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Best team to not win a cup?

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Old
08-24-2006, 10:33 PM
  #51
pappyline
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Originally Posted by ClassicHockey View Post
Since I consider Bobby Hull a personal friend, I feel obligated to set the record straight regarding him and Ferguson.

John Ferguson did NOT break Hull's jaw. In the game in Montreal televised nationally, Ferguson visciously cross-checked Hull as Hull was cutting across the ice. The enraged Hull, bleeding from the stick foul, started raining punches on Ferguson and Hull won a slight decision in the fight. Ferguson had a great reputation but he usually instigated the fights thereby getting a huge advantage in his fights. Ferguson was a good fighter and was feared for his meanness but Ferguson only fought the guys he knew he could beat - oftern fighting the same guys over and over again (Baun, Shack etc.) Not only that, Ferguson often went after non-fighters like Brit Selby. Ferguson stayed away from the real tough customers like Kurtenbach and Horton.
Like McPhee says, those wednesday night games featured brawls between the Leafs and Montreal. One of the most famous was when Orland Kurtenbach destroyed Terry Harper with Ferguson standing around and not going to his teammate's aid. In the films of that game, when Ferguson was being held be Tim Horton, Ferguson was very, very docile.
And on the subject of coaching Team Canada in 1972, what qualifications did Ferguson have to be an assistant coach?Harry Sinden wasn't the brightest selection as coach but picking Ferguson with no coaching experience and with most of Team Canada's players despising him wasn't the best of moves either.

Ferguson's book had quite a bit of fiction in it.
Classic, thank you for setting the record straight.

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08-24-2006, 11:00 PM
  #52
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No problem. When we originally went back to determine how Hull got the broken jaw, it was in a game later that week against Detroit. Montreal did play Chicago a week or so after the first incident and Hull was ready to challenge Ferguson again.

What I remember was Billy Reay being livid that a - 'two-bit player like Ferguson could cross-check one of the NHL's best players that way'

Bobby Hull had a lot of class on the ice.

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Classic, thank you for setting the record straight.

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08-25-2006, 08:57 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClassicHockey View Post
Since I consider Bobby Hull a personal friend, I feel obligated to set the record straight regarding him and Ferguson.

John Ferguson did NOT break Hull's jaw. In the game in Montreal televised nationally, Ferguson visciously cross-checked Hull as Hull was cutting across the ice. The enraged Hull, bleeding from the stick foul, started raining punches on Ferguson and Hull won a slight decision in the fight. Ferguson had a great reputation but he usually instigated the fights thereby getting a huge advantage in his fights. Ferguson was a good fighter and was feared for his meanness but Ferguson only fought the guys he knew he could beat - oftern fighting the same guys over and over again (Baun, Shack etc.) Not only that, Ferguson often went after non-fighters like Brit Selby. Ferguson stayed away from the real tough customers like Kurtenbach and Horton.
Like McPhee says, those wednesday night games featured brawls between the Leafs and Montreal. One of the most famous was when Orland Kurtenbach destroyed Terry Harper with Ferguson standing around and not going to his teammate's aid. In the films of that game, when Ferguson was being held be Tim Horton, Ferguson was very, very docile.
And on the subject of coaching Team Canada in 1972, what qualifications did Ferguson have to be an assistant coach?Harry Sinden wasn't the brightest selection as coach but picking Ferguson with no coaching experience and with most of Team Canada's players despising him wasn't the best of moves either.

Ferguson's book had quite a bit of fiction in it.
Damn you Leaf fan. I remember the Harper/Kurtenbach fight well. I don't have film obviously, but I thought Fergy started the whole thing with Bobby Baun ? Then Larose and Horton got into a bear hug match. I remember Harper just wouldn't quit. Kurtenbach had no interest in continuing the beating, but Harper kept getting up, getting free and going after hum. Harper didn't win many, but he didn't quit or pick his spots. The talk on Ferguson's fighting was, as you say, he instigated, and had usuall landed 4 or 5 before the other guy knew the fight had started.

