Hmm a multiple choice question with Pock, Richter, Roszival and Leetch as my choices.
Somehow I'm not feeling too warm and fuzzy inside.
we're talking backend of d rotation, not top 4. Not to worry, I like Pock, evertime I see him he does something positive. He is 24 now, NYR have to see what they have with Pock. I don't imagine they signed him to be sent to Hartford, he is going to play with NYR.
I like when people mention the fact that Leetch is too old, but don't seem to have a problem with the Brendan Shanahan signing, considering he's almost the same age.....
Leetch is an old 38.Look at how many games Leetch has missed in the last three seasons?How many injuries Leetch has had?He missed most of 2002-03 with a bruised foot and then missed more games the following season with the same injury.Dumbass wasn't wearing the protection on his skate and he took a puck in the same spot of the previous injury.Last year in Boston,he was bothered a nagging groin injury and a knee injury.
Look at Shahahan.He has missed 12 games in 7 seasons.They point towards the year(lockout)of inactivity as a reason why Leetch was injured and ineffective.Shanahan did not have those problems.He played every game and scored 40 goals.New NHL or Old NHL.What did Leetch do in the new NHL?Nothing
I like when people mention the fact that Leetch is too old, but don't seem to have a problem with the Brendan Shanahan signing, considering he's almost the same age.....
In fairness I think it's not so much the years, but the mileage.
Even injured and missing approx 25% of the season, Leetch (in one of his "worst" seasons) still managed to put up the same amount of points that Rachunek / Rozsival have ever done in their best seasons in the NHL.
Forget Leetch,don't waste your & my time bringing up his name.When he
hangs up his scates we can rise his # to the rafter.Otherwise this is a dead issue.
I am amazed that somebody brings up a thread about him every other day.Are you
bored?And there is a multitude of posters that jump right in.I am sorry but this is
a waste of time.He is not coming back,fini,the end.
Even injured and missing approx 25% of the season, Leetch (in one of his "worst" seasons) still managed to put up the same amount of points that Rachunek / Rozsival have ever done in their best seasons in the NHL.
Don't really think the question is whether he can outscore them by 10-15 point, so much as other factors including durability, defensive liability and whether the Rangers have someone who is capable of covering those mistakes (which is iffy and would thus likely require another trade or move on top of the Leetch move so now we'd be talking about two additions to the defense, not just Leetch).
Don't really think the question is whether he can outscore them by 10-15 point, so much as other factors including durability, defensive liability and whether the Rangers have someone who is capable of covering those mistakes (which is iffy and would thus likely require another trade or move on top of the Leetch move so now we'd be talking about two additions to the defense, not just Leetch).
The other issue, aside from the above that i see would be the durability. Lets say Leetch stays relatively healthy for 70 games, makes it past the trade deadline with no health issues, THEN has his durability come into play. I wouldnt be so worried about losing him during the season here and there, as you will know what you are getting-- but to make decisions thinking he is healthy, and have it come back to bite you walking into the playoffs can seriously jeopardize our team, as we might pass on potential 'upgrade trades'. Now i know this is true with everyone, but the situation is a little more realistic when he has such a history (especially recent history) of injury.
Don't really think the question is whether he can outscore them by 10-15 point, so much as other factors including durability, defensive liability and whether the Rangers have someone who is capable of covering those mistakes (which is iffy and would thus likely require another trade or move on top of the Leetch move so now we'd be talking about two additions to the defense, not just Leetch).
I think Ward would be a good fit with Leetch, so i'm not sure why you think they would have to acquire another dman? This wouldn't be like the past when he was paired with Poti, and he wouldn't have to play 30 mins a night, because they would have 3 balanced dman pairings.
I'm not saying they should definitely go out and sign him asap, nor would I be upset if they did sign him, but if they can something of value in return for Rachunek then I think it's a no brainer.
Of course we haven't seen Rachunek in the NHL in awhile, but I recall after the trade he definitely was not impressive in a Rangers uniform.
