for all the talk about Leetch improving the PP...does anyone actually remember how the PP ran last year? Everything goes through Jagr, not through a pointman. QUOTE]
True enough, but if teams figure out a way to defend it, which some do (The PP was downright pathetic at times), and/or Jagr goes out for even a little bit of time, you need another option and/or mode of attack...with or without a Leetch..
Well, there's also Shanny this year...
but seriously, even if it is predictable and teams are stopping Jagr...it's still going to run through Jagr! We saw that happen last year.
The Rangers PP was pretty good last season. But there were times that it was dangerously predictable. Jagr runs it fine, but can only benefit by having a guy like Leetch on the back end. He brings a creativity to the PP that I felt was sorely lacking last year.
Having said that, unless they trade someone, I want no part of him. Not sure that I'd advocate it either.
The only problem is that Leetch needs to be involved in the pp to be effective. To me even adding him seems like one too many cooks in the kitchen and not enough guys to actually eat what they cook.
Jagr and Leetch both operate in the same way, they set-up the pp. Leetch even in his prime was not going to boom a shot from the point. To me it's almost like having too many similar players at a forward position on a line.
Just like having too many net crashes and not enough playmakers can be detrimental, having too many playmakers and not enough finishers can have the same effect.
The Rangers problem last year was not the ability to pass, but rather to put the puck in the net. With guys like Jagr, Straka, Nylander, there are already guys to make the passes and provide the vision. The real problem was guys to finish it off which the Rangers now have with Shanahan and Prucha.
I don't think Leetch brings that,but rather would just throw another guy who'd need to set up the play to be successful and the Rangers are already overflowing with that attribute.
for all the talk about Leetch improving the PP...does anyone actually remember how the PP ran last year? Everything goes through Jagr, not through a pointman. QUOTE]
True enough, but if teams figure out a way to defend it, which some do (The PP was downright pathetic at times), and/or Jagr goes out for even a little bit of time, you need another option and/or mode of attack...with or without a Leetch..
Whatsmore, if the Rangers are going to have Jagr and Shanahan at each circle (and that is a very nice idea) you need someone else to get them the puck — especially from the point.
Whatsmore, if the Rangers are going to have Jagr and Shanahan at each circle (and that is a very nice idea) you need someone else to get them the puck — especially from the point.
except that's not how it worked last year
last year it was Jagr and Prucha at the circles, and the PP still ran through Jagr.
We basically just have to accept that while he's here, Jagr is the Rangers PP QB. Like Edge said, a defenseman who can really shoot the puck would be more useful than a QB like Leetch at this point.
Edge, a defenseman's worth on the PP isn't determined by stats alone. That's one measure, sure.... but not everything.
And as I said below I don't think the Rangers problem was defenseman running the show, Jagr was doing that.
What the Rangers could use from a defenseman on the PP is a booming shot, which they don't have. But Leetch doesn't bring that either.
The problem with the PP was who was going to score a goal if Jagr didn't?
Straka? Nylander? Just wasn't going to happen that often.
This year the Rangers have two legit guys who can do that, Shanahan and Prucha.
But even getting away from the PP for a moment we're still left with a guy who can't do much outside of the PP and whom were hoping hasn't lost as much this summer as he has the past few.
Let's be honest, forgetting the name for a second. If the name on the jersey was a another vet whose one attribute was the PP and who wasn't physical, defensive overly durable, we'd have no interest.
But because it's Leetch, we're willing to accept that.
The Rangers problem last year was not the ability to pass, but rather to put the puck in the net. With guys like Jagr, Straka, Nylander, there are already guys to make the passes and provide the vision. The real problem was guys to finish it off which the Rangers now have with Shanahan and Prucha.
I disagree with this assessment. I think the Rangers problem last year was that they would unerringly give the puck to Jagr and wait to see what he would do, rather than try to make something happen.
If you're a team defending the Rangers first PP unit of Shanahan-Nylander-Jagr-Straka-Roszival, who are you going to focus on defending and making sure plays weren't being setup? That's easy. Based on last season, you defend Jagr and when he passes the puck off, you wait til the other guys on the ice pass it back to him. Shanahan will help matters quite a bit over last year, sure.
On the other hand, if you're now defending Shanahan-Nylander-Jagr-Straka-Leetch, your focus is that much more spread out. Leetch's very presence on the ice changes the entire dynamic of defending the unit. It opens up Jagr to be as much a finisher as a QB, depending on the situation.
