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Old
11-05-2003, 06:56 PM
  #1
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Questions about USNTDP

Beginning research for an article, and I'm looking for some quick insights so I can start to forumulate some questions.

Questions about USNTDP and junior hockey

1) Why was it started?
2) Who funds it?
3) Seems to me that the US Colleges benefit big time from the program, as it gives young US prospects a decent reason to stay in the US instead of going to the Canadian Juniors. Is that a fair assessment?
4) What kind of stipend do Canadian Junior Hockey players get from their teams? Do USNTDP kids get a stipend?
5) Is it true that Herb Brooks thought the program was a waste?
6) Is Mantha's departure a bad sign for the program?
7) How is the program regarded by colleges and the NHL?
8) I read something about agents collecting up to $10,000 to deliver a top prospect to a CHL team. Can that be correct?
9) Is the US program generally seen as improving? Staying the same? Getting worse.
10) Why should a US prospect play with the US team?
11 How often is the US program used as a bargainning chip for coaches and players trying to get a good CHL deal?

Thanks for answering any of these questions.
Either post here, or return by PM.

Any help is greatly appreciated, and I'll be glad to share my work as it comes together.

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11-05-2003, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newsguyone
Beginning research for an article, and I'm looking for some quick insights so I can start to forumulate some questions.

Questions about USNTDP and junior hockey

1) Why was it started?
2) Who funds it?
3) Seems to me that the US Colleges benefit big time from the program, as it gives young US prospects a decent reason to stay in the US instead of going to the Canadian Juniors. Is that a fair assessment?
4) What kind of stipend do Canadian Junior Hockey players get from their teams? Do USNTDP kids get a stipend?
5) Is it true that Herb Brooks thought the program was a waste?
6) Is Mantha's departure a bad sign for the program?
7) How is the program regarded by colleges and the NHL?
8) I read something about agents collecting up to $10,000 to deliver a top prospect to a CHL team. Can that be correct?
9) Is the US program generally seen as improving? Staying the same? Getting worse.
10) Why should a US prospect play with the US team?
11 How often is the US program used as a bargainning chip for coaches and players trying to get a good CHL deal?

Thanks for answering any of these questions.
Either post here, or return by PM.

Any help is greatly appreciated, and I'll be glad to share my work as it comes together.

About the NTDP...

The National Team Development Program (NTDP) was started six years ago by USA Hockey in an effort to increase the overall development of American hockey players. The Program brings together America's premier student/athlete hockey players under the age of 18. The NTDP is a non-profit organization that operates year-round by placing emphasis on athletic, academic, and social development in order to allow American hockey players success at the highest levels.
I don't see why Mantha leaving the program will be any differnet than Eaves leaving the program, both did it to advance their own careers, nothing against the program. The strength and conditioning and coaches are top notch, the progra is notorious for having its' players in extremely great shape!

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11-05-2003, 07:53 PM
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Some answers:

The program is funded by USA Hockey.
The players do not recieve money as a stipend. The host family receives money as room and board from USA Hockey.
It's a great opportunity for american elite players to stay in the US, play with the best here, finish high school and hopefully receive a scholorship to a Div.1 college.
Players that decide to go to Canada lose the opportunity to go to college in this country. The Major Jr. Teams in Canada pay their players.
I suppose their agent receives quite a bit of money to deliver a highly skilled player.
Mantha leaving will not effect the team.
Herb Brooks thought it would be better to spread the money around instead of using the money on 48 players a year.
The program has produced some round 1 NHL draftees. I do believe the players were already highly skilled before they arrived in Ann Arbor. USNTDP honed their skill and gave the US a better chance to win internationally.
I think being selected to play on the US team gives the player instant status as a highly skilled player. It is a high profile team watched by NCAA and NHL scouts. If a player wants to play NHL hockey and wants to stay in the USA and has the skill....this is the best place to get noticed as a high school 16, 17 year old.

