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This Just In : Julien's System Does NOT Work!!

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Old
11-13-2003, 09:19 PM
  #1
tinyzombies
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We will never be able to play a defensive system all year

We just don't have the players to do it. These guys all think they are offensive players, they weren't brought up in a defensive system, so they will never fully commit to it.

Look at Jersey and Minny. The players are taught the system in the minors,then they come up to the NHL with roles carved out for them.

We are not going to teach these old horses new tricks. You can just tell with the no-look passes in our own end and the half-ass play in front of the net. If a New Jersey Devil or Minny Wild player did that, they'd be benched the rest of the game!

What do you think?

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11-13-2003, 09:53 PM
  #2
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This Just In : Julien's System Does NOT Work!!

Well I am sorry guys but I'm just fed up with Claude Julien and this so called system.

Sure it may or may not work when we score the first goal, problem is the players can't take chances in fear of being the next games healthy scratch.

This system, and possibly Julien has to go. If the Habs fall 10 games below .500 I think it will be time for Gainey to bring in "his man", who that is I have no clue.

Even our offensive players can't play offensively in this system. Koivu, who I absolutely think is one of the best playmakers in the game, can't get his game going under Julien's system. Richard Zednik, how many goals does he have this year ???? Less then the amount of question marks on the question.

Jan Bulis ? Stuck on the "checking/useless line" even though he should be playing with Saku and Zednik.

And another thing, enough of musical forwards. You are suppose to figure out you lines in practice Claude !!

Has their been a game under Julien when we have had the same 12 forwards in the game on back to back nights..maybe once or twice.

It is impossible to develop chemistry when you are playing with different players on a nightly basis. Stick with the same lineup for 5 games, hell it could be any worse.

This is a team who needs to score some freakin goals.....could someone please tell me why Steve Begin was playing with decently offensive players ??

I've had as much as I can handle from Julien and his so called system. Sure it's great.....if we want to lose.

Buh bye Claude.

Unbiased Canadian

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Old
11-14-2003, 02:21 AM
  #3
StanleyCH25
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This is way too trendy.. When the team doesn't win, blame the coach.
So... when are we going to start making the players responsible?

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11-14-2003, 03:11 AM
  #4
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Disagree entirely.

It's been said numerous times that Julien's system will not be mistake-free since the players are not dimentional enough to play the system. This theory has held true and will continue until the youth take over.

It's been pointed out that teams with stability on the bench will outperform those with instability in the long term. Look at the Oilers for a good example of this.

Montreal needs an identity. The team needs to stop the revolving door behind the bench. Get the youth up, and fans need to stop worrying about losses or the system not working at this point in time. Of course it's not going to work. No team has a perfected system, and you expect the Habs to have one? With a proper system implemented, the Habs will float below .500 still, but will limit shots against and won't be dominated as often as they were under Therrien--where there was less stressed on the system.

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11-14-2003, 03:20 AM
  #5
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And in answer to the questions you posed....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unbiased Canadian
Sure it may or may not work when we score the first goal, problem is the players can't take chances in fear of being the next games healthy scratch.
This is the wrong mindframe. Players should TAKE chances in order to stay in the lineup. Perreault has been much better since being benched. He's actually played with some element of grit, even though I still believe him to be a liability and overall lacking in dimensions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unbiased Canadian
This system, and possibly Julien has to go. If the Habs fall 10 games below .500 I think it will be time for Gainey to bring in "his man", who that is I have no clue.
Remember how you, among many others, bashed Therrien on a daily basis and blamed him for everything wrong with the Canadiens? Does this not ring a bell with you? Why don't you admit that the Habs just aren't a very good team, player-wise? This is the real problem here, not the coach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unbiased Canadian
Even our offensive players can't play offensively in this system. Koivu, who I absolutely think is one of the best playmakers in the game, can't get his game going under Julien's system. Richard Zednik, how many goals does he have this year ???? Less then the amount of question marks on the question.
Koivu's been back 4 games and you're claiming he can't produce because of the system?

