Do the Panthers need an enforcer?

[Lauser3*]

would you care to share how many of those afformentioned, "goons" spent time in the AHL?

See, not all those guys above are "true" enforcers...but they're willing fighters and/or have played the role at some point in their careers.

if they were so important, why they would spend time in the ahl?

Ever hear of conditioning stints? Development time? Or already a guy like you on our team right now?

lets go over your list, shall we?

I thought we were going to wait? But okay, let's...

brashear: ok...

One.

eric boulton: only played 51 games....but decent enough for a goon i suppose.

Was suspended for 6 games and spent no time in the AHL last year. Two.

sutton: not an enforcer, servicable defensman that can fight.

Never said he was an enforcer, but he's big, dirty and fights and will give the Panthers trouble this season.

boulerice: consistent healthy scratch, only played 30-some games and spent time in the ahl

He played a whopping 1 game in the AHL last year. Most of the season he spent in the pressbox but at the NHL level nonetheless. In Carolina, they were grooming/riding Mike Commodore for the role (like Montador and Allison were doing for Florida). St. Louis had Jamal Mayers playing the role this season, and like this season, will be going with a lineup full of willing combatants. "Team toughness" if you will. Carolina likes him though (obviously). Three.

luke richardson: far from being an enforcer

Never said he was good at it but he played the role in Philadelphia while the Flyers were looking for their true heavyweight. He's more of a willing fighter ("goon") than an enforcer though, but with Tampa Bay losing Dingman, who do you think Tampa Bay will be looking to fill the role if Fritz doesn't make the roster? 100+ fights and counting. Four.

fritz: give me a break

Never said he was a definite since he has a two-way, but that is his role and Tampa Bay seems to see promise - "We are very pleased to have Mitch under contract for another season. As we have told him in the past, if he is able to continue to improve his skating and demonstrate the ability to contribute consistently on an every shift basis, he will become an NHL regular,” Feaster said. “He is, pound for pound, one of the strongest players in professional hockey and he creates room for his teammates every time he steps on the ice. We need that type of physical presence in Tampa and we look forward to seeing Mitch in camp and determining whether he has continued to elevate his overall game to the NHL level."

simon: not a goon, servicable winger

You serious? What was his role in Quebec/Colorado? Washington? NY Rangers? Calgary? And now with the Islanders (who lost Godard)? He's talented, but an enforcer nonetheless. Or do you want to upgrade him to power forward because he's had a 29 goal season before? Come on now...five.

colton orr: only played 35 games and was waived

And picked up by the NY Rangers, who let go of Jason Strudwick (playing the role) as a result. He never saw the AHL last year. Six.

mccarty: not a goon, good 3rd line winger

Excuse me? If "goon" is synonymous with "enforcer", then McCarty is the epitomy of one. He was one of the featured players in the DVD in fact. Seven.

godard: only played 57 games...but i'll give you him as he is one of the few i'd take on the panthers.

And as a Former Panthers prospect, it was not surprising to see him end up in Calgary (the Panthers of the West). Eight.

fedoruk: proved to be another of the usefull enforcers

Nine.

laraque: useful, although found himself in the pressbox alot in the playoffs(hmm..)

Ten He still managed to find time on the ice for the Finals series, despite Carolina not having a true enforcer, so that was surprising since I didn't expect MacT to dress him for the Finals at all.

gratton: please. ahler and will be back there this year.

Plays the role, but it'll be tough for him to beat out Laraque, unless Gratton becomes more of a pest since he's a fan favorite every where he goes.

brookbank: AHL

Yet, he never played at that level last season. Furthermore, he's going to a Boston team that let go of Dan Lacouture's services (played the role last season) and lost Hal Gill's size. Eleven.

peters: played in 28 games

All in the NHL however. No AHL time. BTW...his new raise and contract includes a "one-way clause" so...twelve.

chris neil: useful winger

An enforcer nonetheless...thirteen.

mcgrattan: good fighter, but found himself in the pressbox towards the end of the year and in the playoffs...(hmmm)

Andrew Peters broke his orbital bone in March. He's also a rookie and Ottawa already had Chris Neil and Zdeno Chara on the roster in case of rough stuff in the playoffs. He's a fan favourite however and got a 2 year contract extension so I'm sure we'll be seeing more of the "courtesy fights" this season...fourteen.

Jody Shelley: good enforcer.

Fifteen.

Boogaard: ok...

Sixteen

Gordie Dwyer: give me a break.

It's only a tryout contract. I rather see Peat in the NHL however.

stephen peat: played more games in the AHL.

He was injured last season and also fell out of favor with his coach in Washington. If Boulerice couldn't crack Carolina's roster, Peat wasn't going to either. However, if Brookbank got ice time in Vancouver (if the rumors are true), then Peat will see ice time there as well. Seventeen.