 
Old
11-05-2003, 11:22 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penkil2m
The program is funded by USA Hockey.
The players do not recieve money as a stipend. The host family receives money as room and board from USA Hockey.
It's a great opportunity for american elite players to stay in the US, play with the best here, finish high school and hopefully receive a scholorship to a Div.1 college.
Players that decide to go to Canada lose the opportunity to go to college in this country. The Major Jr. Teams in Canada pay their players.
I suppose their agent receives quite a bit of money to deliver a highly skilled player.
Mantha leaving will not effect the team.
Herb Brooks thought it would be better to spread the money around instead of using the money on 48 players a year.
The program has produced some round 1 NHL draftees. I do believe the players were already highly skilled before they arrived in Ann Arbor. USNTDP honed their skill and gave the US a better chance to win internationally.
I think being selected to play on the US team gives the player instant status as a highly skilled player. It is a high profile team watched by NCAA and NHL scouts. If a player wants to play NHL hockey and wants to stay in the USA and has the skill....this is the best place to get noticed as a high school 16, 17 year old.
As a person who has worked in CHL management in the past, I can say that the story of agents receiving money to "deliver" U.S. players to the CHL is a crock of $hit concocted by Jeff Jackson and perpetuated by Eaves and Mantha in an attempt to discredit certain agents who are seen by them as pro-CHL. But the fact is the CHL is the best route for some U.S. kids, and the NTDP is the best route for other U.S. kids, and smart agents recognize that. The problem has been that these people have had a hard time accepting that the NTDP is not the best route for ALL U.S. kids.

I can also say that Mantha leaving WILL affect the NTDP to a certain extent. It would seem logical to suggest that Mantha would not leave the NTDP in mid-season unless he was going somewhere else that would better advance his coaching career. He wouldn't move to the OHL if he felt it was a step down on the coaching ladder which ultimately ends in the NHL, as it does for players. So I think a lot of prospective players (particularly the true high-end guys) and their parents will ask themselves: if Mantha left the NTDP to go to the OHL, doesn't that mean that the OHL is a "step up" from the NTDP on the way to the NHL? Believe me, the CHL has been making a lot of inroads in getting players that would have been a lock to go to the NTDP just a few years ago (e.g., Bobby Ryan, Joey Ryan, Tommy Mannino, etc.), and Mantha pulling the "if I can't beat them, join them" routine will only help in their recruiting.

In theory, the NTDP has given the U.S. a better chance to win internationally. In reality, the number of World Championship (U-18 or WJC) medals that the U.S. has won since the program's inception: one. Although if I remember correctly, the NTDP did win a Prospects Tournament in Toronto a few years ago.

With the emergence of the USHL as a quality developmental league, I subscribe to Herb Brooks' point of view cited above.

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11-06-2003, 06:14 AM
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Thanks for your thoughts, friends.

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11-06-2003, 08:04 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penkil2m
The program is funded by USA Hockey.
The players do not recieve money as a stipend. The host family receives money as room and board from USA Hockey.
It's a great opportunity for american elite players to stay in the US, play with the best here, finish high school and hopefully receive a scholorship to a Div.1 college.
Players that decide to go to Canada lose the opportunity to go to college in this country. The Major Jr. Teams in Canada pay their players.
So what your saying is that players definately don't receive any money but their room, board and traveling expenses, meal expenses etc. are all paid for? This is not paying their player's?
Also doesn't Division 1 schools such as Hockey East provide a lot of the same benefits as well as a $30,000 to 40,000 dollar Hockey Scholarship?
This is not paying their player's?
If players decide to go play in Canada they can't attend a US college and get an Education?

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11-06-2003, 08:18 AM
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Mantha's exit may have a positive effect for the USNTDP...there has been more than one high-profile player who left the USNTDP for Canadian Junior because of disagreements between players and Mantha...I don't know anything other than what I've read about those situations so, I'm not trying to cast Mantha in a bad light...just stating that if he was a problem and he's not there anymore, then maybe some of those high-skilled players would still have been with the USNTDP...

