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Has there ever been a player to win the Hart, but not his respective specific trophy?

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Old
08-12-2006, 09:34 PM
  #1
type_v
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Has there ever been a player to win the Hart, but not his respective specific trophy?

This is probably only concerning three trophies that I can think of:

Norris
Vezina(after it became best goaltender and not best GAA)
Calder

The other trophies are more about statistics or too narrow to really be concidered (ie. Selke or Lady Bing, a player can be the best defensive forward without being the best player)

It should be impossible for those three trophies, but has it ever happened?

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08-12-2006, 09:41 PM
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Al Rollins of the Chicago Blackhawks won the Hart in 1954. He did not win the Vezina, but at that point the Vezina was given to the goalie with the lowest GAA.

That was the only time, the majority of the winners are forwards though.

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08-12-2006, 09:51 PM
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Gretzky won the hart in '79-'80 but Bourque won the calder. Gretzky did win rookie of the year the year before when edmonton was in the WHA, so this may not count

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08-12-2006, 09:57 PM
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Probably shouldn't count since Gretzky wasnt eligible for the Calder that yeat.

Maybe a better question would be, how often does a Hart winner not win another tophy (so that forwards are included, since they win it most often).

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08-13-2006, 03:11 AM
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The problem is, the Hart is so strongly biassed against goalies and defencemen that a goalie or d-man has to play significantly better than everyone else to get a chance at the Hart.

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08-13-2006, 08:36 AM
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Al Rollins, 54, and Teeder Kennedy, 55, are the only two to win the Hart and not make either the 1st or 2nd all-star teams. There have been a few more that were Hart winners and 2nd team all-stars, Jose Theodore, 02, and Gretzky, 89, were the last two to do it.

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08-13-2006, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Al Rollins, 54, and Teeder Kennedy, 55, are the only two to win the Hart and not make either the 1st or 2nd all-star teams. There have been a few more that were Hart winners and 2nd team all-stars, Jose Theodore, 02, and Gretzky, 89, were the last two to do it.
In 71-72 Dryden was 2nd in Hart voting to only Bobby Orr and yet he was second team All-star to Esposito at goalie. Tony Esposito was 6th in Hart voting.

In 72-73 Bobby Clarke won the Hart trophy and yet was 2nd team All-star to Phil Esposito at centre. Phil Esposito was 2nd in Hart voting and won the Art Ross. Clarke was 2nd in NHL scoring.

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08-13-2006, 12:44 PM
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Well the year Jose Theodore won the Hart and the Vezina trophies, he didn't make the First All Star team (Patrick Roy).

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08-13-2006, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Darz View Post
Well the year Jose Theodore won the Hart and the Vezina trophies, he didn't make the First All Star team (Patrick Roy).
I don't understand how you win the Vezina (best goalie) and not make the First All Star team (best at each position?).

Hart is still the most valuable to his team and that's not necessarily the best player, but Vezina is undebatably the best goaltender and First All Star team is also the best players not anything else.

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08-13-2006, 02:13 PM
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Ron Hextall won the Vezina (and Conn Smythe) in 1987 but lost out on the Calder to Luc Robitaille.

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08-13-2006, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by XploD View Post
I don't understand how you win the Vezina (best goalie) and not make the First All Star team (best at each position?).

Hart is still the most valuable to his team and that's not necessarily the best player, but Vezina is undebatably the best goaltender and First All Star team is also the best players not anything else.
Jose Theodore was somehow a little bit luck in 2002. He was tied with Roy for Vezina, and tied with Iginla for Hart, but won both trophies because he had more 1st place in the votes.

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08-13-2006, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by XploD View Post
I don't understand how you win the Vezina (best goalie) and not make the First All Star team (best at each position?).
Cause Roy deserved all three of those that year.

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08-14-2006, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by XploD View Post
I don't understand how you win the Vezina (best goalie) and not make the First All Star team (best at each position?).

Hart is still the most valuable to his team and that's not necessarily the best player, but Vezina is undebatably the best goaltender and First All Star team is also the best players not anything else.
I believe it has something to do with the fact that the GM's vote for the Vezina, but the hockey writers vote for the all star teams, so......

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08-14-2006, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Darz View Post
I believe it has something to do with the fact that the GM's vote for the Vezina, but the hockey writers vote for the all star teams, so......
That'd explain it I guess. Pretty ironic.

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08-14-2006, 11:36 AM
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There really isn't much of a congruency in standards/voters between the Hart and all-stars, the Pearson and all-stars, or the Vezina and all-stars.

The Hart is awarded to the Most VALUABLE Player. All-stars are for the best player at each position. A world of difference. There were many examples in the past of a player winning the Hart, but not being a first-team all-star. (Which have been covered earlier).

The Pearson does go to the best PLAYER in the league, but it's chosen by the players. The all-stars are chosen by the media. Jean Ratelle won the Pearson in 1972, but was a second-team all-star. Steve Yzerman won the Pearson in 1989, but wasn't an all-star.

The Vezina is voted by the GMs, the all-stars are chosen by the media, although the two are usually alligned.

The Calder and the All-Rookie Team are both chosen by the media. When Bure won the Calder in 1992, he didn't make the ART. Voters didn't know whether he was an RW or an LW, so he got plenty of votes for both, but not enough to make the ART at either position. As much as I don't like Bure, he would have been a better choice than Gilbert Dionne.

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08-14-2006, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post

The Pearson does go to the best PLAYER in the league, but it's chosen by the players. The all-stars are chosen by the media. Jean Ratelle won the Pearson in 1972, but was a second-team all-star. Steve Yzerman won the Pearson in 1989, but wasn't an all-star.
For the life of me, I can't understand how Yzerman won the Pearson over Lemieux that season. It seems like the players just vote for a feel-good story or something...I have no idea. Yzerman had 155 points, Lemieux had 199 (85 goals!). Lemeiux's team had more points in the standings as well. Boggles the mind.