Janssen: played 25 games in the AHL...only 47 in the NHL...and isn't even really a true enforcer.

Not a true enforcer, but still played the role for the Devils last season and into the playoffs. Grant Marshall (a guy who played the role for Dallas at one point as well) is a better fighter but Janssen's a fan favorite and NJ's top dog right now...eighteen

Grenier: Heading to the Phantoms. 76 games in the AHL; 0 in the NHL. Big-bad Philly is goon-less. hmmmmmmmmm?

Not so fast...I forgot that Philly still has Turner Stevenson. I rather see Grenier since Stevenson's injury prone but Philly will at least be dressing one...nineteen.

Hordichuk: I'd take him back in a second.

Twenty.

Yonkman

What's so funny? Did you catch the number he did on Commodore? He played in 38 NHL games last year and only 6 in the AHL. Nashville lost toughness/grit on D after Eaton, Berry, Witt, and Markov signed elsewhere. Darcy's still the top dog but Yonkman is a big boy who can handle himself and has also played the role. Twenty-one.

Eric Cairns:alright...although i bet he is waived before this upcoming season is done.

They'd likely keep Cairns over Roy in Pittsburgh. Twenty-two

Andre Roy: couldn't even fight most of last season...but i'll give him to you anyway.

He was suspended to start the year and suffered pretty bad injuries (broken orbital bone and fractured hand) last season so it wasn't entirely his fault although I never thought much of his fighting ability. Nonetheless, as a forward, it's much easier for him to get at guy's messing with Crosby than Cairns. Twenty-three.

Scott Parker: didnt play much last year, but i'll give him to you.

Head injuries kept him off the ice last year. He'll be looking to rebound this coming season though. Twenty-four.

Belak: only played 55 games

All in the NHL however; hasn't seen AHL ice since the 99 season. Twenty-five.

Downey: only 42 games and was waived.

Missed some games due to injuries, and he got a contract extension from Montreal for this year...never saw the AHL last year either. Not since 2001/02 in fact. Twenty-six.

Murray: not an enforcer

He doesn't need to be with Downey on the team, but this kid loves to fight...100+ fights at least...even got the better of Darcy Hordichuk in Juniors. Twenty-seven.

Parros: ok...

This is a prime example of a guy assuming a role...he's a heavyweight in size, but not really in fighting ability although he improved as the season progressed. Twenty-eight.

Ivanas:um...?

Loves to fight and will give Parros a run for his roster spot at training camp.

Thornton: very good third liner, not an enforcer.

He played the role in Montreal and even in San Jose when Parker was unavailable...in fact, he was a frequent dance partner for Paul Laus. Always entertaining fights between the two too. Twenty-nine

Low: zero games in the AHL.

I'm sure you meant the NHL, but anyway...he's going to a rebuilding team in Chicago, that just lost Barnaby and Vandenbussche so his chances of coming back just improved. Thirty

so out of your list, you have 13 enforcers that found places with nhl teams. the other are waiver wire fodder that will likely spend more time in the ahl than in the nhl or useful players that can fight.

See above.

our of those 13, only half of them have security in their jobs this season from what i can gather.

Again...count again.

those numbers aren't exactly screaming neccessity to me.

Like you said earlier, let's wait for the season to play out...

and this proves what? that the first group played on better teams than the latter?

Dingman and his Tampa Bay team were better than Florida, who continue to own them?

[Lauser3*]

read my above post...pretty sure a majority are not.

Think again...see above.

it went without saying, considering we are talking about adding an enforcer...

I was talking about adding an enforcer; you were talking about fighting in general in your post.

i watched that game live. he took it, and the preds took it on the scoreboard. i think they (kings) got a 7 minute powerplay out of it.

They actually got a 5 minute power play as Tim Gleason took a 2 minute roughing minor at the same time to offset Darcy's instigator minor penalty. The Predators killed off the King's PP and won the game 4 to 3...all 3 of Los Angeles's goals came on even strength so no one was blaming Darcy for that comeback and the preds definitely didn't take it on the scoreboard as a result of his actions.

Fischer? pleaasseee tell me you didn't name him....shall I bring the KO video out?

So are you saying Joey Kocur doesn't know what he's talking about since he mentioned "Fisch" as a willing fighter and also shows a clip of Fischer fighting Ian Laperriere in the NHL's Tough Guys' DVD? Hmmmmmm?

Shanahan is no different from Bertuzzi.

Actually he is different in the sense that Shanny was a fighter when he first broke into the league and has taken on some of the better known fighters in the game while being a pretty good player. He basically played the role of enforcer for the Wings for all of last season especially after Fisch was down since there wasn't anyone else willing to do it on the team. Of course, at his age...he wasn't going to fight a whole lot but he still had half the fights that the Wings had all season. Bertuzzi never had to do that for an entire season in his career.