Zednik's been bad because he hasn't worked.

Koivu and Zednik have spent a lot of time in the offensive zone, they just haven't been able to score. That has nothing to do with the system. It's mind boggling that you would blame the system for Zednik or Koivu's lack of production.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unbiased Canadian
Jan Bulis ? Stuck on the "checking/useless line" even though he should be playing with Saku and Zednik.
He did play with Koivu and Zednik. What game were you watching last night?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unbiased Canadian
And another thing, enough of musical forwards. You are suppose to figure out you lines in practice Claude !!

Has their been a game under Julien when we have had the same 12 forwards in the game on back to back nights..maybe once or twice.

It is impossible to develop chemistry when you are playing with different players on a nightly basis. Stick with the same lineup for 5 games, hell it could be any worse.
This is a good point. Coaches should never mix their lines. Scotty Bowman, Jacques Lemaire and Marc Crawford, three of the bettter coaches the NHL has seen over the last decade do it every game and sometimes during a game, but we should criticize Julien for it.

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Old
11-14-2003, 03:24 AM
  #6
StorminZ
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It depends upon how you rate CJ's system.

Consider these facts:

Offensively:
  • We've been shutout 3 times this year (in 17 games)
    We've been held to 3 goals or less in 14 of 17 games
    For that matter, the games we scored 4 goals or more were 3 of the first 4 of the season
    We average ~26 shots for per game
    We average a woeful 1.88 goals for per game

Defensively:
  • We've shutout the opponent 4 times
    We've held our opponent to 3 goals or less in 12 of 17 games
    We average ~25 shots against per game
    We average a remarkable 2.11 GAA

Defensively, CJ's system is very sound (top 10), but we very weak offensively (only Chicago averages fewer goals scored per game at 1.82).

On the PP, we are at 15%, bottom third of the League. On the PK, we are 81.2%, again, bottom third of the League.

We are not an aggressive team at 12 PM per game average.

Then there is the ultimate stat, the W-L-T record -- the results are getting worse. For November, we are 1-4-1 and since we last scored 4 or more goals per game (that was game #4 of the season), we are 4-8-1. In those 13 games, we've been outscored 30-17. I guess what is scary about that is that in our first 4 games, we scored 15 goals ... in the next 13, we've only scored 17 ... a microscopic 1.3 goals per game.

Whose to blame? The Coach? The players? Both? It's one thing if a few guys are not producing to point to the players, but let's face it, CJ's system appears woeful from a goal-scoring perspective. And at the end of the day, we are 7-9-1 having gone 4-8-1 in our last 13 being outscored 30-17 and not having scored more than 3 goals in those last 13 games.

Something has to change! What? The trend is not looking good!

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Old
11-14-2003, 03:55 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
It's been pointed out that teams with stability on the bench will outperform those with instability in the long term. Look at the Oilers for a good example of this.

Montreal needs an identity. The team needs to stop the revolving door behind the bench.
I agree with this 100%.

The problem has been a string of hiring inexperienced, 2nd tier coaches.(Julien's one of them)

It would be great if we could have the same coach for 3+ seasons and I know it would do wonders for the success of the team. We need someone who is a presence behind the bench and commands instant respect and accountability, just like Gainey does from the GM position.

Unfortunately, I don't think Julien is the man for this job.

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Old
11-14-2003, 04:29 AM
  #8
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Our forwards can't put the puck in the net. Can't win hockey games when you can't score. It isn't the system, we are getting opporunities (look at the shot totals this year compared to last), it is simply the fact that our forwards don't seem able to put the puck in the net.

Bulis 1 goal on 39 shots!! 2.56% shooting percentage. He's working hard, but can't seem to put the puck in.

Zednik 2 goals on 50 shots! 4.00% shooting percentage. It's like he's forgotten how to score.

