HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Coffey vs. Lidstrom

View Poll Results: Coffey vs. Lidstrom
Coffey 30 27.27%
Lidstrom 80 72.73%
Voters: 110. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-24-2006, 07:38 PM
  #1
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,482
vCash: 500
Coffey vs. Lidstrom

Everyone knows the general list of best defenseman ever it goes somehting like this:
Orr
Harvey
Shore
Bourque
Potvin
Robinson
Kelly

Then after that you have guys like Coffey, Chelios, Park and now Lidstrom fighting it out. But here's my question. Who is the all-time better defenseman: Coffey or Lidstrom?

Coffey: Three Norris Trophies, 4 first team all-stars, 4 second team all-stars, 4 Cups, named the 28th best player of all time on the Hockey News top 50 list back in 1997.

Lidstrom: Four Norris Trophies, 7 first team all-stars, three Cups one Conn Smythe



IMO I'll still take Coffey. Although its hard to say anything bad about Lidstrom despite how good he can control a game he doesnt and hasnt quite done it at the level that Coffey did. Coffey was better offensively while Lidstrom was better defensively. Coffey has the lead in Cups 4-3, Lidstrom leads in Norris' 4-3. Coffey leads in post season all-star nods with 8-7. To me its still Coffey.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-24-2006, 07:53 PM
  #2
alanschu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,224
vCash: 500
I like Lidstrom, and I'm an Oilers fan.

alanschu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-24-2006, 08:10 PM
  #3
revolverjgw
Registered User
 
revolverjgw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,483
vCash: 500
I think Lidstrom is probably the better player, all things considered, but it's really close so there are situations where I'd prefer Coffey... variables such as era, the players on my team, the style we play, the coach, etc, they'd affect my decision. Coffey was a unique talent.

revolverjgw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-24-2006, 08:13 PM
  #4
vbet*
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: In my condo
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,679
vCash: 500
I think you would have to bring scotty bowman on and ask who is harder to defend against.

Someone call him in Florida.

vbet* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-24-2006, 08:20 PM
  #5
VanIslander
Don't waste my time
 
VanIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 23,882
vCash: 500
If Coffey had retired at the end of the eighties his legacy would be less tarnished.

The Coffey I saw in the nineties was still putting up some decent numbers but was the WORST player on the ice defensively on any and every given night that I saw him play. Awful. My childhood hero suddenly became an embarassment to me.

So,... Lidstrom. But it IS close, despite their different styles.

VanIslander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-24-2006, 08:46 PM
  #6
Sens Rule
Registered User
 
Sens Rule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,365
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
If Coffey had retired at the end of the eighties his legacy would be less tarnished.

The Coffey I saw in the nineties was still putting up some decent numbers but was the WORST player on the ice defensively on any and every given night that I saw him play. Awful. My childhood hero suddenly became an embarassment to me.

So,... Lidstrom. But it IS close, despite their different styles.
If he had retired in 1996 maybe. In the strike year he was perhaps the best player in the NHL and that was way after the 80's. Coffey tarnished his legacy hanging around with the Canes and Bruins and such. For the first half of the 90's he was still pretty great.

Sens Rule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-24-2006, 08:51 PM
  #7
Evil Speaker
Registered
 
Evil Speaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: North Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,891
vCash: 388
Because you can rely on Lidstrom to produce every night in virtually any aspect of the game i'll take him.

Evil Speaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-24-2006, 08:58 PM
  #8
sparr0w
Registered User
 
sparr0w's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 16,384
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gbeav View Post
I think you would have to bring scotty bowman on and ask who is harder to defend against.

Someone call him in Florida.
Scotty takes Lidstrom 100 times out of 100. He wasn't all that fond of Coffey.

sparr0w is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-24-2006, 09:12 PM
  #9
Homesick
Registered User
 
Homesick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,118
vCash: 50
The Oilers could sure use Coffey now as a PP QB. Actually any team could

Homesick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-24-2006, 09:21 PM
  #10
alanschu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,224
vCash: 500
I'm far too young to know if Coffey was PP QB.

alanschu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-24-2006, 09:26 PM
  #11
vbet*
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: In my condo
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,679
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
I'm far too young to know if Coffey was PP QB.
I was there for every game 79-88 and I forget if he was a pp qb, don't feel bad.