And actually, you're wrong about the sentimentality. This is exactly why I was for the high risk/high reward Ozolinsh trade last year (admittedly, I was wrong, but it wasn't the idea that was wrong, but rather the player). This is why I would've liked to have seen Jovonovski on this team, although he brings a more complete package. I wanted him mostly for his offensive ability.
On the other hand, if you're now defending Shanahan-Nylander-Jagr-Straka-Leetch, your focus is that much more spread out. Leetch's very presence on the ice changes the entire dynamic of defending the unit. It opens up Jagr to be as much a finisher as a QB, depending on the situation.
but is Jagr actually going to do that?! again, I keep coming back to this, we've seen that Jagr wants to have control of the puck, even if he's being defended tightly. There's no guarantee he's going to share QBing responsibilities even if he has that option. he doesn't want to just score the goals, he wants to set the play up and if it ends up with him scoring a goal, so be it.
but is Jagr actually going to do that?! again, I keep coming back to this, we've seen that Jagr wants to have control of the puck, even if he's being defended tightly. There's no guarantee he's going to share QBing responsibilities even if he has that option. he doesn't want to just score the goals, he wants to set the play up and if it ends up with him scoring a goal, so be it.
Who said anything about Leetch QBing? There's a differnce between QBing and being a dangerous playmaker capable of making creative choices, something none of the Rangers current dmen have shown themselves as being capable of to date.
I just have to disagree with you Larry (brings back memories).
As I said, not really a huge Roszival or Rachunek fan but to rank them any less than even #4 defenseman is a bit extreme.
They are far from perfect defenseman and they certainly have their problems, but Rachunek has shown that when healthy he was at least capable of 30 some odd points. In the new NHL maybe even around 40.
Roszival warts and all has still shown he can get 30.
Are they elite? Far from it, but Leetch it really at best a 40-50 point defenseman at this point. So to move one of these guys for that point difference just doesn't seem worth it to me, especially that I really don't think Leetch is even as good as them with defense at this point. That doesn't say much really, but we're hoping that Leetch stays healthy and can fire on all Cyliners to get realistic probably 10 or so more points than a guy like Rachunek. And most of the points are going to come on the powerplay only. What about the other 50 some odd minutes of the game?
In order to pull that off you've got to rely on the other 5 defenseman even more and frankly I don't think that'll work. So now in order to limit his weaknesses, you've got to not only keep Brian out of certain situations but now you've got to make ANOTHER deal just to find someone who can cover for him when he's out there AND eat up more minutes because you're working with less defenseman.
That's where a lot of my problem with the move comes from. And for what really?
10 or so extra points? Maybe 15 if everything falls right? The hope that Leetch hasn't fallen even further from where he was last season? At this point every season is taking a very noticeable deduction from Leetch's ability and production, expecting even last year's point pace might be a bit much.
To me those extra points just wouldn't make up for what we'd lose at even strength or how we'd have to compensate the pairings to even get those 10 points.
And all of this is under best case scenarios in which Leetch is even still a 45-50 point defenseman.
Well, you're only kinda disagreeing with me because I would not sign Leetch and am not advocating it in the big picture...However, I do think it would improve this years team and I could see Sather considering it...Maybe I'm just trying to trationalize why somebody might sign him...
I am aware of some of Leetch's current shortcomings and many of your points aren't lost on me....And why I, not Sather, don't' make the move...That being said, I do not like what we have now for the PP..AT ALL...Roszival had 11 PP points....and in his last full season, Rachunbek had 10 for a high octane offense in Ottawa.....In fact (OK, not a fact, but from what I remember), Rachunek was pretty miserable in his last year in the NHL and shouldn't at all be classified in with Roszival who, in general, had a solid season last year....I see Rachunek as nothing more then a 3rd pair D-man right now...ANd if Leetch was signed, he could be the 7th....or even alternating with Leetch and keeping Brian fresh...There would be little change on defense, but Leetch would help the PP alot more, even at 38 or whatever......
last year it was Jagr and Prucha at the circles, and the PP still ran through Jagr.
We basically just have to accept that while he's here, Jagr is the Rangers PP QB. Like Edge said, a defenseman who can really shoot the puck would be more useful than a QB like Leetch at this point.
Well, maybe it should have at time?
