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Atlanta-Chicago-NYIslanders 3-way Proposal

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Old
11-15-2003, 11:01 AM
  #26
Voynich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Here is the problem: You posted a bunch of extremely unrealistic deals which absolutely decimate one team, and advantage your team, and the response was predictably quite hostile. Now, it may come down to the Isles making some terrible move for $ reasons, but nobody is going to respond well to a post saying "my team has $ and your team does not - so here are my spare parts for your best assets...".
If that is the way it came off, as a slam, then I'm sorry for that as well. I was just trying to logically think my way through what all three teams needed and make a proposal based on that. As I have admitted, in the first deal I seriously underestimated the value of Parrish, I thought it was going to come down to a Wiemer like situation where something was better than nothing. I was wrong.

There is also no inclination that the Atlanta organization would be willing to pick up that much salary in my "fantasy" 2nd proposal. We don't really have the $ to be throwing around either and it wasn't intended as a slam, merely an idea to help the Islanders slash Payroll, which I thought they have indicated they are trying to do.

However, I think there has been a precedent set in recent years that spare parts for best assets (that carry big price tags) is quite acceptable when salary slashing is the motivation.

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11-15-2003, 11:15 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voynich
If that is the way it came off, as a slam, then I'm sorry for that as well. I was just trying to logically think my way through what all three teams needed and make a proposal based on that. As I have admitted, in the first deal I seriously underestimated the value of Parrish, I thought it was going to come down to a Wiemer like situation where something was better than nothing. I was wrong.

There is also no inclination that the Atlanta organization would be willing to pick up that much salary in my "fantasy" 2nd proposal. We don't really have the $ to be throwing around either and it wasn't intended as a slam, merely an idea to help the Islanders slash Payroll, which I thought they have indicated they are trying to do.

However, I think there has been a precedent set in recent years that spare parts for best assets (that carry big price tags) is quite acceptable when salary slashing is the motivation.

Again, Parrish makes 2.3 million. Chump change by NHL standards, unfortunately. This is not Jagr or Kovalev.

Also, expecting to get a player like Hamrlik for Klemm and a mid-round pick is more than a little out there!

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11-15-2003, 11:26 AM
  #28
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Thoughts: Parrish is not terribly expensive, and unlike Wiemer, is not dispensable. Wiemer was dumped because younger players could do the same job, or better, at a lower price. The Islanders can't replace Parrish's production easily from within, so they need a decent return.

Parrish is worth much more than two fifth rounders. It is likely that if moved, a decent return will be forthcoming.

Hamrlik is interesting as a very valuable player, yet one headed for free agency. Yet even so, the return will be considerable if he is moved at all.

For either or both players, Atlanta would have to offer some of their quality youth. For both, Coburn would have to be involved, and agreed, Atlanta will not let him go.

 
Old
11-15-2003, 11:41 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voynich
I think it is a steep price considering that Hamrlik will be a UFA after the season and we'd be giving up our two best defensive prospects. I realize that acquiring Hamrlik is well out of the reach of the assets we have available and would be willing to move, I'd just love to have him(who wouldn't?).

Would something like this work for Parrish alone?

To Atlanta:
Mark Parrish

To NY Islandes:
Patrik Stefan
3rd round pick or your choice of Safronov/DiPenta/Foster

Or would the 3rd need to be made a 2nd. I doubt our 1st would be involved in a deal for Parrish alone, but I could see us going as high as a 2nd if the 3rd didn't suffice.

Hamrlik will be a rfa this summer and has said he wants an extension asap.



Days before Stefan was drafted,MM ask his agent(Winter?) for his medical records.

Winter refused.Didn't want Stefan going to the isles who wanted to try and trade up for Stefan.

could MM and Winter get along to get a contract done when Stefans due his next one?

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Old
11-15-2003, 12:56 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW
Hamrlik will be a rfa this summer and has said he wants an extension asap.



Days before Stefan was drafted,MM ask his agent(Winter?) for his medical records.

Winter refused.Didn't want Stefan going to the isles who wanted to try and trade up for Stefan.

could MM and Winter get along to get a contract done when Stefans due his next one?

The reason for that was probably because the isles had no money and where going nowhere.

Now that they're a decent organization, I don't think they're going to object to Stefan resigning with the isles if he was dealt here.

I wouldn't be opposed to getting Stefan in exchange for Parrish.....

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Old
11-15-2003, 01:43 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voynich

Then allow me to point you to where I got it from.