Combine Bulis and Zednik with Sundstrom, Koivu, Begin, Ryder, Hossa, Juneau & Audette and that group of forwards have scored 10 goals on 228 shots!!!! That is a 4.387% shooting percentage.

All the forwards combined have scored 23 goals on 312 shots. That around a 7% shooting percentage. That means these guys need 30 shots a game average to score 2 goals!!!!

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11-14-2003, 05:29 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darz
Our forwards can't put the puck in the net. Can't win hockey games when you can't score. It isn't the system, we are getting opporunities (look at the shot totals this year compared to last), it is simply the fact that our forwards don't seem able to put the puck in the net.

Bulis 1 goal on 39 shots!! 2.56% shooting percentage. He's working hard, but can't seem to put the puck in.

Zednik 2 goals on 50 shots! 4.00% shooting percentage. It's like he's forgotten how to score.

Combine Bulis and Zednik with Sundstrom, Koivu, Begin, Ryder, Hossa, Juneau & Audette and that group of forwards have scored 10 goals on 228 shots!!!! That is a 4.387% shooting percentage.

All the forwards combined have scored 23 goals on 312 shots. That around a 7% shooting percentage. That means these guys need 30 shots a game average to score 2 goals!!!!
The Hab's weakess department is the quality of their shooting. Bulis shoot soft pea shoots that are so ridiculous. In fact, we only have Souray who have an hard slap shot this year, and I forgot Perreault who is our only forward with a decent fast and precise wrist shot. Let's bring Steve Shut and Mike Bossy for shooting lessons. Our forwards are too small to stay 5 feets from the net without being push away, and their quality of shooting is not hard enough to score from more than 30 feets. So I'm not surprise Habs doesn't score.

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11-14-2003, 05:37 AM
  #10
Darz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HABitude
The Hab's weakess department is the quality of their shooting. .
That is my point exactly. Our forward unit has very few players who can actually put the puck in the net. You don't get shooting percentages like the one's I've listed when you forwards are putting great shots on net.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HABitude
Let's bring Steve Shut and Mike Bossy for shooting lessons. .
Couldn't hurt.

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11-14-2003, 05:52 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darz
Quote:
Originally Posted by HABitude Yeah baby
Let's bring Steve Shutt and Mike Bossy for shooting lessons.
Couldn't hurt.
Do you remember when Shutt was coach assistant and he tryed to learn how to make fast one-timer shoots? He put 100 pucks on the ice and the purpose was to shoot as fast a player can to an open net. Pierre Turgeon (who was our best forward) slaped with an average of 2.5 pucks per second. Shutt wasn't impressed. Shutt did the same exercise, it looked so fast, he slaped an average of 6 pucks per second. Most of them were on the net, real bullets of fire. It was 10 years after he retired. It was on the sports news. It was WOW!!

Mike Bossy said many times he was available to give shooting lessons to Hab players. The coaches on press conference always said it cannot be learned, it's a inner natural talent that only Bossy and others have (Hull, Shutt, Larmer, etc).
I think Bossy can help. If the shooting quality improve by 10%, it's already something signifiant.

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Old
11-14-2003, 06:19 AM
  #12
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CJ can be blamed (and I blamed him) for certain specific decisions, but to say he should go or his system doesn't work is far too extreme. His system works. He didn't invent it and it's not rocket science. Playing defense only needs commitment, a thing we don't get from everybody on a nightly basis.

But there's an other aspect that is often overlooked. Special units. We're among the worst of the league both in PP and PK (around 26th/27th for both I beleive). This is unacceptable for a team like us. Our lack of speed, grit and size can definitely be problematic 5 on 5 but a defensive oriented team like ours *MUST* capitalize on its scoring chances on the PP or this is what will happen all year. Losing by a 1-2 goal margin. We're limited talent wise, but not enough to justify our poor showing in this department. Players like Perreault, Koivu, Zednik, Ribeiro, Ryder, Hossa, Markov, Souray and Brisebois should be enough to get you by. This has IMO to become a priority during practices. And I mean the main, if not the only focus for a while.