Of course Jagr is the big kahuna but A team unwilling to adapt or diversify in the face of poor results is just
If you're a team defending the Rangers first PP unit of Shanahan-Nylander-Jagr-Straka-Roszival, who are you going to focus on defending and making sure plays weren't being setup? That's easy. Based on last season, you defend Jagr and when he passes the puck off, you wait til the other guys on the ice pass it back to him. Shanahan will help matters quite a bit over last year, sure.
On the other hand, if you're now defending Shanahan-Nylander-Jagr-Straka-Leetch, your focus is that much more spread out. Leetch's very presence on the ice changes the entire dynamic of defending the unit. It opens up Jagr to be as much a finisher as a QB, depending on the situation.
I think that might be the part where we disagree. At this point I don't think Leetch draws attention like that with other guys on the ice, I think they do. I think in those scenarios, whoever is playing that role will be a little more free (whether it's Leetch or someone else).
Where I'm in agreement with you is that Leetch would do more with that freedom than say, oh Rachunek or Roszival. Where the problem really comes for me (and I think is part of our disagreement on the subject) is that those extra points won't be as many as some think because Leetch won't actually being QBing the PP.
As such the point he did get, just really doesn't seem enough to compensate for the other factors (even strength, extra pressure on other defenders to cover for him, etc.)
I know we still disagree after I say all that, but does it shed a little more light on my thought process with all this?
i have never seen strickland write anything outrageous so i think this is more of a "no way is leetch coming to st. louis" piece rather than "leetch to new york" what is the most probable scenario is that maybe Leetch's agent has finally contacted Sather. I never doubted any reported for saying there were discussions. 1-sided discussions probably
Sather has to look at it from a hockey standpoint, and it makes no sense to bring Leetch back for a year unless someone is moved, and as of now all we get is rumours and speculation.
I can't talk about Leetch coming back again but I do have one point to make...
The Rangers don't need a QB on the power play. It's by far the most overhyped thing said by Ranger fans and it has no basis at all. The Rangers have QB on the PP and his name is Jagr. The guy runs the power play he calls plays and moves guys around.
You can forget the intriguing idea of the Oilers luring potential Hall-of-Fame defenceman Brian Leetch away from Boston to man Edmonton's blue-line.
"We were kicking some tires there, but it's a dead issue now," confirmed Prendergast. "Brian, from what I understand, wants to stay in the East, where he's played all his career. If he doesn't get a contract with a team out there, I guess maybe he'll retire."
I can't talk about Leetch coming back again but I do have one point to make...
The Rangers don't need a QB on the power play. It's by far the most overhyped thing said by Ranger fans and it has no basis at all. The Rangers have QB on the PP and his name is Jagr. The guy runs the power play he calls plays and moves guys around.
Yes he does...But if the teams smother him or if he gets hurt, both of which are very possible, or even for the 2nd PP unit, it will be good to have alternate mode of attack
Yes he does...But if the teams smother him or if he gets hurt, both of which are very possible, or even for the 2nd PP unit, it will be good to have alternate mode of attack
Hey, Cullen apparently runs the point well on the PP
the other thing to note is that instead of having a guy like Leetch who (in theory) can distribute the puck from the point, and therefor take pressure off of Jagr, having a guy who can shoot the puck from the point may actually take pressure off Jagr because he has someone he can move the puck to and someone the other team has to be aware of.
Having a dangerous point shot can also mean that teams have to cover that guy closer and can't put as much pressure on Jagr, because if they do, he can find a way to get the puck to that player for a scoring opportunity.
Just giving Jagr more options could go a long ways towards keeping other teams from shutting him down. It's a lot easier to shut a guy down when he's holding on to the puck forever because he has no where to send it.
would only be effective if the shooter isn't inclined to pass the puck back to Jagr once it's received. The Rangers' PP is not set-up for those booming shots and rebounds. It's set up for Jagr creating space and either shooting, or passing the puck across for the tip-in, for the most part. While having a PP point is typically necessary, unless the Rangers change the way the PP looks (and they won't), having that quality PP guy isn't all that viable, and perhaps not even necessary.
), Rachunek was pretty miserable in his last year in the NHL and shouldn't at all be classified in with Roszival who, in general, had a solid season last year....I see Rachunek as nothing more then a 3rd pair D-man right now...ANd if Leetch was signed, he could be the 7th....or even alternating with Leetch and keeping Brian fresh...There would be little change on defense, but Leetch would help the PP alot more, even at 38 or whatever......