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11-06-2003, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief
Mantha's exit may have a positive effect for the USNTDP...there has been more than one high-profile player who left the USNTDP for Canadian Junior because of disagreements between players and Mantha...I don't know anything other than what I've read about those situations so, I'm not trying to cast Mantha in a bad light...just stating that if he was a problem and he's not there anymore, then maybe some of those high-skilled players would still have been with the USNTDP...
Are you referring to Matt Lashoff?

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11-06-2003, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FiveforFighting
So what your saying is that players definately don't receive any money but their room, board and traveling expenses, meal expenses etc. are all paid for? This is not paying their player's?
Also doesn't Division 1 schools such as Hockey East provide a lot of the same benefits as well as a $30,000 to 40,000 dollar Hockey Scholarship?
This is not paying their player's?
If players decide to go play in Canada they can't attend a US college and get an Education?
no, they can GO TO COLLEGE, they just can't play ncaa hockey. there are players in the NHL who are currently taking college courses. stu grimson was going to law school while he was playing for the predators.

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11-06-2003, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief
Mantha's exit may have a positive effect for the USNTDP...there has been more than one high-profile player who left the USNTDP for Canadian Junior because of disagreements between players and Mantha...I don't know anything other than what I've read about those situations so, I'm not trying to cast Mantha in a bad light...just stating that if he was a problem and he's not there anymore, then maybe some of those high-skilled players would still have been with the USNTDP...
From what I have heard of Moe's abrasive coaching and management style, you might be right that his leaving will help to KEEP kids in the NTDP who are already there.

However, I think his jumping from the NTDP to the CHL will ultimately hurt them in BRINGING kids to the NTDP.

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11-06-2003, 02:06 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan
However, I think his jumping from the NTDP to the CHL will ultimately hurt them in BRINGING kids to the NTDP.
I don't think it will have that much of an effect. He's not the first to do this and probably won't be the last. The prestige of playing for your country has it's pull along with the bonus of still being eligible to play college hockey. The NTDP program has it's draws, just like the CHL teams have theirs. It's true though, the USHL is becoming more and more competitive and I can see how within the next ten years the NTDP program would not be so important to have around.

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11-06-2003, 02:20 PM
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My son is considering the NTDP for next year and Moe Mantha leaving has NO impact on our decision at all!

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11-06-2003, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigd
My son is considering the NTDP for next year and Moe Mantha leaving has NO impact on our decision at all!
No offense, but at this point in the season, there are probably 100 kids who believe that they are in a legitimate position to consider the NTDP for next year.

But just out of curiosity, would your answer change if Mantha himself were to call you and say, "Hey, I ran the NTDP, and I can tell you that the OHL and the Saginaw Spirit would be much better for your son's hockey development, plus we'll give you a full education package to the U.S. college of your choice as well!"

Can you honestly say that such a conversation would have no impact on your decision?

Because believe me, that is exactly what Mantha will be doing with U.S. kids that Saginaw wants to draft.

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11-07-2003, 11:04 AM
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Yes, I can honestly say that would have no impact on my son,s decision. He wants to play College hockey and he is very close to his decision on where he will go. Major Junior is not even an option. He is USA all the way. He dosen't care if it takes a couple extra years to reach his goals he wants the education first!

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11-07-2003, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigd
Yes, I can honestly say that would have no impact on my son,s decision. He wants to play College hockey and he is very close to his decision on where he will go. Major Junior is not even an option. He is USA all the way. He dosen't care if it takes a couple extra years to reach his goals he wants the education first!

He is 1988 birthdate and has laready decided what team he is going to pla for?

You do realize that you can get a solid education by going through the OHL don't you?

If the OHL is not even a consideration however, then the USHL should be.

I agree with Juan, Moe Mantha's departure will make it even harder for the NTDP to compete with the OHL.

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11-07-2003, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by VOB
He is 1988 birthdate and has laready decided what team he is going to pla for?

You do realize that you can get a solid education by going through the OHL don't you?

If the OHL is not even a consideration however, then the USHL should be.

I agree with Juan, Moe Mantha's departure will make it even harder for the NTDP to compete with the OHL.