Plus when you consider Staal will most likely be ready to join the club next year, Leetch with a one year contract seems like a reasonable move (if they can turn Rachunek into a forward prospect, picks, etc).
I think it's Singn who says it best "Leetch is always welcome on my team".
I think Ward would be a good fit with Leetch, so i'm not sure why you think they would have to acquire another dman? This wouldn't be like the past when he was paired with Poti, and he wouldn't have to play 30 mins a night, because they would have 3 balanced dman pairings.
Sadly I don't think Ward is quite the guy for that task. He's a solid defensive defenseman, but after watching Leetch last year it's going to take more than.
And that's going with the assumption he's as productive as last season and healthier than he's been the last few years.
If they are looking for $2m then that is a loud "No Thanks". No way for that much. I'm from the camp that thinks it is time the Rangers finally moved on from '94 and I would be against a Leetch return even if he could be effective this season. But let's be honest and admit that Leetch is a shell of his former self. The average fan would expect the old Leetch and show me an example where the Rangers have played an old superstar the appropriate amount of minutes. Messier's 20 minutes a night, not quite. Just hard to imagine how this works out ok.
If I had a dollar for everytime somebody said "way too much" about somebody this summer, I would be rich enough to pay for Leetch to play on my mens league team. There is no difference between $2 million and $1.25 million or anything else. Looking at this as a business, Leetch is worth $2 million for his return even though his play isn't worth that much so I wouldn't be suprised if they signed him for that amount. My only problem is that this would handicap us a bit if we wanted to add some marquee talent at the deadline, but I'm against adding a 3-4 million dollar man in March anyway.
Ozo, sykora are some examples of how veterans just didnt work well.
Nope, not until he either retires or signs elsewhere.
I'm convinced that anything less than a player who eclipses Leetch will do it. People genuinely love Brian, and that love makes them a little irrational. They want it to be the way it was. That day is done. Leetch back with the Rangers would be a step backwards.
to see Leetch with 18-20 minutes per night, not 23-25 minutes per night. The extra 5-7 minutes per night takes its toll, especially when the bulk of that is killing penalties. He's an offensive specialist who knows how to play defense. Perhaps at 38 he should be used as such. Leetch was always the player in the best shape, logging more minutes than most everybody in the league. I still think he can be effective if used properly, and can be additive to a good team.
He's an offensive specialist who knows how to play defense. Perhaps at 38 he should be used as such.
That's one of the big areas that concerns me. The injuries and age have very much robbed him of the ability to play that defense, from what I've seen.
Few years ago we thought it was just being with the Rangers and that maybe a change would spark that.
But since then I've seen that it simply wasn't a matter of where he played or how long, but rather he just REALLY struggled to play defense with the limitations that crept into his games.
Now I've seen it on 3 teams since 04 (he was at least able to bring offense in Toronto but his defense was 'eh') and I being logical I can't honestly see it changing or getting better, only worse.
Leetch is a very old 38 and I'm starting to see the "beloved" hopes starting to roll out.
If he gets on a contender....
Now that he's playing in the playoffs again....
Now that he's back home in Boston...
If he becomes a Ranger again.....
If he joins the Rangers new system and only plays X minutes or X situations.....
All have been used for Leetch in the last 4 years or so and at some point we have to face the fact that it's not the situation, it's just Leetch's career really coming to an end. It's very sad, because for many of us he's still the 20 year old rookie or the 26 year old veteran who raises his game to an Orr like level. But at the end of the day, the "possibilities" and "scenarios" for Leetch to be a really useful defenseman have far outweighed what the reality's been.
For a board that really prides itself on (as a whole) looking at things fair and logically and being mindful of patterns, I don't feel we're really doing that with Leetch. Leetch looked tired in 03, even in the playoffs with Toronto. There were comments even then that his defense had REALLY slipped. Last year was another step down. I just honestly do not believe that looking at that pattern and with even more mileage under the hood things will change.
Problem is that Leetch really can't play much defense at this point. He's better offensivly than Roszival and Rachunek, but I also believe he's worse on the defensive side of things. That really pains me to say it, but watching him last year I honestly felt that way.