vbet* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-24-2006, 09:27 PM
  #12
alanschu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,224
vCash: 500
Somehow I have money on Gretzky being the primary PP QB, but maybe that's just me.

alanschu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-24-2006, 09:33 PM
  #13
Pavel Bure
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: British Columbia
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,277
vCash: 500
Lidstrom

Pavel Bure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-24-2006, 09:46 PM
  #14
ForsbergForever
Red Rocket
 
ForsbergForever's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,993
vCash: 500
Coffey put up numbers 99.9% of player could only dream of, but being a D-man you have to take his defensive skills into acount as well, which are clearly overshadowed by Nicklas Lidstrom's. Nick's numbers would probably be comprable to Coffey's if they had played their primes in the same decade so long story short, i'll go with Detroit's next captain.

ForsbergForever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-24-2006, 10:10 PM
  #15
Sens Rule
Registered User
 
Sens Rule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,365
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsberg4ever View Post
Coffey put up numbers 99.9% of player could only dream of, but being a D-man you have to take his defensive skills into acount as well, which are clearly overshadowed by Nicklas Lidstrom's. Nick's numbers would probably be comprable to Coffey's if they had played their primes in the same decade so long story short, i'll go with Detroit's next captain.
Lidstrom may well be better but he would not have put up the same numbers as Coffey. He is not nearly as good an offensive player as Coffey. To me Bourque is better than Lidstrom offensively and he played in the same era as Coffey. Bourque never scored 100 points. He scored at a 100 point pace only once in his career. (93/94 when he had 92 points in 72 games a 101 point pace). Coffey AVERAGED a 100 point a year pace over 15 consecutive seasons from his 2nd year through his 16th. Coffey is one of the greatest offensive forces in NHL history. Of course playing with Wayne and Mario boosted his totals but he boosted theirs as well. No player has ever scored over 183 points without Coffey on his team. Mario's 199 point year and all of Wayne's 196-215 point seasons were on a squad that boasted Coffey.

Lidstrom played in a lower scoring era but he was not the equal of Coffey offensively, nor was he close. The only defenceman in Coffey's class offensively is Orr who is undisputably the best offensive D-Man ever. To me Coffey is second ... Kelly and Potvin and Shore would be the others in my top 5 O-D-Men.

Sens Rule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-24-2006, 10:17 PM
  #16
Clumsyhab
Registered User
 
Clumsyhab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 7,102
vCash: 500
Lidstrom is a top 5 defenseman of all time, while Coffey may not even be a top 10 of all-time. Lidstrom!

Clumsyhab is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-24-2006, 10:18 PM
  #17
reckoning
Registered User
 
reckoning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,884
vCash: 500
Coffey`s time in Pittsburgh wasn`t a hi-lite. He racked up a lot of points, but had more scored against him. Extremely lazy without the puck in those years. He may also be the only player to twice in his career be traded in mid-season where the team that got rid of him went on to win the Cup anyways. Also after Detroit`s playoff disappointments in `95 and `96, they recognized Coffey (and Ciccarelli) as the weak link. Make those changes and they win 2 Cups.

That`s not meant to knock Coffey, just to put the "he won 4 Cups so he`s better" argument in perspective.

reckoning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-24-2006, 10:18 PM
  #18
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Everyone knows the general list of best defenseman ever it goes somehting like this:
Orr
Harvey
Shore
Bourque
Potvin
Robinson
Kelly

Then after that you have guys like Coffey, Chelios, Park and now Lidstrom fighting it out. But here's my question. Who is the all-time better defenseman: Coffey or Lidstrom?

Coffey: Three Norris Trophies, 4 first team all-stars, 4 second team all-stars, 4 Cups, named the 28th best player of all time on the Hockey News top 50 list back in 1997.

Lidstrom: Four Norris Trophies, 7 first team all-stars, three Cups one Conn Smythe



IMO I'll still take Coffey. Although its hard to say anything bad about Lidstrom despite how good he can control a game he doesnt and hasnt quite done it at the level that Coffey did. Coffey was better offensively while Lidstrom was better defensively. Coffey has the lead in Cups 4-3, Lidstrom leads in Norris' 4-3. Coffey leads in post season all-star nods with 8-7. To me its still Coffey.
It is currently Coffey. If Lidstrom can continue to be this good for several more seasons he will pass Coffey.

