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I'm tired of hering that the Q is...

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Old
11-14-2003, 05:51 PM
  #26
RyanM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Douggy
Of the three Canadian Junior leagues, there is obviously going to be a best and a worst. I'm not sure what the best is, but if the Q happens to be the worst, oh well... thats the way the cookies crumble.
Exactly. And with the state the NHL is in, I guess us Q fans can blame the OHL and WHL for producing all these 6'4 players with no skill

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11-14-2003, 06:14 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by RyanM
Exactly. And with the state the NHL is in, I guess us Q fans can blame the OHL and WHL for producing all these 6'4 players with no skill
Amen.

If watching two leagues full of New Jerseys is your cup of tea, then the Oh and the Dub are fine. If "watching flies ****" (forgive the Carlinism) is your cup of tea, that is.

If you want to watch the hockey that you and I grew up watching, hockey that actually resembles hockey and not soccer, then watch the Q.

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11-14-2003, 07:07 PM
  #28
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Look at the CHL top 10..how many 'Q' teams there ??? yea, exactly..enough said


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11-14-2003, 07:31 PM
  #29
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On the G position, QMJHL is dominating any development league in the world. I will be curious to know the pct of QMJHL goalies in the NHL compared with the O and the W. I think we should talk about goalies, this only point make the QMJHL maybe a better development league than the O and the W, if not it make the league at least equal with the other two...

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11-14-2003, 07:43 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anfernic
I don't know why but it seems that a lot of people think that the Q not in the same class as OHL and WHL.

The Q as produce a lot of talent in the past years, and even if they were drafted late some players have succesfull carrer.

Some example of young player

Top nhl players: Lecavalier - Tanguay - Richards - Gagne - Daze - Brière - Nagy - Dumont

Rising star: Bergeron - King - Hemsky - Bouchard - Ribeiro - Lombardi

Good player: Daigle - Abid

Goaltender: Fleury - Denis - Theodore - Luongo - Giguère - Garon
__________________________________________________ _________
Great nhl star who played in the Q: Lemieux - LaFontaine - Lafleur - Bourque - Hawerchuck - Roy - Brodeur - Bossy

All those are or will be for sur in the hall of fame so shut up with your comments like the Q is a less talent league.

And to conclude in the next years some very great hockey players will arrive in the nhl from the Q I will name you some of the name to remeber

Sydney Crosby - Steve Bernier - M-A Pouliot - Guillame Latendresse - Romy Elayoubi - Mathieu Carle - J-P Paquet - Luc Bourdon - Alexandre Picard - Alex Bourret - Kevin Maillhot

Never Agreed With anyone more in my life,

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11-14-2003, 09:26 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanM
Exactly. And with the state the NHL is in, I guess us Q fans can blame the OHL and WHL for producing all these 6'4 players with no skill

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11-14-2003, 09:32 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Doomsday Device
When exactly were they above the WHL and OHL to begin with?
Who knows, I'm from Pittsburgh, where 'professional' hockey was founded.

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11-14-2003, 10:46 PM
  #33
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The way I figure it is this, the point of the CHL is to produce players to play in the NHL, who cares who wins between WHL, OHL and QMJHL teams, it basically say which league has the best TEAMS, but teams do not move up to the NHL, players do, so they should be ranked on the ability and volume of players they have produced that are playing in the NHL. I'm gonna scour NHL rosters and check out where the players are all from and then maybe find some way to compare the talent levels of the players produced.

Coming Soon.....

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Old
11-14-2003, 11:15 PM
  #34
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People should stop trying to compete about everything, it's kinda pathetic.

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11-15-2003, 12:11 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erngueva
On the G position, QMJHL is dominating any development league in the world. I will be curious to know the pct of QMJHL goalies in the NHL compared with the O and the W. I think we should talk about goalies, this only point make the QMJHL maybe a better development league than the O and the W, if not it make the league at least equal with the other two...
Yep, gotta love the goalies from the Q

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Old
11-15-2003, 03:23 AM
  #36
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87 born d-men

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anfernic
For the defensive aspect I'am agree but the goaltender are better than in the oter league so don't say that players like Simon Gamache, Pierre-Marc Bouchard or Sidney Crosby who had high scoring season have these numbers because they play in the Q (That for these kind of argument that I post these thread, like u can see I'm agree that the Q has some weakness but please respect our forward, and in the first post of that thread I identified some great players who played in the Q and the majority of them are forward.)

