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Coffey vs. Lidstrom

View Poll Results: Coffey vs. Lidstrom
Coffey 30 27.27%
Lidstrom 80 72.73%
Voters: 110. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-27-2006, 09:15 PM
  #51
norrisnick
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Originally Posted by KenLinsemanFanClub View Post
Not a valid comparable IMO. On a team with Gretzky, Messier, Anderson, Kurri, ETC. and later with Lemieux, how could you expect Coffey to lead the team in scoring? It is a testament to Coffey that he actually led once. Bourque OTOH didn't have the superstar forwards, but a good bunch of quality guys to feed. They both have great offensive numbers but for a pure offensive d-man, someone who could bring the puck up the ice and score or create off the rush, Coffey is ahead of Bourque hands down.
And you don't think that list led to some of Coffey's lofty numbers? Oh and he never led the Oilers or Pens in scoring.

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Old
08-27-2006, 09:41 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
That doesn't address the post. When did Bourque ever put up mediocre numbers?

And some numbers that ought to be right up your alley.

Team scoring rankings

Bourque
1st - 4 times, 2nd - 5 times, 3rd - 5 times

Coffey
1st - 1 time, 2nd - 3 times, 3rd - 6 times

Sorry, Bourque's numbers were good, not mediocre. Coffey's numbers were GREAT. So, compared to Coffey Bourque's numbers look mediocre. Kinda like Dale Hawerchuk's numbers next to Gretzky's.

Team scoring rankings????? How on earth does that strengthen the case for Bourque?

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Old
08-27-2006, 09:43 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by chooch View Post
How long have you watched?

Coffey was a junior player compared to a Bourque; in canada Cups he outscored Ray ..well becoz if you were the coach would you want Coffey back or Bourque? Ray was covering up for Coffeys reckless mistakes every shift. Trottier refused and went American.

Yeah he was fun to watch, i enjoyed watching the Oilers play 3 free skating rounds in the playoffs before playing a real team (usually banged up and tired) in the Finals.
But 12-9 wins arent worth much more than 4-1 wins as proven by Coffey's years in the East.
Bourque outscored Coffey in Canada Cups? LMAO.

chooch, you better complain. Your stat book has a major misprint.

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08-27-2006, 10:02 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Team scoring rankings????? How on earth does that strengthen the case for Bourque?
Since one can't objectively analyze the strength of the opposition in different situations (like different years/eras for example) the only fair way to judge performance is to compare them to their peers (ie their teams).

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08-27-2006, 10:56 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
Since one can't objectively analyze the strength of the opposition in different situations (like different years/eras for example) the only fair way to judge performance is to compare them to their peers (ie their teams).
Their peers is the entire NHL not their team.

Is Messier a bum because he was behind Gretzky on the Oilers for nearly a decade? Is Esposito a bum because he was behind Orr on the Bruins? Of course, Mikita is no damn good, he had Hull on his team.

That is not a fair way to judge anybody, it is a flawed way and leads to confusion. It is less fair than giving recognition for being the best LW in the NHL. (Is John LeClair better than Steve Yzerman? He was an all star more often)


Last edited by Ogopogo*: 08-27-2006 at 11:01 PM.
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Old
08-27-2006, 11:47 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Their peers is the entire NHL not their team.

Is Messier a bum because he was behind Gretzky on the Oilers for nearly a decade? Is Esposito a bum because he was behind Orr on the Bruins? Of course, Mikita is no damn good, he had Hull on his team.

That is not a fair way to judge anybody, it is a flawed way and leads to confusion. It is less fair than giving recognition for being the best LW in the NHL. (Is John LeClair better than Steve Yzerman? He was an all star more often)
I'm shocked you feel this way. I'm merely taking subjectivity out of the equation by ignoring the quality of the opposition and assuming an even playing field between the peer groups.

Clearly four 1st, five 2nd, and five 3rd place finishes is a far better example of greatness than one 1st, three 2nds, and six 3rd place finishes.

I didn't bother to get into the margin percentages but I'm sure you're up to the task.

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Old
08-28-2006, 12:00 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
I'm shocked you feel this way. I'm merely taking subjectivity out of the equation by ignoring the quality of the opposition and assuming an even playing field between the peer groups.

Clearly four 1st, five 2nd, and five 3rd place finishes is a far better example of greatness than one 1st, three 2nds, and six 3rd place finishes.

I didn't bother to get into the margin percentages but I'm sure you're up to the task.
A single team is too small a test group to make a comparison meaningful.

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08-28-2006, 12:06 AM
  #58
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Offensively Coffey > Lidstrom by a fair margin, but defensively Lidstrom > Coffey by a greater margin. Also Lidstrom has slightly better leadership skills (in fact it is expected that he'll be the next Wings captain) and has been more durable so far in his career.

So yeah, Lidstrom.

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Old
08-28-2006, 03:49 AM
  #59
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I'll take Lidstrom

Strong case could be made for Coffey but I think Lidstrom has excelled in pretty much every facet of the game for many years now.

Also as far as your second tier is concerned I think Brian Leetch should be there. I like Chelios much more but they are definitely in the same class as the top two American defensemen if not players (Mullen, Lafontaine ... Hull if you wanna count him ... but I think those two are the best, actually) and Leetch is probably the greatest Ranger in history (Bathgate and a couple others give him a run for his money).