If Guy Charron is not doing the job right, replace him. If he is, then it's time to try something, anything, to get it going. There's no movement whatsoever during PP and when a player dumps it in, the others don't go and get it back. Don't look further than that. There's a big part of the problem right there IMO. More movement, aggressivity and shots during PP will increase our chances of scoring during those opporunities and therefore win games, even if we don't score much 5 on 5.

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11-14-2003, 06:30 AM
  #13
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Dackell - Ribeiro - Perreault must be one of the slowest line in the NHL, just the idea of putting Perreault with Ribeiro was pretty awful.

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11-14-2003, 06:51 AM
  #14
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Julien's system is working... when you just look at the defensive aspect of the game, but it won't work better overall if the players don't show more EFFORT (a word that spells the same in English and French),

I am more and more sickened by the attitude and lack of effort that team is showing 4 games out of five. Us Habs fans don't deserve such a bad team !

It is time to bring new blood in that team and trade the disgruntled, heartless players.

Wake up Bo ! Bring some fresh air through trades, call-ups, whatever...
DO something ! Please.

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Old
11-14-2003, 08:54 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darz
Our forwards can't put the puck in the net. Can't win hockey games when you can't score. It isn't the system, we are getting opporunities (look at the shot totals this year compared to last), it is simply the fact that our forwards don't seem able to put the puck in the net.

Bulis 1 goal on 39 shots!! 2.56% shooting percentage. He's working hard, but can't seem to put the puck in.

Zednik 2 goals on 50 shots! 4.00% shooting percentage. It's like he's forgotten how to score.

Combine Bulis and Zednik with Sundstrom, Koivu, Begin, Ryder, Hossa, Juneau & Audette and that group of forwards have scored 10 goals on 228 shots!!!! That is a 4.387% shooting percentage.

All the forwards combined have scored 23 goals on 312 shots. That around a 7% shooting percentage. That means these guys need 30 shots a game average to score 2 goals!!!!
I think the reason they haven't been able to score is because the system requires a lot more defensive play from ALL of our forwards, not just our centerman. This creates a lot more ice in front of them on the way to our opponent's net! This means that we rarely get breakaways or odd man rushes. We can't consistently because we're constantly defending and counter-attacking and it never changes from beginning to end.

Cap

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Old
11-14-2003, 09:15 AM
  #16
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If you're going to complain about the coach, please refrain from complaining about the system - meant to improve the club defensively - which has done its job rather well. We're averaging barely over two goals a game against and that's a direct result of the system. I many have my misgivings when it comes to Julien, but including the system in those misgivings seems to be rather silly.

The system, which everyone likes to criticize for everything wrong with the Habs when they lose and everyone likes to praise when they win, is basically the trap. All he's instituted system-wise is responsibility for the forwards coming back and a zone, rather than a man-to-man defence. That's all the system is in general. Now we have five players in the zone who help out defensively in a zone manner thus allowing us to better cover the opposition. When we get control of the puck, the proximity of those players allows us to break out of the zone with a series of passes instead of constantly chipping it off the glass, thus leading to boring hockey. (I know many complain that it's boring hockey anyhow, but that's for another discussion.)

Offensively, there's been little done because the system is defensive. I would go as far as to say there's been little work on the offensive zone so far this year because every good coach in the NHL knows that the first part to winning a game is keeping the puck out of your net. Good offence comes from good defence, and I would imagine that's the second part of the plan that's slowly being introduced. Witness how, in the last couple of games we've had players storming the net, and despite not scoring, we're creating more traffic than at any time in the last five years. I submit to you that when we finally get some confidence by scoring a goal or two in quick succession, players will grip there sticks a little more loosely and the goals will come naturally.