McCarty ain't exactly a heavyweight either...not nearly like a Parros.

When it comes to the NHL, unlike boxing, a "heavyweight" has more to do with fighting ability than size. Laus wasn't a heavyweight in size (like McCarty) but he was when it came to fighting ability. Same can be said for Domi. Parros, on the otherhand, is a heavyweight in size but not necessarily in fighting ability although a willing combatant. He's a college kid (Ivy League in fact) who took it upon himself to assume the role for Los Angeles. Avery definitely wasn't going to do it.

and considering most of these guys are hanging onto their jobs by a string, the last thing they will do is fall out of favor with their coach by taking the instigator unless it is ordered to them.

In the spur of the moment anything can happen...Bertuzzi wasn't told to go fight Moore or to suckerpunch him by his coach...McSorley wasn't told to go club Brashear...Darcy wasn't told to jump Avery...Hextall didn't go after Chelios because his coach told him...etc...etc..

it's a message board, you post, we respond. simple, really.

You choose to respond though...you don't have to. Not everybody posts around here...some just come to read. So don't complain later if you're going to continue contributing to the discussion you claim is taking away from the thread and is impolite to other posters. Pretty simple as well right?

if you really want to discuss it, start a thread...is it really that hard?

If you don't want to discuss this here, then stop responding...or is that too hard?

[ratmanfu]

Since a handful of you are perpetuating this topic, I went ahead and moved the posts to this new thread.

Not because I don't want you to discuss the topic, but because posters that skim through our threads and select by topic only might end up missing this debate. Or just get frustrated that little has been added to the original Nederost/Shvidki thread this subject took over.

----------

In any case, I'm not opposed to adding an enforcer, but what's left out there that is worth going after? And who gets bumped off the roster to make the room for that player?

I don't like the idea of other teams adding hired muscle, while we stand pat.

[Laus723]

I always love how people say fighting doesn't belong in the game, it ruins the sport, and (my favorite) the fans don't like fighting. I realize that not all of you feel this way, but I can't understand how anyone does. I greatly enjoy watching 2 guys go at it, and they do in every sport, only difference is that hockey has guys who are often times designated for it and they don't get suspensions. Every hockey fight has almost every fan on their feet cheerin it on, not the opposite.

I'd rather have a guy like Laus here, who was part of the '96 run, was incredible to the fans, a great team leader/protector, and understood his role than a guy like Bure who scored great flashy goals, but was inconsiderate towards his teammates, wasn't fan friendly, didn't bring the team anywhere, and was just overly selfish. However, I'd take an Elias, Forsberg, Jokinen, or Staal over Laus.

Personally, I wish Hordy was still here (of course Laus) or someone like Hordy who contributes to the team in more ways than one. I didn't like Worrell, but I like Boogard, a lot. I think there's still a need for them in the game, I don't think they're going anyhere, but I do think they'll be improving what they can do on the ice.

[Acadmus]

We don't need an enforcer, we have Bertuzzi. Opposing teams will behave because they'll know that if they don't, Bertuzzi will come up behind them and kill them

[ratmanfu]

The fighting doesn't seem as prevalent as in the old NHL, but it's still there. Enforcers have evolved into something like an insurance policy, as opposed to a fixed need.

Until the opposition stops hiring the muscle, every team should consider the implications of not having a dedicated fighter.


At least the Panthers got tougher this offseason, but I agree that I wouldn't want our top guys in the box serving fighting majors. It does us no good.

[ratmanfu]

Originally Posted by EnoughExcuses

We don't need an enforcer, we have Bertuzzi. Opposing teams will behave because they'll know that if they don't, Bertuzzi will come up behind them and kill them

I know there's a hint of sarcasm there, but reading several accounts from Canucks fans, Bert scaled down the physicality of his play due to heightened ref scrutiny.

If we are to place the burden of some enforcement duties on his shoulders, we'll be in for a very long season.

If anything, Bert in a Panther uni will only draw more scrutiny and less respect from the refs.

[Acadmus]

Originally Posted by RatmanReturns

If anything, Bert in a Panther uni will only draw more scrutiny and less respect from the refs.

I honestly don't think it's possible to have less than none, which is what the Panthers have had almost since their inception.

And yes, the Bertuzzi comment was said tongue-in-cheek.

[ratmanfu]

Originally Posted by EnoughExcuses

I honestly don't think it's possible to have less than none, which is what the Panthers have had almost since their inception.

And yes, the Bertuzzi comment was said tongue-in-cheek.

Well, imagine Bert getting penalized by the refs while sitting on the bench waiting for his shift. Some phantom roughing call, because he gave a stern look to an opposing skater while they passed the Panther bench.

Then a less-than-none scenario is possible.