Link from NHL.com

.
it's still wrong

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Old
11-15-2003, 02:20 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voynich
I know I've responded to this quote once already but it really gets under my skin. I don't mind the criticism, but I'd prefer for it to be constructive not ridicule. I'm the type of person who doesn't ridicule others, just part of my nature. I usually expect the same respect from others. When I don't get it I tend to react to it adversely, sorry.

I'd prefer in the future if you would refrain from telling me what to do.
Wow, I've never had the same post addressed twice in the same response. Anyways, to respond to what you are saying, the reason I gave you crap is because you did redicule people when you said:

"Sorry to have upset all your little worlds with my intrusion."

Also, I'm pretty sure I didn't tell you what to do, merely a suggestion.

Finally, if you want some input on your trade proposals here it is...

Parrish makes less then 3 million dollars to play as a solid top 6 forward, by market standards that's pretty good. Wiemer while not expensive, is overpaid for the role that he plays and even if he wasn't, as a decent third liner his value wasn't that high anyways. So, when thinking about who Atlanta would need to give up to get Parrish, just think of what it would take Atlanta to trade for Marc Savard, as I think Savard and Parrish have similar values (Savard's value is higher then when he got traded from Calgary because he's not fighting with the coach in Atlanta), also look at team needs, NY, I believe (I'm not an Islander's fan) is looking for offensive top six wingers (something that Parrish is already but whatever), so to interest them Atlanta would probably want to offer one. Unless Atlanta is interested in trading Kovalchuk or Heatley for a big package (which I don't think they are), I just don't see the two teams a good trading partners, although bringing in a third team is a possible way to get around this.

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Old
11-15-2003, 02:32 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IslesFan17
The reason for that was probably because the isles had no money and where going nowhere.

Now that they're a decent organization, I don't think they're going to object to Stefan resigning with the isles if he was dealt here.

I wouldn't be opposed to getting Stefan in exchange for Parrish.....

and the isles, squeezing every nickle together,trading young forward vets so they can make room for cheaper young forwards, is supposed to show that they'd pay Stefan,who's not exactly lived up to his #1 overall draft ranking.

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11-15-2003, 02:54 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
Parrish makes less then 3 million dollars to play as a solid top 6 forward, by market standards that's pretty good. Wiemer while not expensive, is overpaid for the role that he plays and even if he wasn't, as a decent third liner his value wasn't that high anyways. So, when thinking about who Atlanta would need to give up to get Parrish, just think of what it would take Atlanta to trade for Marc Savard, as I think Savard and Parrish have similar values (Savard's value is higher then when he got traded from Calgary because he's not fighting with the coach in Atlanta), also look at team needs, NY, I believe (I'm not an Islander's fan) is looking for offensive top six wingers (something that Parrish is already but whatever), so to interest them Atlanta would probably want to offer one. Unless Atlanta is interested in trading Kovalchuk or Heatley for a big package (which I don't think they are), I just don't see the two teams a good trading partners, although bringing in a third team is a possible way to get around this.
Thank you. That is exactly the kind of feedback I was seeking.

As an aside, half the proposals I see around here are very short and to the point with no reasoning or analysis whatsoever from the person who proposes it. When someone actually takes the time to think something out, wrong as they may be such as myself, I think they deserve better than a page full of thread crapping. Even if a trade is brutal, if someone actually puts the time and effort into trying to contribute something of substance it should be recognized with a lot more than the usual "Ha, Ha" "Brutal" "Worst ever" comments. It may very well be the worst ever proposal to grace the boards, but we as a community should have the maturity to respond to it in a manner that befits the effort the individual poster put into it.

And an apology to you jin. I was out of line with some of my comments and attitude directed towards you.

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Old
11-15-2003, 02:55 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW
and the isles, squeezing every nickle together,trading young forward vets so they can make room for cheaper young forwards, is supposed to show that they'd pay Stefan,who's not exactly lived up to his #1 overall draft ranking.
He's 23 yrs old. So i think you can still call him a young foward.

And when his contract runs out, I don't think he's going to be asking for 4 million a year...

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Old
11-15-2003, 03:40 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voynich
Thank you. That is exactly the kind of feedback I was seeking.

As an aside, half the proposals I see around here are very short and to the point with no reasoning or analysis whatsoever from the person who proposes it. When someone actually takes the time to think something out, wrong as they may be such as myself, I think they deserve better than a page full of thread crapping. Even if a trade is brutal, if someone actually puts the time and effort into trying to contribute something of substance it should be recognized with a lot more than the usual "Ha, Ha" "Brutal" "Worst ever" comments. It may very well be the worst ever proposal to grace the boards, but we as a community should have the maturity to respond to it in a manner that befits the effort the individual poster put into it.