The cross-check on Hull was detailed in the book. Fergy swore it was a shoulder, swears a ref called the penalty afterwards even though he didn't see it. He went on to say that there had been some stick incidents lately and they wanted to crack down, and he was an innocent victim. Shoulder or cross-check ? I'm not going to argue either way. Maybe he was innocent that time, but he was probably guilty of something else if he was.

He did mention the Billy Reay quote in the book. Classic, I think it'd be a safe assumption that Murray, you and myself may have seen many games in the 60's and came away with different versions. It shows a lot about fan[atacism] doesn't it ? We can talk hockey objectively, but when we get to our teams in their hey day, don't mess with us.

When you listed Feruson's opponenets, Kent Douglas seemed to be in the middle of things too. He was a mean one.

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08-25-2006, 10:01 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I cant believe that no one ever mentioned the '75 Sabres. They tied Philly that year in points with 113. Then lost to them in 6 games. Never made the finals after that but for several years from '73 and on they always seemed to lose to either the Cup winner or the other Cup finalist up until about 1980. Look it up.

They had Perreault, Martin and Robert as the French Connection line, then Danny Gare up front as well. They may not be the best though.

I'd take the 1972 Rangers. By rights at sometime this team should have won a Cup. In three straight years (72-74) they beat the previous years Cup winner in the playoffs. They had four HOFers in Ratelle, Gilbert, Park and Giacomin. Vic Hadfield was at least playing like a HOFer at that time. If Ratelle plays in the 1972 Cup final I think its a close seven game series vs. Boston.
Post #10 actually. But as I said I think the Boston teams were better and thus more deserving of this dubious honor.

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08-25-2006, 10:16 AM
  #55
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1994 Vancouver Canucks. Best damn Finals ever, course I'm biased. Amazing hockey, fantastic rivalry.

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08-25-2006, 10:47 AM
  #56
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Yes, Kent Douglas also fought Ferguson a few times, so did Larry Hillman. Fergie had a lot of 'rematches' mostly and he always initiated the fights. In that memorable brawl we are talking about, Ferguson was after Bob Baun intitially and again after Horton let him go. Kurtenbach told me that after the game, he was hailed as a hero in the dressing room and the talk was now about winning the Stanley Cup because of the fistic victory. Don't mistake that for the intimidation that came later and almost ruined the game but rather standing up for yourself and playing tough hockey. These were all actual hockey players that were fighting and not goons.

I think that yourself, Murray and I (and probably others here) were so emotionally involved with our teams in the 1960's that no young fan of today could possibly understand. The true passion in the game left long ago.

I find that viewing footage of incidents that struck a nerve with us as young fans is an interesting process - because its not always as we think we remember them. A lot of player's recollections are not always accurate either.

Its a good thing that a lot of the footage has survived.

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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
Damn you Leaf fan. I remember the Harper/Kurtenbach fight well. I don't have film obviously, but I thought Fergy started the whole thing with Bobby Baun ? Then Larose and Horton got into a bear hug match. I remember Harper just wouldn't quit. Kurtenbach had no interest in continuing the beating, but Harper kept getting up, getting free and going after hum. Harper didn't win many, but he didn't quit or pick his spots. The talk on Ferguson's fighting was, as you say, he instigated, and had usuall landed 4 or 5 before the other guy knew the fight had started.

The cross-check on Hull was detailed in the book. Fergy swore it was a shoulder, swears a ref called the penalty afterwards even though he didn't see it. He went on to say that there had been some stick incidents lately and they wanted to crack down, and he was an innocent victim. Shoulder or cross-check ? I'm not going to argue either way. Maybe he was innocent that time, but he was probably guilty of something else if he was.

He did mention the Billy Reay quote in the book. Classic, I think it'd be a safe assumption that Murray, you and myself may have seen many games in the 60's and came away with different versions. It shows a lot about fan[atacism] doesn't it ? We can talk hockey objectively, but when we get to our teams in their hey day, don't mess with us.

When you listed Feruson's opponenets, Kent Douglas seemed to be in the middle of things too. He was a mean one.