[Acadmus]

Originally Posted by RatmanReturns

Well, imagine Bert getting penalized by the refs while sitting on the bench waiting for his shift. Some phantom roughing call, because he gave a stern look to an opposing skater while they passed the Panther bench.

Then a less-than-none scenario is possible.

No, I'm pretty sure the Panthers have had penalties to players on the bench just on a ref's whim - I recall it happening a couple times somewhere...maybe the VT Catamounts - they never get respect either

[RedHotChiliPanthers]

I love how I ended up creating a thread while I was sleeping .

[RedHotChiliPanthers]

Originally Posted by PantherBlood6

would you care to share how many of those afformentioned, "goons" spent time in the AHL?

if they were so important, why they would spend time in the ahl?

lets go over your list, shall we?

brashear: ok...
eric boulton: only played 51 games....but decent enough for a goon i suppose.
sutton: not an enforcer, servicable defensman that can fight.
boulerice: consistent healthy scratch, only played 30-some games and spent time in the ahl
luke richardson: far from being an enforcer
fritz: give me a break
simon: not a goon, servicable winger
colton orr: only played 35 games and was waived
mccarty: not a goon, good 3rd line winger
godard: only played 57 games...but i'll give you him as he is one of the few i'd take on the panthers.
fedoruk: proved to be another of the usefull enforcers
laraque: useful, although found himself in the pressbox alot in the playoffs(hmm..)
gratton: please. ahler and will be back there this year.
brookbank: AHL
peters: played in 28 games
chris neil: useful winger
mcgrattan: good fighter, but found himself in the pressbox towards the end of the year and in the playoffs...(hmmm)
Jody Shelley: good enforcer.
Boogaard: ok...
Gordie Dwyer: give me a break.
stephen peat: played more games in the AHL.
Janssen: played 25 games in the AHL...only 47 in the NHL...and isn't even really a true enforcer.
Grenier: Heading to the Phantoms. 76 games in the AHL; 0 in the NHL. Big-bad Philly is goon-less. hmmmmmmmmm?
Hordichuk: I'd take him back in a second.
Yonkman
Eric Cairns:alright...although i bet he is waived before this upcoming season is done.
Andre Roy: couldn't even fight most of last season...but i'll give him to you anyway.
Scott Parker: didnt play much last year, but i'll give him to you.
Belak: only played 55 games
Downey: only 42 games and was waived.
Murray: not an enforcer
Parros: ok...
Ivanis:um...?
Thornton: very good third liner, not an enforcer.
Low: zero games in the AHL.

so out of your list, you have 13 enforcers that found places with nhl teams. the other are waiver wire fodder that will likely spend more time in the ahl than in the nhl or useful players that can fight.

our of those 13, only half of them have security in their jobs this season from what i can gather.

those numbers aren't exactly screaming neccessity to me.







and this proves what? that the first group played on better teams than the latter?

Thanks PantherBlood, pretty much where I was going with my reply to Lauser. Now, I don't have to take too much of my time going over that list .

[PantherBlood6*]

Originally Posted by Lauser3

See, not all those guys above are "true" enforcers...but they're willing fighters and/or have played the role at some point in their careers.

aka: you listed players who don't belong to help your cause.

Ever hear of conditioning stints? Development time? Or already a guy like you on our team right now?

ever hear of excuses?

the whole point of my list is to show you how "important" these players on today. i already said if we could have a guy that can fight and play the game (such as thornton, simon, mccarty, etc.) i would be all for it. they are not enforcers, they are good hockey players that can fight.

the rest, only the 13 i named played significant (enough) roles last year on their nhl teams. 13 out of 30. out of those 13, only a handful figure to have any sort of job security this season.

If having such a player were so important, would half of the guys listed be passing thru waivers and/or spending more time in the AHL/pressbox than on the ice? How do you explain that? Wouldn't they be dressing every game?

Like I said before, I wouldn't mind us seeing add someone that can fight...but if we don't, it won't really matter in the end.

[PantherBlood6*]

Originally Posted by Lauser3

Think again...see above.

I was talking about adding an enforcer; you were talking about fighting in general in your post.

no, i wasn't. the iginla/beacheimen thing is completely irrelevant anyway. the reason why that "turned the series" is because calagary's best player was the one getting his *** handed to him.

had it been fedoruk vs. simon the importance wouldn't have been nearly the same.

They actually got a 5 minute power play as Tim Gleason took a 2 minute roughing minor at the same time to offset Darcy's instigator minor penalty. The Predators killed off the King's PP and won the game 4 to 3...all 3 of Los Angeles's goals came on even strength so no one was blaming Darcy for that comeback and the preds definitely didn't take it on the scoreboard as a result of his actions.

thats nice...still doesn't change the fact that they were still shorthanded for five minutes.