.

How hard is it too look at a trade from both sides?

Yes the isles want to reduce payroll, but they'd also like to end up drawing more then 4,000-5,000 a game after the deal's done.The amount of payroll their beat writers say they are looking to reduce, doesn't require such a brutal deal.

Weimer averages 12 goals a yr and is a 3rd liner,Parrish averages 24 goals a yr on the 2nd line.They don't have the same trade value.

There were teams talking to the isles about aquiring Weimer.Isles were screwed when news broke that they had told Weimer waivers were a possibilty.Why trade for Weimer when he'd be available on waivers?

Your offering 2 fifth rounders for Parrish+ Hamrlik was brutal,was a fantasy proposal.

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Old
11-15-2003, 03:43 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IslesFan17
He's 23 yrs old. So i think you can still call him a young foward.

And when his contract runs out, I don't think he's going to be asking for 4 million a year...

I'm not saying Stefan's not young.

I'm saying if Winters and Stefan didn't want to go to a budget tight nyi team 3-4 yrs ago,why do they want to go to a budget tight nyi team now?

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Old
11-15-2003, 05:48 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW
I'm not saying Stefan's not young.

I'm saying if Winters and Stefan didn't want to go to a budget tight nyi team 3-4 yrs ago,why do they want to go to a budget tight nyi team now?

Because that budget tight team has a payroll more then double the amount they had back then....

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Old
11-15-2003, 05:55 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW
How hard is it too look at a trade from both sides?

Yes the isles want to reduce payroll, but they'd also like to end up drawing more then 4,000-5,000 a game after the deal's done.The amount of payroll their beat writers say they are looking to reduce, doesn't require such a brutal deal.

Weimer averages 12 goals a yr and is a 3rd liner,Parrish averages 24 goals a yr on the 2nd line.They don't have the same trade value.

There were teams talking to the isles about aquiring Weimer.Isles were screwed when news broke that they had told Weimer waivers were a possibilty.Why trade for Weimer when he'd be available on waivers?

Your offering 2 fifth rounders for Parrish+ Hamrlik was brutal,was a fantasy proposal.
How many times do I have to say it. I undervalued Parrish because I was under the assumption that he was the next to go on waivers ala Wiemer.

And go read the initial post again. I never offered two fifth round picks for both Parrish and Hamrlik. I'm getting sick and tired of people who can't even be bothered to read what I wrote before they slam me.

So one more damn time. I thought Parrish was going to be put on waivers like Wiemer. I was wrong. That is why my proposal looks like crap. Sorry.

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Old
11-15-2003, 11:58 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voynich
How many times do I have to say it. I undervalued Parrish because I was under the assumption that he was the next to go on waivers ala Wiemer.

And go read the initial post again. I never offered two fifth round picks for both Parrish and Hamrlik. I'm getting sick and tired of people who can't even be bothered to read what I wrote before they slam me.

So one more damn time. I thought Parrish was going to be put on waivers like Wiemer. I was wrong. That is why my proposal looks like crap. Sorry.

Great font.

You though that Parrish was going to be put on waivers, eh?

So how does that explain your Hamrlik for John Klemm proposal?

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11-16-2003, 02:49 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
So how does that explain your Hamrlik for John Klemm proposal?
That was a flight of fancy that I was just tossing out there. One that I labeled as such. That was not serious, I noted that it was a bad proposal that was a humongous slant in the favor of the Thrashers. It was a wish, a long shot. Something that would make me as a fan jump up and down in glee. Something that would happen in EA Sports 2004, or ESPN NHL Hockey 2004, or EHM. Not something that would happen in real life. That is why I designated it as so. Fantasy. I figure I don't need to explain something I pretty much deemed fantasy material from the start.

The use of the huge font I felt necessary since it appears people are not reading the whole thread, just the initial post and repeatedly criticizing me for what I have already both apologized for and acknowledged I was wrong in.

Here were my misconceptions:

1) The Islanders were is slash and burn mode to get rid of payroll. - I was wrong. - If this assumption had been correct then the Islanders would have been in a position to take less than market value for an asset.

2) Mark Parrish was going to be placed on waivers imminently. - I was wrong. - If this assumption had been correct then I think two 5th rounders would have been preferable to nothing had the guy been lost on waivers.