And right now in the Q they are three 87 born that should be pick in the first round of the 2005 draft. Just to show you that things are changing

Luc Bourdon - Mathieu Carle - Jean-Philippe Paquet

Don't forget Andrew Andricopolous/ Quebec as a potential 1st rounder in 2005.

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Old
11-15-2003, 04:12 AM
  #37
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All these people talking about how the Q would be a better league producing more players if the game wasn't played in a trap make me laugh. The game is that way now and doesn't look like it will stop, so why bother with this asinine ranting that has no basis on anything other than assumption?

The Q has been an incredible developmental league for goalies. No one denies that and pretty much every "expert", as long as he isn't a jackass, gives the Q props on that. It's the defense that comes into play year in year out on why it is an inferior league. It's downright laughable.

THe whole thing is, if the Q ever DID get better defense than it wouldn't be the league that everyone knows it as. It would be the same as the OHL and the WHL since they actually both have extremely good defenses. You wouldn't have these small guys scoring 120+ points with a better defensive system.

The Q is the most unique league on the planet and probably one of the last with the high scoring small finesse type game. It's the most fun to watch, but that does not make it the best in the long run (or at all). I prefer to watch Q games to a WHL or OHL game, but it doesn't matter since they do not end up winning the Mem. Cup or producing as much NHL players. The Mem. Cup stats speak VOLUMES on the state of the Q currently.

Finishing second place... Having more Top 10 teams... What does this have to do with anything? It's kind of sad that people think these are GOOD facts when the teams lose in the Mem. Cup year in, year out. It's like the damn Red Sox. Who the hell would want to praise second place? Jesus. You play to WIN. And if you don't win, then you are not superior.

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Old
11-15-2003, 06:44 AM
  #38
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All 3 leagues are good at prodcuing NHL players. They just seem to produce different types.

I know this may sound stereotypical but the WHL is a defensmen factory, and they produce gritty players. The Q usually puts out offensive players and goalies, very rare that the Q puts out a bluechip defensmen. OHL is somewhere in the middle.

I think what most Q fans want is for the Q to be thought of as "equal" We are not trying to argue that the Q is better. But most fans around Canada seem to think of the Q as a weak sister.

Also we have 4 less teams than both the WHL and OHL, we just recently got an American franchise which will open the door for americans, but the OHL and WHL have had american teams for years. They have had a head start on luring americans. This could also lead to the difference in drafted players.

Q had 3 less drafted players than the OHL, yet had 4 less teams. By percentage 2003 was a better draft for the QMJHL.

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Old
11-15-2003, 06:52 AM
  #39
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Reveille --- When was the last time you watched a QMJHL league game? Because currently there are 5-6 coaches who regularly use the trap. The Q has changed a lot on the last 6-7 years.

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11-15-2003, 07:30 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La-La-Laprise
All 3 leagues are good at prodcuing NHL players. They just seem to produce different types.

I know this may sound stereotypical but the WHL is a defensmen factory, and they produce gritty players. The Q usually puts out offensive players and goalies, very rare that the Q puts out a bluechip defensmen. OHL is somewhere in the middle.

I think what most Q fans want is for the Q to be thought of as "equal" We are not trying to argue that the Q is better. But most fans around Canada seem to think of the Q as a weak sister.

Also we have 4 less teams than both the WHL and OHL, we just recently got an American franchise which will open the door for americans, but the OHL and WHL have had american teams for years. They have had a head start on luring americans. This could also lead to the difference in drafted players.

Q had 3 less drafted players than the OHL, yet had 4 less teams. By percentage 2003 was a better draft for the QMJHL.
Be happy that the Q doesn't have as many teams as the other two leagues. Since the WHL expanded to 20 teams, there has been a noticeable dilution of the talent pool in the league. I think back to some of the teams that I saw play in the early-mid '90s in the WHL and they were stocked with scary amounts of talent. If you played in the league, you belonged. Now every team has roster filler that is really Junior A calibre talent at best.