So are you saying Joey Kocur doesn't know what he's talking about since he mentioned "Fisch" as a willing fighter and also shows a clip of Fischer fighting Ian Laperriere in the NHL's Tough Guys' DVD? Hmmmmmm?

he may be a willing fighter, but he is a terrible fighter and belongs no where near this discussion.

don't even try justifying his inclusion.

Actually he is different in the sense that Shanny was a fighter when he first broke into the league and has taken on some of the better known fighters in the game while being a pretty good player. He basically played the role of enforcer for the Wings for all of last season especially after Fisch was down since there wasn't anyone else willing to do it on the team. Of course, at his age...he wasn't going to fight a whole lot but he still had half the fights that the Wings had all season. Bertuzzi never had to do that for an entire season in his career.

What Shanny did when he first broke into the league is, again, completely irrelevant to this discussion. The last three years he's only had three fighting majors. Bertuzzi had two. Both play a similar game.

Not much difference.

In the spur of the moment anything can happen...Bertuzzi wasn't told to go fight Moore or to suckerpunch him by his coach...McSorley wasn't told to go club Brashear...Darcy wasn't told to jump Avery...Hextall didn't go after Chelios because his coach told him...etc...etc..

...this is the exception and not the rule.

You choose to respond though...you don't have to. Not everybody posts around here...some just come to read. So don't complain later if you're going to continue contributing to the discussion you claim is taking away from the thread and is impolite to other posters. Pretty simple as well right?

no, it isn't. this is a message board. you post, we respond.

one of the rules of the message board: stay on topic

capish?

If you don't want to discuss this here, then stop responding...or is that too hard?

considering we have this shiny new thread......

[J17 Vs Proclamation]

The majority of enforcers Lauser listed cannot play ice hockey. Some of them don't even enforce and rarely fight. How many times do you hear fans complain about Big George or Brashaer or the majority of their enforcers. Of the names you listed, many were waived alot, traded for basically nothing (Indicates their worth), played a few games here or there, were scratched during the playoffs and only a few played the entire season.


Lauser, if you can name me 5 enforcers who are capable of playing decent hockey, are not scratched during the post season and can get a few goals here and then, you are indeed brilliant.

[Lauser3*]

aka: you listed players who don't belong to help your cause.

No, the only one that doesn't classify as an "enforcer" on that list is Sutton. Everyone else has played the role at some point or another. You consider Parros to be an enforcer (which he was last season...as were Commodore and Montador), but he's not really a "true" enforcer or "heavyweight" despite his size. However, in the "new" NHL, he's an enforcer and is fair game in this discussion.

ever hear of excuses?

Yeah, I hear them all the time with regards to Bouwmeester, Luongo, and the Panthers...your point?

the whole point of my list is to show you how "important" these players on today. i already said if we could have a guy that can fight and play the game (such as thornton, simon, mccarty, etc.) i would be all for it. they are not enforcers, they are good hockey players that can fight.

Again, it's clear you're not very familiar with the history of these players. McCarty is an enforcer, he just happens to play better than most. Same for Chris Simon. Thornton is not a "true" enforcer but he's played the role before and has fought some heavy hitters in his day. Shanahan is a good hockey player that can fight...and fought quite a lot when he was younger. Mellanby is a good hockey player that can fight. Iginla is a good hockey player that can fight. Ditto for Bertuzzi, Lecavalier, and Joe Thornton. McCarty, Neil and Simon are all enforcers, who happen to be pretty good players as well. Next you're going to tell me that Bob Probert wasn't an enforcer but a good hockey player then since he made the All-Star team?

the rest, only the 13 i named played significant (enough) roles last year on their nhl teams. 13 out of 30. out of those 13, only a handful figure to have any sort of job security this season.

That's relative. As numerous players (Joe Thornton, Primeau, Doan, Guerin, Boynton, Tkachuk, Iginla, Robitaille, Shanahan, etc...) explained on the DVD...enforcers don't have to play a lot in order to be effective at what they do and "important" to their hockey teams. I'll take the players' word over yours. Sorry.

If having such a player were so important, would half of the guys listed be passing thru waivers and/or spending more time in the AHL/pressbox than on the ice? How do you explain that? Wouldn't they be dressing every game?

Again...you didn't take into account injuries and the dynamics of their teams at the time. There's no point in dressing a Brookbank/Laraque to play against Carolina every game either...since Bertuzzi/Smith and some others were tough enough to handle the Canes if the going got rough. Is there a possibility for them to have a bigger effect? Well, Shelley's presence made a difference when Columbus played the Panthers after trading away Cairns. Ryno definitely noticed him.

Like I said before, I wouldn't mind us seeing add someone that can fight...but if we don't, it won't really matter in the end.

So who do you want to see get his *** kicked this season if Auld gets run by some of the guys listed above...Montador? Campbell? Bertuzzi? Gratton? Stewart? Allen? Or better yet, who do you want to see get hurt come playoff time (when it gets much rougher down the stretch)...Jokinen? Horton? Bouwmeester?