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Old
08-25-2006, 10:48 AM
  #57
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Is this another way of saying biggest chokers!!!!!
No, grow up

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08-25-2006, 12:00 PM
  #58
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The 93 Penguins who lost to the Isles still don't know how.
The red Wings a few years ago
1990 Bruins

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08-25-2006, 12:02 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClassicHockey View Post
Yes, Kent Douglas also fought Ferguson a few times, so did Larry Hillman. Fergie had a lot of 'rematches' mostly and he always initiated the fights. In that memorable brawl we are talking about, Ferguson was after Bob Baun intitially and again after Horton let him go. Kurtenbach told me that after the game, he was hailed as a hero in the dressing room and the talk was now about winning the Stanley Cup because of the fistic victory. Don't mistake that for the intimidation that came later and almost ruined the game but rather standing up for yourself and playing tough hockey. These were all actual hockey players that were fighting and not goons.

I think that yourself, Murray and I (and probably others here) were so emotionally involved with our teams in the 1960's that no young fan of today could possibly understand. The true passion in the game left long ago.

I find that viewing footage of incidents that struck a nerve with us as young fans is an interesting process - because its not always as we think we remember them. A lot of player's recollections are not always accurate either.

Its a good thing that a lot of the footage has survived.
I remember the anticapation as a kid waiting for the telecast to come on at 8.30. You'd hope there was a delay or fight so that there'd be more of 1st period left when the game came on. If I remeber correctly, you couldn't get local games on the radio to folow the 1st period until 8.30. I believe that when CTV started doing the Wednesday games, that changed.

I'm not sure that the passion changed or that it was just a different time in our lives. Emotions different at 50 than at 12, at least sometimes. I think there is more distraction around the game, with the average 12 year old fan knowing the business aspect of the game. We'd stand in the schoolyard at recess arguig whether Henri Richard was better than Keon, and now it's a moot point because he'll have to be moved when he qualifies for a max. contract. Obviously players are better treated and change was necessary, but the feeling around the game changed.

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Old
08-25-2006, 05:30 PM
  #60
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For sure emotions are different as you get older. But there was something magical as a youngster not only waiting the entire week to see the one televised game, but then waiting in suspense for 8:30 or 9pm to come and guessing what the score would be. Not only that, I can still remember the closings of the previous TV shows that led up to the hockey game. Do you remember any?

I too remember the monday mornings in the schoolyards because all the talk was about the game the previous saturday night. I'm sure Murray remembers the infamous bench clearing brawl game where Murray Balfour chased Carl Brewer around the ice. Did we ever debate that particular game!

I wrote an article for Total Hockey II about watching HNIC as a youngster and I tried to capture the emotions of the time. I can email it to you if you don't have it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
I remember the anticapation as a kid waiting for the telecast to come on at 8.30. You'd hope there was a delay or fight so that there'd be more of 1st period left when the game came on. If I remeber correctly, you couldn't get local games on the radio to folow the 1st period until 8.30. I believe that when CTV started doing the Wednesday games, that changed.

I'm not sure that the passion changed or that it was just a different time in our lives. Emotions different at 50 than at 12, at least sometimes. I think there is more distraction around the game, with the average 12 year old fan knowing the business aspect of the game. We'd stand in the schoolyard at recess arguig whether Henri Richard was better than Keon, and now it's a moot point because he'll have to be moved when he qualifies for a max. contract. Obviously players are better treated and change was necessary, but the feeling around the game changed.

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Old
08-25-2006, 05:50 PM
  #61
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2006 Buffalo Sabres

Call me biased but who the hell was going to stop us if we didn't mess up that 3rd period in Game 7.

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08-25-2006, 08:27 PM
  #62
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I'm surprised no one has said the 1971 Boston Bruins, who had Orr with another 100point season and had 100 assists, Esposito broke the single season record of goals with 76...the most dominant line in the NHL at the time with Espo, Hodge and Cashman with Bucyk playin the second line with 50 goals...the best goaltending tandam that year...NUMBER ONE in the league....lose to the Montreal Candiens in the first round in seven games behind a rookie goaltender..how low can you get?! LOL!

The early New York Rangers of the 1970's (1971-1974) should've won at least one cup, particulary 1972 when they went to the finals but lost to the Bruins. One of the best lines in the League (Ratelle, Gilbert and Hadfield), one of the best dman of the 70's in Brad Park and one of the best goaltending tandums during that time...its a shame they never won..