The Hart being "most valuable" is subjective. But for the best player, well, there's just some picks that don't make much sense. Was Jean Ratelle EVER better than Bobby Orr? Hell, why did Bobby Orr only end up with one, when I keep hearing that he was head and shoulders above anyone else in his era? Surely the players he played against would notice. Was Orr overrated, or is the voting as suspect as I'm beginning to think?

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08-14-2006, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
For the life of me, I can't understand how Yzerman won the Pearson over Lemieux that season. It seems like the players just vote for a feel-good story or something...I have no idea. Yzerman had 155 points, Lemieux had 199 (85 goals!). Lemeiux's team had more points in the standings as well. Boggles the mind.

The Hart being "most valuable" is subjective. But for the best player, well, there's just some picks that don't make much sense. Was Jean Ratelle EVER better than Bobby Orr? Hell, why did Bobby Orr only end up with one, when I keep hearing that he was head and shoulders above anyone else in his era? Surely the players he played against would notice. Was Orr overrated, or is the voting as suspect as I'm beginning to think?
Some players are more popular than others and will get more votes as a result. I'm sure there are a few players who watch a lot of gametape of the entire league and are reasonably accurate. But I'd sure there are far more players who maybe read a few boxscores in the paper and rely on word of mouth to inform them about how other players are performing.

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08-14-2006, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
For the life of me, I can't understand how Yzerman won the Pearson over Lemieux that season. It seems like the players just vote for a feel-good story or something...I have no idea. Yzerman had 155 points, Lemieux had 199 (85 goals!). Lemeiux's team had more points in the standings as well. Boggles the mind.

The Hart being "most valuable" is subjective. But for the best player, well, there's just some picks that don't make much sense. Was Jean Ratelle EVER better than Bobby Orr? Hell, why did Bobby Orr only end up with one, when I keep hearing that he was head and shoulders above anyone else in his era? Surely the players he played against would notice. Was Orr overrated, or is the voting as suspect as I'm beginning to think?
Yzerman had 150-plus points that season. He turned Gerard Gallant into a 50-goal scorer and a second-team all-star LW.

I believe Yzerman also won THN's MVP award that year, too.

I have always maintained that Yzerman definitely deserved the Hart that year, while Lemieux should have received the Pearson. The players and media have often had the MVP/MOP split correct. (2000 and 2002 come to mind). They did not in 1989.

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08-14-2006, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Yzerman had 150-plus points that season. He turned Gerard Gallant into a 50-goal scorer and a second-team all-star LW.

I believe Yzerman also won THN's MVP award that year, too.

I have always maintained that Yzerman definitely deserved the Hart that year, while Lemieux should have received the Pearson. The players and media have often had the MVP/MOP split correct. (2000 and 2002 come to mind). They did not in 1989.
Gallant only had 39 goals that season, 93 points total.

By comparison, Rob Brown scored 119 points (49 goals) with Lemieux that season, in fewer games too.

And it wasn't like Yzerman was playing the selke-winning defence he had later in his career.

Lemieux out-scored him by 44 points, in 4 fewer games as well (his +/- was about 30 points higher too). That point difference to me is insurmountable, when we're talking about guys who were essentially in the same situation that year. Both were carrying mediocre teams on their backs, and making marginal linemates look great. While Yzerman's team won their division, Lemieux's team finished with 6 more wins.

For me, the colossal difference between 155 and 199 is too much to overlook. Lemieux even blew Gretzky away by 30 points that season.

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08-19-2006, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Al Rollins, 54, and Teeder Kennedy, 55, are the only two to win the Hart and not make either the 1st or 2nd all-star teams. There have been a few more that were Hart winners and 2nd team all-stars, Jose Theodore, 02, and Gretzky, 89, were the last two to do it.
Al Rollins had a very interesting 9 year career in the 6 team NHL. Won a vezina & stanley cup with the Leafs and a hart with a very bad Blackhawk team. Yet he never was voted on to the 1st or 2nd allstar team.

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08-19-2006, 03:19 PM
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Al Rollins had a very interesting 9 year career in the 6 team NHL. Won a vezina & stanley cup with the Leafs and a hart with a very bad Blackhawk team. Yet he never was voted on to the 1st or 2nd allstar team.
He was also the runner-up for the Hart in 53.

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08-20-2006, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
For the life of me, I can't understand how Yzerman won the Pearson over Lemieux that season. It seems like the players just vote for a feel-good story or something...I have no idea. Yzerman had 155 points, Lemieux had 199 (85 goals!). Lemeiux's team had more points in the standings as well. Boggles the mind.

The Hart being "most valuable" is subjective. But for the best player, well, there's just some picks that don't make much sense. Was Jean Ratelle EVER better than Bobby Orr? Hell, why did Bobby Orr only end up with one, when I keep hearing that he was head and shoulders above anyone else in his era? Surely the players he played against would notice. Was Orr overrated, or is the voting as suspect as I'm beginning to think?
Dionne's 1979 Pearson wins also come to mind. No doubt the guy was a great player, but IMO Trottier was clearly better in 79. The only thing I can think resulted in the win was a vote split among Isles players in 79.

Other than goal scoring, I can't think of an area where Dionne was better than Trots in 79.

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08-20-2006, 07:44 AM
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That'd explain it I guess. Pretty ironic.
actually, that is in no way, shape, or form irony.

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08-20-2006, 08:28 AM
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actually, that is in no way, shape, or form irony.
Well I think the Vezina winner not being in the first all-star team is pretty ironic.

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