[Lauser3*]

no, i wasn't. the iginla/beacheimen thing is completely irrelevant anyway. the reason why that "turned the series" is because calagary's best player was the one getting his *** handed to him.

had it been fedoruk vs. simon the importance wouldn't have been nearly the same.

Speaking of excuses....

thats nice...still doesn't change the fact that they were still shorthanded for five minutes.

Yes, but there were no goals allowed. Nothing bad really came of in the end because bottom line, Nashville still one the game and Avery took a beating in an embarrassing fashion.

he may be a willing fighter, but he is a terrible fighter and belongs no where near this discussion.

So, you're saying you know more than Joe Kocur about who is and who isn't a fighter for their respective team? Look, you don't have to be a good fighter...you just have to be willing to show up. It doesn't matter if you win, lose, or draw in a fight...to these guys you earned their respect just by dropping the mitts.

don't even try justifying his inclusion.

I don't have to...Joe Kocur justified it for me. You do know about Joey Kocur right or is he another "good hockey player that can fight" as well?

What Shanny did when he first broke into the league is, again, completely irrelevant to this discussion. The last three years he's only had three fighting majors. Bertuzzi had two. Both play a similar game.

Not much difference.

Shanny's on his last legs unfortunately but still A LOT tougher than Bertuzzi. They are both power forwards, but when it comes to elite and prime years, Bertuzzi can't tough Shanny's career. When a guy gets into his mid 30s, they tend to decrease their fighting...especially if they were fighters/enforcers. Why? Because they've paid their dues, have the respect of their teammates, and (usually) there are guys in their system willing to step in for them. Shanny didn't have that in Detroit and had to do the fighting for them but when he was around Bert's age, he fought a lot more than Bert while still putting up decent numbers. Bertuzzi had Brashear, Odjick, and Brookbank in Vancouver to do the fighting for him...Bert's more at Lindros's level when it comes to the fighting, though Eric was a bit more willing. Gary Roberts is another guy who has changed his style considerably due to his age...sure he still hits and fought a couple times last season, but he's still nothing like he was back in the day.

...this is the exception and not the rule.

No, the exception would be the coach telling his player to go out there actually...the rule is letting the enforcers do their job. A lot of the guys that played the role have complained about coaches/gms/owners telling them how to do their jobs before so it rarely happens.

no, it isn't. this is a message board. you post, we respond.

one of the rules of the message board: stay on topic

capish?

Again...not your call, unless your handle is RR or Heimy.

considering we have this shiny new thread......:biglaugh

Considering I wasn't credited with starting despite being accused of hijacking it....

[PantherBlood6*]

Originally Posted by Lauser3

No, the only one that doesn't classify as an "enforcer" on that list is Sutton. Everyone else has played the role at some point or another. You consider Parros to be an enforcer (which he was last season...as were Commodore and Montador), but he's not really a "true" enforcer or "heavyweight" despite his size. However, in the "new" NHL, he's an enforcer and is fair game in this discussion.

i swear i've seen more progress with a wall....

Again, it's clear you're not very familiar with the history of these players. McCarty is an enforcer, he just happens to play better than most. Same for Chris Simon. Thornton is not a "true" enforcer but he's played the role before and has fought some heavy hitters in his day. Shanahan is a good hockey player that can fight...and fought quite a lot when he was younger. Mellanby is a good hockey player that can fight. Iginla is a good hockey player that can fight. Ditto for Bertuzzi, Lecavalier, and Joe Thornton. McCarty, Neil and Simon are all enforcers, who happen to be pretty good players as well. Next you're going to tell me that Bob Probert wasn't an enforcer but a good hockey player then since he made the All-Star team?

enforcers who are good players or good players that can fight. doesn't matter what you classify them as. they can play the game itself, and are useful players aside from dropping the mits.

got it?

That's relative. As numerous players (Joe Thornton, Primeau, Doan, Guerin, Boynton, Tkachuk, Iginla, Robitaille, Shanahan, etc...) explained on the DVD...enforcers don't have to play a lot in order to be effective at what they do and "important" to their hockey teams. I'll take the players' word over yours. Sorry.

I find it hysterical your only reference is a DVD.

what do you expect them to say? "these guys are no better than the two guys duking it out on the corner of 8th street?

Again...you didn't take into account injuries and the dynamics of their teams at the time. There's no point in dressing a Brookbank/Laraque to play against Carolina every game either...since Bertuzzi/Smith and some others were tough enough to handle the Canes if the going got rough. Is there a possibility for them to have a bigger effect? Well, Shelley's presence made a difference when Columbus played the Panthers after trading away Cairns. Ryno definitely noticed him.

nice save, gretzky.

answer the question, don't twist your way around it.