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08-28-2006, 12:16 PM
  #60
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Leetch is way behind Chelios. Chelios is a top 10 defenceman ever. I wouldn't put Leetch in the top 15, and he'd be in tough to make my top 20. Top 25? He'd be top 25. I'd take Chelios before Lidstrom or Coffey.

Here's the most effective way to break this down. Between the ages of 20 and 30, Coffey was the better defenceman. He won two Norris Trophies and was an all-star eight times. Lidstrom was an all-star three times. Between the ages of 31 and 36 (Lidstrom's current age), Lidstrom was the much better player. Coffey had one Norris and one all-star selection. Lidstrom had a Conn Smythe, four all-star selections and four Norris Trophies. Few have done more to enhance their legacy after their 30th birthday than Lidstrom. Why Coffey declined so much, with the exception of one season, after the 1991 season is another debate for another time. (Injuries, the amount of hockey played before turning 30, a style of play that wasn't condusive to post-30 success, etc.)

Coffey, IMO, had the better peak value. His best season in 1995 was better than Lidstrom's best. (Lidstrom has a few seasons that could be considered his best, in terms of regular season, I'll rate 2003 as his best). I'd say Coffey in 1986 was also better than anything Lidstrom had. In terms of longevity and staying at the top, Lidstrom trumps Coffey. Coffey has more rings, Lidstrom was a key player on more championships.

The "he wasn't the top scorer on his team" argument is weak and only diminishes an argument. Hard to lead a team in scoring as a defenceman. Even harder to do it when you're on teams with Gretzky and Mario. So what? There were years when Coffey would have led 75 to 80 per cent of teams in scoring. Ray Bourque would have never led the 1980s Oilers or late 80s/early 90s Penguins in scoring, either.

If nothing else, this poll has only reaffirmed Coffey's place as one of the most contested and debated players in the post-expansion era. You either love or hate Coffey. No in between. You either admire the offensive flair, the speed, the creativity; or you hate the defensive play. (I think he was average defensively, but that's why I'd take Chelios and Fetisov ahead of Coffey). He might be No. 6 on one list, and No. 20-something on another. I think most of us would rate Lidstrom somewhere between 8 and 12 overall.

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Old
08-28-2006, 09:33 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoppaArGud View Post
Strong case could be made for Coffey but I think Lidstrom has excelled in pretty much every facet of the game for many years now.

Also as far as your second tier is concerned I think Brian Leetch should be there. I like Chelios much more but they are definitely in the same class as the top two American defensemen if not players (Mullen, Lafontaine ... Hull if you wanna count him ... but I think those two are the best, actually) and Leetch is probably the greatest Ranger in history (Bathgate and a couple others give him a run for his money).
Joey Mullen is a borderline top 10 American player of all-time.

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Old
08-29-2006, 09:28 AM
  #62
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My pick is Lidstrom, but it is a close one in my opinion

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08-29-2006, 06:14 PM
  #63
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Personally I'm shocked that Coffey isnt getting the votes I thought he would. I put Coffey ahead of Lidstrom for a reason. Bad defensively? How could he be? Coffey or one of his teammates at least, had the puck almost all the time. 5 times he had over 100 points. Only Orr is the other d-man to get over 100 points more than once. Throw in how he did in the playoffs with 196 points in 194 games and the Canada Cups, even the World Cup in '96, and its hard to put Lidstrom ahead of him as an all time great. If Lidstrom wins the Norris next year then you might say so, then we'll talk.

Now about Coffey's defensive "liabilites" remember who broke up the 2 on 1 rush in the '84 Canada Cup and who led the rush up the ice to lead to Bossy's goal, which Coffey assisted on. And really just because he wasnt a bonecruncher does it mean he was bad defensively? Lidstrom isnt a bone cruncher. Coffey was a very good positional player. And he had the speed to get back when he was out of position. I look at a guy like Bryan Berard who seemed to be out of position a lot in his career because of careless rushes. Coffey had more poise. And in his career I can only think of one time when a defensive mistake cost his team. Back in '96 in the playoffs against the Avs in the 1st game he tried to break up a two on one and intercepted a pass that he accidentally knocked into his net. It looked bad, but we forget that Coffey had two goals before that in the game and the Avs won in OT anyways.

So for a guy who was so "bad" defensively he really doesnt have a lot of bad moments.


Last edited by Big Phil: 08-29-2006 at 06:14 PM. Reason: Missed something
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Old
08-29-2006, 07:23 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Bourque outscored Coffey in Canada Cups? LMAO.

chooch, you better complain. Your stat book has a major misprint.
? Where did I say that. And you know I never talk unless I saw it.

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Old
08-29-2006, 07:31 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by chooch View Post
? Where did I say that. And you know I never talk unless I saw it.

Ahh, I misread your post.

Anyway, Coffey was much better offensively and that is the point of the discussion.

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08-29-2006, 07:54 PM
  #66
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Lidstrom is a far more complete player, but coffee is the #2 offensive defenseman of all-time. I chose Lidstrom because of his all around game, but it would depend on what you want in a player.

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08-29-2006, 08:29 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
Lidstrom is a far more complete player, but coffee is the #2 offensive defenseman of all-time. I chose Lidstrom because of his all around game, but it would depend on what you want in a player.
This post could have ended this debate long ago. Very concise, but correct.

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Old
08-29-2006, 09:14 PM
  #68
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? Where did I say that. And you know I never talk unless I saw it.
Sometimes I think the rest of the world might experience a different reality than you when watching the same event, cooch.

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