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11-15-2003, 07:30 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La-La-Laprise
All 3 leagues are good at prodcuing NHL players.
I think what most Q fans want is for the Q to be thought of as "equal" We are not trying to argue that the Q is better. But most fans around Canada seem to think of the Q as a weak sister.
Thats exactly what I think

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Old
11-15-2003, 08:43 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erngueva
On the G position, QMJHL is dominating any development league in the world. I will be curious to know the pct of QMJHL goalies in the NHL compared with the O and the W. I think we should talk about goalies, this only point make the QMJHL maybe a better development league than the O and the W, if not it make the league at least equal with the other two...
One of the main reasons that QMJHL goalies have done so well, is because of the poor defense in the QMJHL. When a goalie faces alot of shots and high quality ones at that due to poor defensive play, he will tend to develop quicker and into a better goalie. Plus when he goes for a situation where he's facing 35 shots a game and 15 excellent scoring chances a game, to a situation where he's facing 20 shots per game and 5 scoring chances, the game actually appears easier to the goalie. Hence why Q goalies are making the transition to the NHL alot better than their OHL and WHL counterparts.

Pat Roy is an excellent and possibly the best example. His GAA in the Q was around 4 or 5 and he faced about 40-50 shots per game. Once he came to the Habs with their strong defense, he was able to adapt to the NHL game pretty easily.

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Old
11-15-2003, 08:46 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brazor
Jesus, what the hell, guys. Do the kids in Quebec eat something different when young to make them suck??? No. It's a different style of hockey that has evoled from a rich and storied hockey background. Unfortunately, a la New Jersey Devils, one that can not survive in today's hockey world. I believe in the end, the Q will once again rise above the other two leagues.

Besides, the best way to judge the quality of the leagues is the amount of 2nd and 3rd tier players that make the big dance; and perhaps the number of big busts.
Never said it was the kids fault. The problem is in the way the Q develops players. They are not adequately preparing defensemen and forwards for the NHL. I'm sure if many of these kids had played in the WHL or OHL there chances of developing NHL type skills would have been much greater.

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Old
11-15-2003, 09:17 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Joe
One of the main reasons that QMJHL goalies have done so well, is because of the poor defense in the QMJHL. When a goalie faces alot of shots and high quality ones at that due to poor defensive play, he will tend to develop quicker and into a better goalie. Plus when he goes for a situation where he's facing 35 shots a game and 15 excellent scoring chances a game, to a situation where he's facing 20 shots per game and 5 scoring chances, the game actually appears easier to the goalie. Hence why Q goalies are making the transition to the NHL alot better than their OHL and WHL counterparts.

Pat Roy is an excellent and possibly the best example. His GAA in the Q was around 4 or 5 and he faced about 40-50 shots per game. Once he came to the Habs with their strong defense, he was able to adapt to the NHL game pretty easily.
It could also be that Quebec goalies have goalie coaches as early as Bantam and Midget hockey, where as OHL and WHL kids only started having goalie coaches at the junior level recently.

Also if you have played goal youd know that facing 35 shots is probably better than 15. When goalies face such a little amount of shots they tend not to stay focused.

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Old
11-15-2003, 09:19 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Joe
Never said it was the kids fault. The problem is in the way the Q develops players. They are not adequately preparing defensemen and forwards for the NHL. I'm sure if many of these kids had played in the WHL or OHL there chances of developing NHL type skills would have been much greater.
There really is no way of proving that. You are just assuming.

Kids growing up in Quebec are typcially smaller. If you look around the league youd know that. How many 5'10 dman make the NHL? There are a lot of very good 5'10 and 5'11 dmen in the Q. It isnt their fault they didnt grow.

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11-15-2003, 09:30 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Joe
Never said it was the kids fault. The problem is in the way the Q develops players. They are not adequately preparing defensemen and forwards for the NHL. I'm sure if many of these kids had played in the WHL or OHL there chances of developing NHL type skills would have been much greater.
To be fair, though, I think the forwards DO develop NHL skills. They're just different type of skills

The record for developing defensemen is pathetic.

