbers, had injuries to all 2 of their top 3 dmen, had their #1 forward playing hurt for most of the season, as well as their top center, while having the whole Bert cloud over their heads all season long.
Just thought i'd throw in some corrections/additions. FYI, Calgary also had significant injuries to 2 of their top 3 defensemen and the other one(Phaneuf) played with a broken foot in the last few games and playoffs. Even with Jovo missing 38 games, in total Vancouvers top 6 dmen only missed 13 more man games then the Flames. So you can cross the injuries to defensemen off your giant excuse rolodex as well as poor goaltending.

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08-10-2006, 09:27 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by hockey_genius View Post
I was wondering whether if luongo is better/as good/worse than kipper?

Last year, kipper definitely had the advantage of a top-notch defense to back him up. But now, Luongo has landed on a team with mediorce defensemen, who will be better?
We'll know after this year. Kipper has had the solid defence of the Flames in front of him for a while now so that's gonna help him out a lot. Luongo now has a better team in front of him so it will make for a good divisional competition.
Kipper is a very solid goalie, I like him and the way he plays and Luongo has made 40 saves almost every game in Florida the last 2 years, so now that they are both solid goalies playing on 2 solid teams....let the competition begin and may the best goaltender win!!!
Should see Luongo's true colors this year and hopefully they will be silver!!!

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08-10-2006, 12:22 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Danny__K View Post
Just thought i'd throw in some corrections/additions. FYI, Calgary also had significant injuries to 2 of their top 3 defensemen and the other one(Phaneuf) played with a broken foot in the last few games and playoffs. Even with Jovo missing 38 games, in total Vancouvers top 6 dmen only missed 13 more man games then the Flames. So you can cross the injuries to defensemen off your giant excuse rolodex as well as poor goaltending.
Jovo was injured on and off through pretty much the whole season... he was the #3 dman in icetime behind Ohlund and Salo (pretty much identical to Salo)...

Ohlund and Salo both got injured during the Olympics... after we got back from the Olympics, the canucks were in a playoff fight - Jovo's status, unknown... Ohlund, expected out for a couple of weeks, and Salo - unknown.

For the most important stretch of the season for the canucks, Bryan Allen was the canucks #1 dman... of course when that failed miserably, Ohlund was forced to return early, although wasn't very good for the remainder of the season, even though there was no one else to play big minutes... this is the biggest reason why Nonis added 3 dmen at the deadline!

While Ohlund only missed like 4 games, he came back early from his injury and looked out of shape... and that doesn't include him starting the season with the canucks, while playing hurt for over the first month of the season.

so if you're going to highlight Phaneuf playing hurt, Ohlund, considering he is our #1 dman, and our top minutes guy on the backend, playing hurt is at least as much a loss to the canucks, as Phaneuf was to the Flames.

at one point after the Olympics, the canucks defense was Allen, McCarthy, Bieksa, Mojzis, Ryan, and Brookbank.... there's no wonder that Ohlund was rushed back, and asked to fill in 30 mins/night while still recovery from injury.

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08-10-2006, 12:32 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
Jovo was injured on and off through pretty much the whole season... he was the #3 dman in icetime behind Ohlund and Salo (pretty much identical to Salo)...

Ohlund and Salo both got injured during the Olympics... after we got back from the Olympics, the canucks were in a playoff fight - Jovo's status, unknown... Ohlund, expected out for a couple of weeks, and Salo - unknown.

For the most important stretch of the season for the canucks, Bryan Allen was the canucks #1 dman... of course when that failed miserably, Ohlund was forced to return early, although wasn't very good for the remainder of the season, even though there was no one else to play big minutes... this is the biggest reason why Nonis added 3 dmen at the deadline!

While Ohlund only missed like 4 games, he came back early from his injury and looked out of shape... and that doesn't include him starting the season with the canucks, while playing hurt for over the first month of the season.

so if you're going to highlight Phaneuf playing hurt, Ohlund, considering he is our #1 dman, and our top minutes guy on the backend, playing hurt is at least as much a loss to the canucks, as Phaneuf was to the Flames.

at one point after the Olympics, the canucks defense was Allen, McCarthy, Bieksa, Mojzis, Ryan, and Brookbank.... there's no wonder that Ohlund was rushed back, and asked to fill in 30 mins/night while still recovery from injury.
But we still ended up beating Calgary that night

You forgot Buchenson...he was playing that game!

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08-10-2006, 07:31 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
an underacheiving, disorganized team, that lost their #1 goalie, had injuries to all 3 of their top 3 dmen, had their #1 forward playing hurt for most of the season, as well as their top center, while having the whole Bert cloud over their heads all season long.

the canucks were pathetic last year.... so a team that that was 7 pts back, while allowing just 2 more goals, with one of the best goalies in the league, well, they were probably a little worse than pathetic!
and now vancouvers defense has gotten weaker from that patheic team of last season... the offense has also taken a hit... all to improve at the goaltender position... a goaltender who is said to be one of the best goalies in teh league... yet couldnt take his team to the next level... this years canucks defense isnt all that superior to the panthers of 05-06 and who knows how vancouvers offense will do without carter, bertuzzi and jovo... its going to be funny to see auld in teh playoffs with teh panthers and luongo sitting on his couch watching at home

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08-11-2006, 01:09 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
and now vancouvers defense has gotten weaker from that patheic team of last season... the offense has also taken a hit... all to improve at the goaltender position...
Mitchell >> Jovanovski from the past few years..

the coaching change is going to be the most different. Hell if any team should, you guys should recognize how big the impact of a new coach can be...