So who do you want to see get his *** kicked this season if Auld gets run by some of the guys listed above...Montador? Campbell? Bertuzzi? Gratton? Stewart? Allen? Or better yet, who do you want to see get hurt come playoff time (when it gets much rougher down the stretch)...Jokinen? Horton? Bouwmeester?

No one - considering 90% of the "enforcers" will be sitting in the stands come playoff time.

[PantherBlood6*]

Originally Posted by Lauser3

Speaking of excuses....

ignoring the facts.. again.

Yes, but there were no goals allowed. Nothing bad really came of in the end because bottom line, Nashville still one the game and Avery took a beating in an embarrassing fashion.

your whole "playing dumb" routine is ridiculous.

point: he took a five minute major. i think avery will take that every time.

So, you're saying you know more than Joe Kocur about who is and who isn't a fighter for their respective team? Look, you don't have to be a good fighter...you just have to be willing to show up. It doesn't matter if you win, lose, or draw in a fight...to these guys you earned their respect just by dropping the mitts.

ok...

Gratton is willing. Allen is wlling. Bertuzzi is willing. Montador is willing.

contradict yourself much?

I don't have to...Joe Kocur justified it for me. You do know about Joey Kocur right or is he another "good hockey player that can fight" as well?

another reference to the all-truth telling dvd......

Shanny's on his last legs unfortunately but still A LOT tougher than Bertuzzi. They are both power forwards, but when it comes to elite and prime years, Bertuzzi can't tough Shanny's career. When a guy gets into his mid 30s, they tend to decrease their fighting...especially if they were fighters/enforcers. Why? Because they've paid their dues, have the respect of their teammates, and (usually) there are guys in their system willing to step in for them. Shanny didn't have that in Detroit and had to do the fighting for them but when he was around Bert's age, he fought a lot more than Bert while still putting up decent numbers. Bertuzzi had Brashear, Odjick, and Brookbank in Vancouver to do the fighting for him...Bert's more at Lindros's level when it comes to the fighting, though Eric was a bit more willing. Gary Roberts is another guy who has changed his style considerably due to his age...sure he still hits and fought a couple times last season, but he's still nothing like he was back in the day.

Again, what Shanahan did in his prime is completely irrelevant considering we were talking about Avery, who was only there since 01-02.

No, the exception would be the coach telling his player to go out there actually...the rule is letting the enforcers do their job. A lot of the guys that played the role have complained about coaches/gms/owners telling them how to do their jobs before so it rarely happens.

Agreed that it is rare for a coach to tell a player to do such a thing. The rule is to not take the instigator in the first place.

Again...not your call, unless your handle is RR or Heimy.



Considering I wasn't credited with starting despite being accused of hijacking it....

we got a new thread, regardless of whos name created it.

[Lauser3*]

The majority of enforcers Lauser listed cannot play ice hockey. Some of them don't even enforce and rarely fight. How many times do you hear fans complain about Big George or Brashaer or the majority of their enforcers. Of the names you listed, many were waived alot, traded for basically nothing (Indicates their worth), played a few games here or there, were scratched during the playoffs and only a few played the entire season.

Yet, they're playing in the NHL and you're playing where exactly, Gretzky?

Enforcers don't have to fight a lot to be effective...they just have to be around. They can be on the bench and that's enough to scare other guys. Tony Twist is a prime example...guys were scared to fight him and games against St. Louis were usually clean ones because he was there. Twist didn't have many takers and Paul Laus even turtled during his fight with Twist. Twister put a dent in Paul's helmet as well. The complaints about Brashear have always been his fighting style and his attitude. Same with Georges, who actually doesn't like fighting (as he's said publicly many times) but does it because he has to. These guys don't want to be known just as fighters...most of them would tell you they rather score 20 goals than fight 20 times. But reality is another story of course.

Lauser, if you can name me 5 enforcers who are capable of playing decent hockey, are not scratched during the post season and can get a few goals here and then, you are indeed brilliant.

Easy...

Georges Laraque...43 goals in the regular season and 3 goals in the playoffs.
Donald Brashear...75 goals in the regular season and 2 goals in the playoffs.
Chris Neil...40 goals in the regular season and 2 goals in the playoffs.
Chris Simon...133 goals in the regular season and 10 goals in the playoffs.
Darren McCarty...126 goals in the regular season and 22 goals in the playoffs.

[Lauser3*]

i swear i've seen more progress with a wall....

Does the wall actually respond?

enforcers who are good players or good players that can fight. doesn't matter what you classify them as. they can play the game itself, and are useful players aside from dropping the mits.

got it?

They are still enforcers....do you get it now?

I find it hysterical your only reference is a DVD.

I've actually have several reading materials and interviews, as well as personal conversations that I could give you if you want? I find it funny that you're saying I'm avoiding your questions and you've yet to answer mine.

what do you expect them to say? "these guys are no better than the two guys duking it out on the corner of 8th street?