Ogopogo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-24-2006, 10:48 PM
  #19
Goldark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: United States
Posts: 2,552
vCash: 500
Coffey had better offensive skills but Lidstrom is not as far back as the numbers suggest. Consider the fact that Lidstrom put up back-to-back 70+ point seasons in the dead puck era when scoring a PPG for a forward was considered impressive. Enter the 'new' NHL with slightly increased scoring. A past-his-prime Lidstrom put up a PPG at 80 points. This is comparable to 90+ point seasons in the early 90's for example, Bourque-like numbers. Not Coffey numbers, but pretty impressive, considering Lidstrom doesn't gamble offensively like Coffey and is leagues better defensively.

They were once a pairing in Detroit. Lidstrom's stay-at-home rock solid defense allowed Coffey to do his thing.

Goldark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-24-2006, 11:12 PM
  #20
VanIslander
Don't waste my time
 
VanIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 23,882
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cup 2007 Sens Rule! View Post
If he had retired in 1996 maybe. In the strike year he was perhaps the best player in the NHL and that was way after the 80's. Coffey tarnished his legacy hanging around with the Canes and Bruins and such. For the first half of the 90's he was still pretty great.
No.

I watched him OFTEN at the Joe when he was a Red Wing and he SUCKED defensively, as bad or worse than Cliff Ronning (the Canuck centre who circled centre ice waiting for a pass). Yes, Coffey had gawdy offensive numbers, but my hero died in my eyes during his Detroit years: he was awful as a defenseman, more like an extra topline offensive winger.

VanIslander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-24-2006, 11:28 PM
  #21
RUSqueelin*
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,061
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cup 2007 Sens Rule! View Post
Lidstrom may well be better but he would not have put up the same numbers as Coffey. He is not nearly as good an offensive player as Coffey. To me Bourque is better than Lidstrom offensively and he played in the same era as Coffey. Bourque never scored 100 points. He scored at a 100 point pace only once in his career. (93/94 when he had 92 points in 72 games a 101 point pace). Coffey AVERAGED a 100 point a year pace over 15 consecutive seasons from his 2nd year through his 16th. Coffey is one of the greatest offensive forces in NHL history. Of course playing with Wayne and Mario boosted his totals but he boosted theirs as well. No player has ever scored over 183 points without Coffey on his team. Mario's 199 point year and all of Wayne's 196-215 point seasons were on a squad that boasted Coffey.

Lidstrom played in a lower scoring era but he was not the equal of Coffey offensively, nor was he close. The only defenceman in Coffey's class offensively is Orr who is undisputably the best offensive D-Man ever. To me Coffey is second ... Kelly and Potvin and Shore would be the others in my top 5 O-D-Men.
Great post. It's been 20 years since Coffey was in his prime so sometimes we forget. Offensively, without a question Coffey was the man. There is not a player in today's game to compare Coffey too. Coffey is the only skater I've seen who glided faster then everyone else skated.

But if I had to take a player to play for my team I'd take Libstrom. Someone who can be great in their own end and add to the offense (effectively - not as great as Coffey but non the less pretty good) is the backbone to any D. Lidstrom would have looked really good on the Oiler D.

This is a messed up topic, two completely different Dman.

RUSqueelin* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2006, 01:03 PM
  #22
God Bless Canada
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bentley reunion
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,790
vCash: 500
A few thoughts...

To get it out there right away, before my diatribe, my answer is Coffey. Now for the diabtribe...