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08-11-2006, 12:16 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by HankyFourFingers View Post
Mitchell >> Jovanovski from the past few years..

the coaching change is going to be the most different. Hell if any team should, you guys should recognize how big the impact of a new coach can be...
even is mitchel is > than Jovo (which i dont buy)... Allen >> Krajicek & Trembley... i think moving Allen was a HUGE mistake

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08-11-2006, 12:17 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by HankyFourFingers View Post
Mitchell >> Jovanovski from the past few years..

the coaching change is going to be the most different. Hell if any team should, you guys should recognize how big the impact of a new coach can be...
yeah a coaching change can be successful... but usually for the coaching change to be successful it helps if they have a history of being a successful coach... i may be wrong but wasnt the canucks new bench boss's first NHL tenure kinda short?

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08-11-2006, 05:07 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
yeah a coaching change can be successful... but usually for the coaching change to be successful it helps if they have a history of being a successful coach... i may be wrong but wasnt the canucks new bench boss's first NHL tenure kinda short?
Didn't the Canucks coach have some success as an AHL coach? It's not the same thing but it's a very similar boat to the one the Flames are in.

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08-11-2006, 05:20 PM
  #64
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How is this even a thread. If Kipper was in Florida they would have made the playoffs. Calgary could play with 4 guys when they are up 1-0 and Kipper would still win the game 7 out of 10 times. That said I am currently breaking the leg of my Kipper voodoo doll and calling a hitman to cut his breaks.

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08-11-2006, 05:28 PM
  #65
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How many blocked shots did the Florida defence have? And now look @ Calgary. Luongo by a country mile.

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08-11-2006, 05:44 PM
  #66
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Oiler fan here,

Personally Luongo has been great if not amasing since he's come into the league but has played behind some horrible defensive team. Kipper has been extremely good but behind a very deep defensive team. I think Kipper has been better over the last 2 nhl seasons, but overall I would take Luongo over any goalie in the league.

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08-11-2006, 06:01 PM
  #67
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Kippo hammers him...not even close.

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08-11-2006, 06:09 PM
  #68
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uhhh kiprusoff sucks?..

uh.yya....he does.

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08-11-2006, 07:07 PM
  #69
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Luongo is Canadas top 2 goalie. I dont see Kippursoff if he was Canadian, landing a number 1 or backup job for Team Canada, so Luongo is better then Kippursoff.

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08-11-2006, 07:14 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
and now vancouvers defense has gotten weaker from that patheic team of last season... the offense has also taken a hit... all to improve at the goaltender position... a goaltender who is said to be one of the best goalies in teh league... yet couldnt take his team to the next level... this years canucks defense isnt all that superior to the panthers of 05-06 and who knows how vancouvers offense will do without carter, bertuzzi and jovo... its going to be funny to see auld in teh playoffs with teh panthers and luongo sitting on his couch watching at home
seems like u really hate the nucks

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08-11-2006, 07:37 PM
  #71
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well if luongo ever had a d like the flames in front of him..... if kipper faced 40 shots a night like luongo ...... too many if's id say luongo ahean by a small margin, as kipper has peaked and luongo will still get better

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08-11-2006, 07:45 PM
  #72
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well if luongo ever had a d like the flames in front of him..... if kipper faced 40 shots a night like luongo ...... too many if's id say luongo ahean by a small margin, as kipper has peaked and luongo will still get better
why doyou say that?

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08-11-2006, 08:19 PM
  #73
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Oiler fan here,

Personally Luongo has been great if not amasing since he's come into the league but has played behind some horrible defensive team. Kipper has been extremely good but behind a very deep defensive team. I think Kipper has been better over the last 2 nhl seasons, but overall I would take Luongo over any goalie in the league.

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08-12-2006, 03:43 AM
  #74
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Kipper > Luongo


Luongo is the most overrated goalie in the world right now.

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08-12-2006, 04:27 AM
  #75
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well if luongo ever had a d like the flames in front of him..... if kipper faced 40 shots a night like luongo ...... too many if's id say luongo ahean by a small margin, as kipper has peaked and luongo will still get better
If Kipprusoff played behind the worst defense in the NHL he still wouldn't face as many shots as Luongo did with Florida. Almost every shot he faces head on is directed into the corners, in the rare occasion that he kicks it into the slot the Flames' defense picks up the slack. The Flames' defense was spectacular last season but when your offense is one of the worst in the NHL, then both your goaltender and your defense need to be spectacular to rank as high as Calgary did in 05/06.

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