1975 and 1980 Buffalo Sabres should've won a cup during those years but were beaten to the punch in the playoffs..again, good season but came up short..

No one has mention at least the late 1970's Toronto Maple Leafs..they were good team but again bad managment and a screwed up owner cost them to go anywhere that time...I call this the "Sittler-McDonald-Salming-Turnbull" era since they finish in top four scoring during the mid to late 70's and early 1980's before Mcdonald was traded...

In terms of the 1980s of teams that were good but never won the cup I'll name a few:

-1980,1985,1987 Philidelphia Flyers
-1980,1981,1982,and 1989 Los Angeles Kings
-1982,1985,1986 and 1987 Quebec Nordiques
-1989 Montreal Canadiens
-1983 til 1990 Washington Capitals
-The Chicago Blackhawks of the 1980's
-1981 St.Louis Blues
-1986 Edmonton Oilers
-The late 80's Detroit Red Wings

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08-26-2006, 12:53 AM
  #63
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1924 Senators Cy Denneny, Frank Nighbor, Punch Broadbent, Jack Darragh, Frank Finnigan, King Clancy, George Boucher, Clint Benedict
1926 Senators Cy Denneny, Frank Nighbor, Hooley Smith, Frank Finnigan, King Clancy, George Boucher, Alex Connell
1928 & 1929 Canadiens Howie Morenz, Aurel Joliat, Sylvio Mantha, George Hainsworth
1930 & 1931 Bruins Cooney Weiland, Marty Barry, Harry Oliver, Eddie Shore, Dit Clapper, Tiny Thompson
1934 & 1935 Maple Leafs Charlie Conacher, Joe Primeau, Busher Jackson, Ace Bailey, Nick Metz, King Clancy, Red Horner, Hap Day, George Hainsworth
1938 Bruins Milt Schmidt, Bill Cowley, Woody Dumart, Bobby Bauer, Cooney Weiland, Eddie Shore, Dit Clapper, Flash Hollett, Tiny Thompson
1940 Bruins Milt Schmidt, Bill Cowley, Woody Dumart, Bobby Bauer, Roy Conacher, Herb Cain, Eddie Shore, Dit Clapper, Flash Hollett, Jack Crawford, Frank Brimsek
1945 & 1947 Canadiens Rocket Richard, Elmer Lach, Toe Blake, Buddy O'Connor, Ken Mosdell, Butch Bouchard, Ken Reardon, Bill Durnan
1949 Red Wings Gordie Howe, Ted Lindsay, Sid Abel, Bud Poile, Marty Pavelich, Red Kelly, Jack Stewart, Bill Quackenbush, Leo Reise, Harry Lumley
1951 & 1953 Red Wings Gordie Howe, Ted Lindsay, Sid Abel, Alex Delvecchio, Gaye Stewart, Marty Pavelich, Tony Leswick, Red Kelly, Marcel Pronovost, Bob Goldham, Leo Reise, Terry Sawchuk
1955 Canadiens Rocket Richard, Jean Beliveau, Bernie Geoffrion, Dickie Moore, Bert Olmstead, Ken Mosdell, Ed Litzenberger, Don Marshall, Doug Harvey, Butch Bouchard, Tom Johnson, Jacques Plante
1961 & 1962 Canadiens Jean Beliveau, Dickie Moore, Bernie Geoffrion, Henri Richard, Ralph Backstrom, Don Marshall, Doug Harvey, Tom Johnson, Claude Provost, J.C. Tremblay, Jean-Guy Talbot, Bob Turner, Jacques Plante
1967 Blackhawks Bobby Hull, Phil Esposito, Stan Mikita, Kenny Wharram, Ken Hodge, Doug Mohns, Pierre Pilote, Pat Stapleton, Glenn Hall
1969, 1970, & 1971 Bruins Phil Esposito, John Bucyk, Ken Hodge, Bobby Orr, Gerry Cheevers
1970, 1971, & 1972 Blackhawks Bobby Hull, Stan Mikita, Doug Mohns, Pierre Pilote, Bill White, Pat Stapleton, Tony Esposito
1972 Canadiens Guy Lafleur, Frank Mahovlich, Yvan Cournoyer, Jacques Lemaire, Henri Richard, Jacques Laperriere, Serge Savard, Guy Lapointe, J.C. Tremblay, Ken Dryden
1973 & 1974 Bruins Phil Esposito, John Bucyk, Ken Hodge, Terry O'Reilly, Bobby Orr
1974 & 1975 Canadiens Guy Lafleur, Frank Mahovlich, Yvan Cournoyer, Jacques Lemaire, Henri Richard, Steve Shutt, Bob Gainey, Larry Robinson, Jacques Laperriere, Serge Savard, Guy Lapointe, Ken Dryden
1979 Islanders Bryan Trottier, Mike Bossy, Clark Gillies, John Tonelli, Denis Potvin, Billy Smith
1980 Flyers Bobby Clarke, Reggie Leach, Bill Barber, Brian Propp, Pete Peeters
1980 & 1981 Canadiens Guy Lafleur, Steve Shutt, Bob Gainey, Pierre Larouche, Larry Robinson, Serge Savard, Rod Langway, Guy Lapointe
1982 & 1983 Oilers Wayne Gretzky, Mark Messier, Jari Kurri, Glenn Anderson, Paul Coffey, Kevin Lowe, Grant Fuhr, Andy Moog
1984 Islanders Bryan Trottier, Mike Bossy, Clark Gillies, John Tonelli, Pat LaFontaine, Denis Potvin, Billy Smith
1986 Oilers Wayne Gretzky, Mark Messier, Jari Kurri, Glenn Anderson, Esa Tikkanen, Paul Coffey, Kevin Lowe, Grant Fuhr, Andy Moog
1989 Canadiens Bob Gainey, Mats Naslund, Claude Lemieux, Guy Carbonneau, Stephane Richer, Bobby Smith, Larry Robinson, Chris Chelios, Patrick Roy
1993 Penguins Mario Lemieux, Jaromir Jagr, Kevin Stevens, Ron Francis, Rick Tocchet, Joe Mullen, Larry Murphy, Tom Barrasso
1996 Red Wings Steve Yzerman, Sergei Fedorov, Dino Ciccarelli, Nicklas Lidstrom, Paul Coffey, Slava Fetisov, Vladimir Konstantinov, Mike Vernon, Chris Osgood