Coaching is an issue and so are role models. It seems there are few homegrown talent to idolize. Patrick Roy has had an enormous impact on youngsters and now the people he has influenced directly or indirectly (Brodeur, Luongo, Theo, Giguere) are probably having a lesser but still tangible impact as well.

One of the few guys who could have had an influence is Ray Bourque. But Ray was playing for a huge rival and is one of the most "americanized" Québecois ever. He speaks french with an accent, for chrissakes. He felt right at home in Boston, loved the organisation, the fans and the community and said he was going to retire there many, many years before he hung up his skates. He was also a fairly quiet guy.

There is also a lack of awareness on defensemen, defensive play, physical play and play without the puck in the province's media. I'm not asking for Dinosaur Don Cherry here but those aspects of the game have to be *appreciated* more than they are right now. This lack of awareness and appreciation obviously rubs on viewers because I am a firm believer (even more so since I have a dish and Centre Ice) that the media have a fairly important impact on their audience. Whether they are saying crap or not, that's what people will take to the bank.

And when you spend years watching analysts like Michel Bergeron and Mario Tremblay on the national network, crap is what you are going to get as a rule of thumb.

This is even more alarming because unlike a faithful Flames, Avs, Trashers or Sabres viewer, the francophone hockey fan who doesn't speak English is stuck with no alternative. And different perspectives will usually make for a more complete and accurate picture than any single point of view, no matter how great the source.

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Old
11-15-2003, 09:40 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La-La-Laprise
It could also be that Quebec goalies have goalie coaches as early as Bantam and Midget hockey, where as OHL and WHL kids only started having goalie coaches at the junior level recently.

Also if you have played goal youd know that facing 35 shots is probably better than 15. When goalies face such a little amount of shots they tend not to stay focused.
I've played goalie since the mid-70's. Beat a future NHL goalie for outstanding goalie in a tournament when I was playing competively. Unfortunately a brutal set of knees ended my hopes of playing Junior or NCAA hockey. Had the opportunity to play against a fair share of future NHL players.

The point I was making that during your development if you are facing 40 spg vs 20-25 for your counterparts, you are going to develop faster and quite possibly better.

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Old
11-15-2003, 09:41 AM
  #48
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One other thing should be noted. The NHL is an ever-growing league. There is not one single NHL snapshot to take. The style of the game is ever-evolving.

At this point, the direction the NHL is taking is more attuned to the Q than it was 10 years ago. As a result, we're seeing a couple of success stories. Small forwards making it and having a fairly good impact.

The Q has some good stuff to offer. But better coaching will be required if we want better defensemen, more teaching for the teachers themselves.

But I like how certain forwards are doing out there. And I think the game is more free-flowing than it was many years ago. I don't think some of the forwards would do as well at the height of the hooking/obstruction days.

The crackdown on obstruction is not a complete success but we seem to be getting there step by step and that bodes well for the all-skill players. The Q has many of that.

Really, it's not that bad. A step behind in some areas, a step ahead in some areas. All three CHL league have something to offer. They are microcosms and naturally, you see trends in them. Why is the WHL developing so MANY high profile defensemen? Why doesn't the OHL do the same, for instance?

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11-15-2003, 09:46 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reveille
it doesn't matter since they do not end up winning the Mem. Cup or producing as much NHL players. The Mem. Cup stats speak VOLUMES on the state of the Q currently.
It does? How so?

I think the Memorial Cup is a very, very small sample of what each league has to offer under special circumstances.

It doesn't speak "VOLUMES" at all.

You gotta look at a larger sample before reaching those conclusions. And the way the leagues are set up, it is not economically feasable to do so.

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11-15-2003, 09:48 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Joe
I've played goalie since the mid-70's. Beat a future NHL goalie for outstanding goalie in a tournament when I was playing competively. Unfortunately a brutal set of knees ended my hopes of playing Junior or NCAA hockey. Had the opportunity to play against a fair share of future NHL players.

The point I was making that during your development if you are facing 40 spg vs 20-25 for your counterparts, you are going to develop faster and quite possibly better.

True, i guess it would help facing more shots. But still in game situations its not overly good to only face 15 shots.

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