3) Roman Hamrlik was going to be an UFA after the season and would most likely not resign with the Islanders. - I was wrong. - If his assumption had been correct then I still would have been off with a Klemm + 1st rounder pick for him, but that would have been better than nothing if he walked after his contract. Klemm was there to help with the payroll cutting and Hamrlik because he is your highest payed guy on defense. Aucoin, Jonsson, and Niinimaa all fall in order behind him. I knew better than to ask for Aucoin and know most Islander fans wouldn't want to move the other two either. So with a misconception that Roman would be an UFA who wouldn't resign, coupled with him being the highest payed defenseman, I chose to put him in the deal.

Under the assumptions that I was operating I didn't believe my proposals were nearly as brutal as they actually are since I was sloppy with my homework on the position of the Islanders. I thank those that were kind enough to correct me without resorting to childish behavior, which I have been guilty of in defending myself. In the future I will be sure to be more certain to get a clear definition of the position the other team is in before I propose deals on this board. However, in this case I felt I had, but I was wrong. I admit it. I have done so repeatedly. I don't know what else to say.

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11-16-2003, 03:29 AM
  #42
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NYI Newsday and Daily News 11/16/03 articles:

Scouts flocked to Islanders games this past week - even Atlanta Thrashers GM Don Waddell was in attendance for Thursday's 3-1 win over Montreal at Nassau Coliseum - and the players grew antsy. Mark Parrish, especially, figured he soon would be an ex-Islander, too. He was hearing Atlanta. Chicago and Dallas also inquired. A trade seemed imminent. Pulford then stirred the pot Friday night when he told Chicago reporters he had something in the works with the Islanders.

But before leaving for the trip Friday afternoon, Stirling already had spoken with Milbury about the situation. "We can't have this hanging over the team," he said.

"You're right," Milbury replied.

Stirling hoped to soothe his players' nerves after a week of unrest. He called them together at the morning skate and gave them the good news.

"I wanted it to come to closure and I asked Mike to do that," Stirling said. "We'll get some time to show what the team can do. We have a tough road trip and this will be a good test for us."

In the meantime, it appears the need to decrease the now-$41-million payroll isn't as critical as suggested earlier in the week.

A person with knowledge of the situation said the team didn't expect to shed all of the $1.4 million owed to Wiemer this season. Because that now is Minnesota's responsibility, the source said, "That gives Mike some breathing room right now."

NY Daily News:
Trade winds send Isles off course
Talk of possible deals with the Blackhawks involving Mark Parrish and others were everywhere. The Isles responded by coming out lifeless at the start, coming apart at the seams in the middle and coming back together far too late in an ugly 4-3 loss to the Predators.



Coach Steve Stirling had initiated a meeting with GM Mike Milbury and owner Charles Wang before the Isles (8-6-2-0 overall and 1-4-2-0 on road) left Friday for this four-game road trip - to discuss how salary-dumping trade rumors were hurting the team.

QUOTE
HAWKEYES: Waiving Jason Wiemer ($1.6 million) wasn't the end of the Isles' payroll-pruning. Chicago-area reports suggest the Blackhawks are willing to take one or more contracts off Milbury's hands. GM Bob Pulford reportedly remains interested in Parrish ($2.35 million) and Eric Cairns ($900,000) - as well as blueliners Hamrlik ($3.6 million) and Janne Niinimaa ($2.9 million), whom Milbury would prefer to keep. Rookie forwards Tuomo Ruutu, Pavel Vorobiev and/or Igor Radulov reportedly could be available in the right deal.

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Old
11-16-2003, 09:19 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voynich

Under the assumptions that I was operating I didn't believe my proposals were nearly as brutal as they actually are since I was sloppy with my homework on the position of the Islanders. I thank those that were kind enough to correct me without resorting to childish behavior, which I have been guilty of in defending myself. In the future I will be sure to be more certain to get a clear definition of the position the other team is in before I propose deals on this board. However, in this case I felt I had, but I was wrong. I admit it. I have done so repeatedly. I don't know what else to say.
Not sure I agree with the abuse you got, but I think you can understand why some Islander fans reacted strongly to your posts. You basically made the assumption (for various reasons) that the Isles were going to give away some of their most tradeable assets for nothing, and offered up a series of proposals which essentially had the Thrashers getting Parrish and/or Hamrlik for negligible return. I think you can understand why that got Isles fans annoyed.

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