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Old
08-26-2006, 02:43 AM
  #64
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Buffalo Sabres of the 70s.

Thank you... thank you very much.

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08-26-2006, 05:29 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClassicHockey View Post
For sure emotions are different as you get older. But there was something magical as a youngster not only waiting the entire week to see the one televised game, but then waiting in suspense for 8:30 or 9pm to come and guessing what the score would be. Not only that, I can still remember the closings of the previous TV shows that led up to the hockey game. Do you remember any?

I too remember the monday mornings in the schoolyards because all the talk was about the game the previous saturday night. I'm sure Murray remembers the infamous bench clearing brawl game where Murray Balfour chased Carl Brewer around the ice. Did we ever debate that particular game!

I wrote an article for Total Hockey II about watching HNIC as a youngster and I tried to capture the emotions of the time. I can email it to you if you don't have it.

I'd like to take a look at that if you don't mind!

jason.karp@gmail.com

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Old
08-26-2006, 09:39 AM
  #66
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I've sent you both articles.

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I'd like to take a look at that if you don't mind!

jason.karp@gmail.com

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08-26-2006, 11:34 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClassicHockey View Post
For sure emotions are different as you get older. But there was something magical as a youngster not only waiting the entire week to see the one televised game, but then waiting in suspense for 8:30 or 9pm to come and guessing what the score would be. Not only that, I can still remember the closings of the previous TV shows that led up to the hockey game. Do you remember any?

I too remember the monday mornings in the schoolyards because all the talk was about the game the previous saturday night. I'm sure Murray remembers the infamous bench clearing brawl game where Murray Balfour chased Carl Brewer around the ice. Did we ever debate that particular game!