Yeah, that's it.

nice save, gretzky.

When did Gretzky play goal?

answer the question, don't twist your way around it.

Not twisting anything...I can't help it if you don't like my response. That's your problem; not mine.

No one - considering 90% of the "enforcers" will be sitting in the stands come playoff time.

Uh-huh.

[J17 Vs Proclamation]

Originally Posted by Lauser3

Yet, they're playing in the NHL and you're playing where exactly, Gretzky?

Enforcers don't have to fight a lot to be effective...they just have to be around. They can be on the bench and that's enough to scare other guys. Tony Twist is a prime example...guys were scared to fight him and games against St. Louis were usually clean ones because he was there. Twist didn't have many takers and Paul Laus even turtled during his fight with Twist. Twister put a dent in Paul's helmet as well. The complaints about Brashear have always been his fighting style and his attitude. Same with Georges, who actually doesn't like fighting (as he's said publicly many times) but does it because he has to. These guys don't want to be known just as fighters...most of them would tell you they rather score 20 goals than fight 20 times. But reality is another story of course.



Easy...

Georges Laraque...43 goals in the regular season and 3 goals in the playoffs.
Donald Brashear...75 goals in the regular season and 2 goals in the playoffs.
Chris Neil...40 goals in the regular season and 2 goals in the playoffs.
Chris Simon...133 goals in the regular season and 10 goals in the playoffs.
Darren McCarty...126 goals in the regular season and 22 goals in the playoffs.

Donald Brashear is not a good hockey player. Simon and McCarty are not enforcers. Nor is Neil really. Laraque is a good enforcer, and good enough a hockey player for 4th line minutes, however Oiler fans wern't exactly loving him.
Most of the guys you listed, barely play in the NHL. Most will end up in the AHL, ECHL. Again, if they were so valuable and talented, why were many traded, Waived etc. It's because they aren't very useful. A guy like Darcy Hordichuk is a good enforcer who cna play, but that is very rare.

[Acadmus]

Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation

Donald Brashear is not a good hockey player. Simon and McCarty are not enforcers. Nor is Neil really. Laraque is a good enforcer, and good enough a hockey player for 4th line minutes, however Oiler fans wern't exactly loving him.
Most of the guys you listed, barely play in the NHL. Most will end up in the AHL, ECHL. Again, if they were so valuable and talented, why were many traded, Waived etc. It's because they aren't very useful. A guy like Darcy Hordichuk is a good enforcer who cna play, but that is very rare.

I don't really want to stick my neck out in this thread, but just have to say:
Chris Simon - enforcer (just happened to develop a scoring touch later)
Darren McCarty - not enforcer (learned how to fight only because he got the crap beaten out of him in a game years ago - he's a winger who will fight, like the Panthers of old)
Darcy Hordichuk - not really a good player

Brashear was not too bad a player in his heyday. Neil really is more of an enforcer. And Laraque at least was about the best enforcer in the league in terms of playing ability. Don't know about last season, though - seems he wasn't wanted at least by fans.

[PantherBlood6*]

They are still enforcers....do you get it now?

I've actually have several reading materials and interviews, as well as personal conversations that I could give you if you want? I find it funny that you're saying I'm avoiding your questions and you've yet to answer mine.

i've answered you too many times already...

When did Gretzky play goal?

it's a cliche used by the hockey-ignorant.

Not twisting anything...I can't help it if you don't like my response. That's your problem; not mine.

[Lauser3*]

ignoring the facts.. again.

Yeah, that's it...afterall, you believe McCarty and Simon aren't enforcers and that you know more about fighting than Joe Kocur. I forgot.

your whole "playing dumb" routine is ridiculous.

Playing dumb ...why, because your scenario backfired?

point: he took a five minute major. i think avery will take that every time.

Yes, so the best way for our players to play is for them to goad other players into penalties by challenging them to fights or turtling when the fight gets started. Brilliant...you should be a coach on that advice alone.

ok...

Gratton is willing. Allen is wlling. Bertuzzi is willing. Montador is willing.

contradict yourself much?

Gratton doesn't scare anyone. Neither does Allen. Or Montador. Bertuzzi may scare smaller forwards but none of the enforcers in the league. Do you have a problem with comprehension?

another reference to the all-truth telling dvd......

Fresh in my mind...what's your source again or is it the ever infallible opinion again?

Again, what Shanahan did in his prime is completely irrelevant considering we were talking about Avery, who was only there since 01-02.

And you say I avoid and twist the truth around? It's the pot calling the kettle black with you.

Agreed that it is rare for a coach to tell a player to do such a thing. The rule is to not take the instigator in the first place.

So was Darcy benched? Nope.

we got a new thread, regardless of whos name created it.

What did Clash always say to you...revisionist theory?