Isn't there room for both (or all four as it were)? It seems that while alot of American kids are going the CHL route, there's also an excellent crop of kids attending U.S. colleges, the USHL, and the USNTDP. I think it's worthy to note that there are alot more American kids that play hockey at a high level, and can make the choice on where to play. That wasn't always the case.

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11-07-2003, 02:39 PM
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Most kids won't go back to school after playing 4 years of Juniors. If you do go back to College in the States you can't play on a D1 team. Get the education first and if your good enough you will make the jump from College to Pro. If a kid has any kid of smarts he will go the College route. If you are not a good student then Major Junior will probably be your best shot!

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11-07-2003, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by bigd
Most kids won't go back to school after playing 4 years of Juniors. If you do go back to College in the States you can't play on a D1 team. Get the education first and if your good enough you will make the jump from College to Pro. If a kid has any kid of smarts he will go the College route. If you are not a good student then Major Junior will probably be your best shot!

Most kids playing U.S. college hockey today are graduates from various Junior A leagues. It is the norm in most of these leagues to have 18. 19 and 20 year old players who are not in school and in fact been out of school for one two and even three years! This does not stop them, however, from going back to school and playing NCAA hockey!

In short you are DEAD WRONG about kids playing Major Junior hockey and school. The fact is that there were over 200 former OHL players playing Canadian University hockey on basically full rides! In fact 95% of all current OHL players are in school today!

Just because you do not take the U.S. college route, it doesn't mean you are foresaking your education. Just ask James Wisniewski of the Plymouth Whalers who is attending Eastern Michigan University full time and for FREE!

The OHL is becoming an ever more attractive route for American born players because they are now realizing that your education is being taken care of and you are playing in a developmental league that is amoung the best in the world. Many of them are asking themselves why play in an inferior Junior A league for two years and then go to college when I can play at an elite level as a 16 or 17 year old TODAY or they are saying to themselves why bother taking the college route and leaving early, without graduating, as many former college players and current NHL players have done?

To each his own bigd but don't knock kids who take the Major Junior route because they are smarter than you think.

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11-07-2003, 07:44 PM
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You can't compare Canadian University Hockey with a top D1 College hockey program in the states. I'm not knocking Major Junior Hockey but for every kid in Major Junior that goes back to school there are 100 that don't. Look at Jessie Lang, I bet he wishes he was still at Harvard right now!

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11-07-2003, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigd
You can't compare Canadian University Hockey with a top D1 College hockey program in the states. I'm not knocking Major Junior Hockey but for every kid in Major Junior that goes back to school there are 100 that don't. Look at Jessie Lang, I bet he wishes he was still at Harvard right now!

You have no idea behind the reasons for Lane leaving Harvard, so why bother with that point? Second, even if more kids from junior don't go back to school compared to College kids, so what? If a kid just doesn't want to go to school, then how can you count that against the CHL? They can't make a kid go. Also, kids come to the CHL more for the hockey anyways, despite the fact that the CHL has a very good education program. Fact is, you get twice as many games in the CHL as you do via NCAA and that is a huge consideration for players. I do interviews of players for the WHL and I typically ask them about whether they considered the NCAA route or not. There are many reasons for not going that way for them and, while you say "If a kid has any kid of smarts he will go the College route. If you are not a good student then Major Junior will probably be your best shot!", I think you will find there are plenty of "smart" kids in the CHL ranks. Just watch the Scholastic Player of the year nominees and see there average marks. It's not 'dumby school' up here either, so those grades are deserved. Personally, I think you need to do MUCH more research into the Major Junior program before commenting, as it is clear you are not as educated as you'd like to think. If you do truly have a child ready to enter the USNTDP, then I think you owe it to him to at least do some real research into the major junior program, instead of just dismissing it as a worthless idea.

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11-08-2003, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigd
You can't compare Canadian University Hockey with a top D1 College hockey program in the states. I'm not knocking Major Junior Hockey but for every kid in Major Junior that goes back to school there are 100 that don't. Look at Jessie Lang, I bet he wishes he was still at Harvard right now!