If you have a beef with the coach, then talk about the youth movement, and the lack of faith he seems to have in them. That's fair game. "We shall live or die with the rookies", our once mantra, seems to have been flushed in the wake of hurricanes Audette and Perreault. Now, I completely see where rookies need time and need to be worked into the lineup, however I would also like to say that some of the better coaches in hockey insert their rookies in a high profile spot and just let them grow with the game.

As for juggling lines game by game and shift by shift, anyone who thinks that's a bad way to coach hasn't watched any good coaching. *shrugs* I guess you're used to the Vigneaults and the Therriens of the coaching world. But all of that has been stated already in this thread and I'll leave it alone.

Complain about the coach for legitimate reasons? Fine. Complain because of the system? Well, I would submit that you just don't understand the system.

A concerned fan.

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Old
11-14-2003, 09:37 AM
  #17
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I do agree that the system is not entirely Julien's fault. It is a system that has been around since the trap was invented. It's up to a coach to implement a system that his players will follow and will want to follow. Here is where our personnel comes into question. Overall I think we play better defensively than we have in years, but the cost is too great if you ask me. Also, it's not the system that we're questioning, it's the lineup/line changes that CJ is making. I just can't figure out where he's going with them.

Cap

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Old
11-14-2003, 10:44 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capitano
...
When things aren't going well, a coach will play around with his lines to see if he can generate any chemistry. Although I do agree that some lines just seemed really out of place (Ribeiro, Perreault and Dackell????)

As it stands, I still think this is some of our better lineups this year:

Audette-Koivu-Zednik
Perreault-Koivu-Zednik
Bulis-Koivu-Zednik (I liked this line last year but Bulis isn't

Ryder-Ribeiro-Hossa (I really like this line together)
Ryder-Ribeiro-Zednik
Bulis-Ribeiro-Zednik (wouldn't mind trying this line together)
Hossa-Ribeiro-Zednik

Sundstrom-Juneau-Dackell
Bulis-Juneau-Dackell
Ward-Juneau-Dackell
Perreault-Juneau-Dackell

Kilger-Begin-Langdon
Ward-Begin-Langdon
Ward-Begin-Kilger


The way I see it, this is what we have:

Potential 1st line material:
Koivu - 1/2 Zednik

Potential 2nd line material:
1/2 Zednik - Ribeiro - Ryder - Hossa - Perreault - Audette - Bulis

Potential 3rd line material:
Juneau - Dackell - 1/2 Ward - Sundstrom - 1/2 Begin

Potential 4th line material:
1/2 Begin - 1/2 Ward - Kilger - Langdon


Mix and match all you want but in most games, if we fall behind, we don't have much firepower to get back ahead and until we do, we are going to have to play a chess game with other teams and hope that we come out on top.

The good news is that there's been a positive change in the number of chances we are giving opposing teams to score. We've really lowered the amount of shots against and also have lowered the scoring chances (which is a much more important stat but not being tracked). On the other hand, we've also increased our shots on goal and also have seen a bit more scoring chances come from it though I still don't think many of our shots are very threatening.

The biggest problem I see so far is that we are NOT burying our scoring chances very often. Players fumble their passes, miss the net, hit the post or just take too much time to take their shots.

I'm hoping that once Julien is satisfied with the defensive side of the game that he will start focusing on one-timer drills and puck control.

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11-14-2003, 11:03 AM
  #19
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Continued...


And that's where I think our main focus should be... one timer drills, puck control and puck movement and cycling. Once we improve in these areas, I think we will also see our powerplay improve (which definately needs attention as well). On the PK side of things, well, I just don't like Charron's system at all and much preferred how Carbonneau handled it at the time although it has improved quite a bit this year under Julien's approach (even if the stats don't prove this).

What I'd really like to see though is for BG to find us a true sniper with speed and decent size.

Anything out there available at a reasonable cost? (probably not)

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