*First of all, my pick for No. 8? Chris Chelios. A better all-round defenceman than either Coffey or Lidstrom. Chelios doesn't have Coffey's offensive game. (Outside of Bobby Orr, who does among career defencemen?) But Chelios dominated in ways Coffey couldn't. Chelios was almost as effective as Lidstrom offensively, and just as good defensively. The difference is that Chelios dominated physically in a way Lidstrom couldn't. He could change the tone of a game in so many ways. And he could carry his team on his back in ways that others couldn't. No. 9? Fetisov. Then Coffey. Then Lidstrom.
*Coffey's season in 1995 is the best seen in 20 years, outside of Ray Bourque in 1987 and 1990, when you had to see it to believe just how good Bourque was. I wouldn't say Coffey was the best player in the league that year, but when several media members suggested that the Hart Trophy be shared because there wasn't inter-conference play (like baseball does with the AL and NL MVPs), Coffey was at the top of the list for Western Conference MVP. You can put an asterisk beside his season because it was a shortened season, but Coffey dictated the pace of the game, every game. He scored at a 100-point pace in a season when scoring dipped below six goals per game. He was that good that year.
*I don't know if the game has ever seen a player quite like Coffey. Nobody since has come close. (You could definitely argue early stars like Cyclone Taylor and Harry Cameron as being Coffey-types, but that's another debate for another time). I think Coffey's the second-best offensive defenceman ever, behind only Orr. He was more than just skating ability, he had great on-ice vision and an almost unmatched offensive mind. He was average defensively. I don't know whether we'll ever see another Coffey. (Whether that's a good thing or not, that's your opinion).
*The downside with Coffey's career is that, much like Brian Leetch, he faded after he turned 30. Outside of the magical 1995 season, he was never selected to an all-star team after 1989-90. He bounced around the league. That could be a reflection of the amount of hockey he played between 1981 and 1991 (Five trips to the Stanley Cup final), but it is worth noting. He's one of six current or HHOF defencemen drafted between 1979 and 1982. The other five thrived well into their 30s, cementing their place in the Hall. Four of them were all-stars in their late 30s. The other, Larry Murphy, ensured his place in the HHOF with his performances with Detroit in 1997 and 1998. With the exception of 1995, Coffey did nothing to cement his legacy. (He was an all-star every year he was healthy from his sophomore season to 1990).
*The Stanley Cup debate. Here's where I actually give the edge to Lidstrom. Coffey has four rings to Lidstrom's three. But Lidstrom was a key player on three Champions, and earned hockey's greatest compliment - "He was the best player on the best team in hockey" - in 2002. Coffey was a key player on two Cup champions - 1984 and 1985. But his back was bothering him in 1987, and he missed half of the playoffs in 1991 due to an eye injury.
*As for Coffey being traded, and the team winning the Cup: remember who he was traded for. Edmonton got clutch goal scorer Craig Simpson. Pittsburgh got the grit they needed in Rick Tocchet and Kjell Samuelsson. Detroit got the power forward they needed in Brendan Shanahan. The best case would actually be LA in 1993, who received Jimmy Carson in exchange and still made it to the final. But when LA traded Coffey, they had to rely on their young Big 3 - Blake, Zhitnik and Sydor - and those were three of LA's best in the 1993 playoffs.
*Who would Scotty Bowman want? Easy. Lidstrom. He won three Cups with Lidstrom. He couldn't wait to ship Coffey out of Detroit following a poor playoff performance in 1996. And I don't think Bowman was heartbroken to see Coffey leave Pittsburgh, either.
*I would take Coffey, but this is a pick your poison decision. If you want that high-octane, high-risk defenceman who can do everything imaginable offensively, take Coffey. Not only will he move the puck and anchor the power play, he can be your offensive cornerstone, too. If you want the silky-smooth and ultra-smart, low-risk defenceman who is equally brilliant in both the offensive and defensive zones, you want Lidstrom. He won't dipsy-doodle through the opponents, but he can kill you any way you want offensively.

God Bless Canada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2006, 09:53 PM
  #23
Bluesfan1981
Registered User
 
Bluesfan1981's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 591
vCash: 500
Coffey. Very unique player; a defenseman with awesome offensive abilities and one of the fastest players ever. And while he wasn't anything special defensively, he wasn't horrible, or as bad as for example, Phil Housley.

Bluesfan1981 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2006, 09:56 PM
  #24
Nifty=HHOF
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Depressed Yankee Land
Country: United States
Posts: 1,551
vCash: 500
Lidstrom, better overall player. The Coffey I watched was a terror for the defense at both ends of the ice.

Nifty=HHOF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2006, 10:49 PM
  #25
vbet*
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: In my condo
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,679
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
Somehow I have money on Gretzky being the primary PP QB, but maybe that's just me.
Behind the net always.

vbet* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:13 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2016 All Rights Reserved.