Do you have any proof of your 100:1 ratio bigd? I doubt it because again you are DEAD WRONG. As I said NINETY FIVE PERCENT of all current OHL players are going to school. The majority of those who do not go on to the pro ranks go to school after their OHL careers are over!

Its not Lang but Lane and he left Harvard because he said college hockey sucked. His parents are millionaires and he can go back to school whenever he likes!

As for the CIS vs NCAA, the CIS is improving and the top CIS teams can compete with their NCAA counterparts.

I am not knocking the NCAA (though I do believe that the NTDP should be disbanded) but if you are an elite level prospect with a great chance of making it to the pros, why would you want to take the NCAA route? Just look at all the NCAA players playing in the NHL today. Most of them never graduated because they ended up leaving early. So what was the point of them choosing that route in the first place? It certainly wasn't to earn a degree now was it?

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11-08-2003, 08:05 AM
  #22
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Can a US born player play Canadian University Hockey?

Because he can not play D1 after going to the OHL the last I knew do to the players getting paid. This is a major difference for kids born in the US vs Canada. Canadian kids know that if the OHL does not work out for them they can still go home and play University hockey. A USA born player can not get on a Division 1 team if he starts out in the OHL.

IMO if you are a good Us born player than the D1 route is for you. If you are a very,very good one than the CHL has much to offer.

Tim Connolly knew as a 16 year old that the chances were he was going to be a first round draft pick in the '99 draft. Playing in the OHL only help his ranking and has earned him a good bit of NHL dollars along the way.

Now take former teammate Matt Murly. Matt decied to go the NCAA way because his stock as a young player was not as high as Tim's (for good reason). Matt also has a chance to play in the OHL but chose to get a free ride to a very good school. Now he still has a chance to play pro hockey, but if that does not work out he has a education from a top end school to start his life with.

The thing is, unless you can be assured of a very high draft slot as a US born player, the NCAA is the much safer path career wise (do not read that as hockey career because we all know few of the CHL or NCAA players make it to the NHL).

Both leagues have thier good points and bad points. If I wasa parent of a young man who had the talent to go either way it would be a hard choice, but I would want my kid to attend a University over playing in the OHL. That is simply my opinion. You can read it as bias if you would like, but as a Erie Otters season tix holder I know and love the CHL game. I just feel its makes more sense for most US born kids to go the other way.

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11-08-2003, 08:37 AM
  #23
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Tiki, yes U.S. born players can go and play at Canadian schools. Secondly, Tim Conolly is a millionaire and can go earn a degree anytime he likes. Its like Bill Guerin said when he left college early to play in the pros, "I have a whole lifetime to earn a college degree but a short time to be a NHL player."


At one time the NCAA was indeed the safer career path but with the full ride education packages now offered to elite players by the OHL, the NCAA's "safety advantage" arguement is no longer valid.

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11-08-2003, 09:23 AM
  #24
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I can see that there is no right or wrong way with this discussion. As a parent and struggling blue collar worker I am thrilled to see that my son wants to play College hockey. I do not want him to follow in my footsteps working 70 hours a week and struggling to give his family all the oppertunities that I did not have. I definitly do not want to try and change his mind but if he wanted to explore the Major Junior route I would not say no. I have supported his decisions to this point and I see no reason to change now. Good luck to all which ever choice you make!

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11-08-2003, 09:37 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by bigd
I can see that there is no right or wrong way with this discussion. As a parent and struggling blue collar worker I am thrilled to see that my son wants to play College hockey. I do not want him to follow in my footsteps working 70 hours a week and struggling to give his family all the oppertunities that I did not have. I definitly do not want to try and change his mind but if he wanted to explore the Major Junior route I would not say no. I have supported his decisions to this point and I see no reason to change now. Good luck to all which ever choice you make!

Exactly bigd, you finally now understand. To many Americans are ignorant of what the OHL has to offer, but more and more are now finding out, much to the chagrin of the NCAA.

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