I wrote an article for Total Hockey II about watching HNIC as a youngster and I tried to capture the emotions of the time. I can email it to you if you don't have it.
I'd enjoy reading that, thanks. I remember the Balfour/Brewer incident. I remember reading about at least. That really put a mark on Brewer imo. As good as he was, his reputation took a bg hit that night.

Yeah, I agree with your point about seeing 1-2 games a week. Plus, radio was such an integral part of sports then. I suspect that there are a lot of fans on these boards who'll debate a current players worth based on his highlight reel goals on Sports Ctr., rather than his overall play shift after shift. If we didn't see it live, we weren't going to see it.

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08-26-2006, 11:41 AM
  #68
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I can email the article if you send me privately an email address.
I also wrote about the Brewer-Balfour incident for a book.

That incident with Brewer stayed with him as a bad memory right to the end. When the actual televised game was discovered to exist, it was debated whether Brewer would come on TV to talk about it. He did and it was a great show on the Leaf Classics.

A book on Carl Brewer is coming out soon where the incident is talked about by Brewer from his personal notes. There are books on Johnny Bower and Bobby Orr coming out as well.


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I'd enjoy reading that, thanks. I remember the Balfour/Brewer incident. I remember reading about at least. That really put a mark on Brewer imo. As good as he was, his reputation took a bg hit that night.

Yeah, I agree with your point about seeing 1-2 games a week. Plus, radio was such an integral part of sports then. I suspect that there are a lot of fans on these boards who'll debate a current players worth based on his highlight reel goals on Sports Ctr., rather than his overall play shift after shift. If we didn't see it live, we weren't going to see it.

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08-26-2006, 12:33 PM
  #69
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I'm surprised no one has said the 1971 Boston Bruins, who had Orr with another 100point season and had 100 assists, Esposito broke the single season record of goals with 76...the most dominant line in the NHL at the time with Espo, Hodge and Cashman with Bucyk playin the second line with 50 goals...the best goaltending tandam that year...NUMBER ONE in the league....lose to the Montreal Candiens in the first round in seven games behind a rookie goaltender..how low can you get?! LOL!
It gets lower for those Bruins when you remember who originally drafted Dryden and traded him to Montreal for two players who never played in the NHL.

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08-26-2006, 11:13 PM
  #70
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I would say the '81 North Stars ...

They were a well balanced and exceptionally fast team. Dino, Bobby Smith and Steve Payne were young and explosive scorers. Gilles Meloche and Don Beaupre were as good as an tandom in the league and Craig Hartsburg, Brad Maxwell and Gordie Roberts were no push overs on the blueline.

While the Islanders climbed to the finals the North Stars breezed past the best of the rest. (Boston in 3, Buffalo in 4 and Calgary in 5)

They had the misfortune facing a dynasty franchise at the time of its very peak. The North Stars were the best team to have lost to the Islanders in the finals. (Yes that includes the 83 Edmonton team)

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08-26-2006, 11:48 PM
  #71
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The Flyers mid 80s teams(Extremely well balanced team and lost in 7 to the Oilers in 1987...and they had Eklund )

The Sabres in the mid 70s...(They took out the Habs dynasty team before their first of four and that team had all the stars on it already. They lost to the Bullies because of goaltending of Parent for sure...)

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08-27-2006, 01:00 PM
  #72
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Back on topic:

The mid-70's Sabres are a good example. Seemed to have all the parts, but couldn't quite win it all.

The late-70's Bruins were another team that SHOULD have won at least one Cup, but Montreal had their number (and the B's had Don Cherry as a coach-no wonder they couldn't win!).

The modern Senators are not in this category in the least, to me. They are a good team, but not the class of the NHL in any stretch of the imagination. And they haven't even gone deep into the playoffs, let alone made the Final. Same with the Laffs. They are not even a good team at this time. But they are the Leefs (hahahaha), so someone will say they should be included.

The late-60's-early-70's Rangers were pretty good, but were held off by the mighty Orr-led Bruins and the Canadians. They had a lot of firepower in those days, plus good defense and Eddie in the net. But they could not finish the job.

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08-28-2006, 01:00 AM
  #73
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The '93 Pens def. should have won the cup AGAIN that year. But to stick with the guidelines of the thread...hmmmm. I'll say '87 Flyers.

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