Let's be honest though, Larry. At a minimum, Leetch's defensive game is AT LEAST (and IMO it is better) as good/bad as Roszival's.
110% right.
I couldn't agree more. Anyone who has watched Rozsival closely will see how many boneheaded plays he's made in his own zone, and the amount of good plays he's made isn't nearly enough to make up for the bad ones. He had Malik back there to save him everytime he made a stupid play trying to beat a forechecking player one-on-one coming out of the zone instead of making a pass. Rachunek would be GREAT alongside Malik. He's everything that Rozsival is, and better, in EVERY FACET of the game. We don't need Rozsival, everyone is so obssessed with this stupid plus-minus stat. Almost ANYONE could have gotten that kind of plus-minus playing with Jagr the way Jagr was playing last season.
- Why are people mentioning Pock? He has NO FUTURE in the NHL. He's an offensive defensman with AVERAGE defensive skills at best. On top of that, him winning a loose puck battle is a rarity. He doesn't have what it takes to take it to the next level. That's why he's a borderline b-level prospect.
- If we can trade Rozsival, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Rozsival is TERRIBLE defensively, and it was because of Marek Malik's stellar defensive play as Rosey's partner, and Jagr's amazing season that lead to Rosey's high plus minus that he came out "smelling like roses..." I know, I know, bad pun, I'm sorry.
- If this trade could net us a 3rd line checking center, then that would be great.
[QUOTE=GretzNYR99;6392235]- Why are people mentioning Pock? He has NO FUTURE in the NHL. He's an offensive defensman with AVERAGE defensive skills at best. On top of that, him winning a loose puck battle is a rarity. He doesn't have what it takes to take it to the next level. That's why he's a borderline b-level prospect.
after reading this, a starwars quote comes to mind.....
- Why are people mentioning Pock? He has NO FUTURE in the NHL. He's an offensive defensman with AVERAGE defensive skills at best. On top of that, him winning a loose puck battle is a rarity. He doesn't have what it takes to take it to the next level. That's why he's a borderline b-level prospect.
after reading this, a starwars quote comes to mind.....
"you will pay for your lack of vision."
u should take a closer look at Pock..............
What has he done? In his latest stint, he was below average defensively, and was scared to step up offensively. If he starts playing with some confidence, he could POSSIBLY be a 6th defender one day, but his offensive skills - which is what is going to have to get him by in the NHL because his defense is not nearly good enough - are not good enough to compensate for his lack of defensive skill. He's average one-on-one, he gets beaten to too many loose puck battles because he's not strong, and he's small, his skating is great and his passing is decent, but his overall on-ice vision needs to be better.
What has he done? In his latest stint, he was below average defensively, and was scared to step up offensively. If he starts playing with some confidence, he could POSSIBLY be a 6th defender one day, but his offensive skills - which is what is going to have to get him by in the NHL because his defense is not nearly good enough - are not good enough to compensate for his lack of defensive skill. He's average one-on-one, he gets beaten to too many loose puck battles because he's not strong, and he's small, his skating is great and his passing is decent, but his overall on-ice vision needs to be better.
If he is used properly, he will be an asset. Also, with Leetch or PP will be top 5, without we will only be middle of the pack, even with Shanny! Mark my words!
What has he done? In his latest stint, he was below average defensively, and was scared to step up offensively. If he starts playing with some confidence, he could POSSIBLY be a 6th defender one day, but his offensive skills - which is what is going to have to get him by in the NHL because his defense is not nearly good enough - are not good enough to compensate for his lack of defensive skill. He's average one-on-one, he gets beaten to too many loose puck battles because he's not strong, and he's small, his skating is great and his passing is decent, but his overall on-ice vision needs to be better.
again, some see it, some don't...i think he'll surprise alotta people this year. You must admit, for a person that doesn't see it(yup, this means you), it must be confusing why so many folks create this mysticism about the young lad, right?
Not to worry though, you will understand the full power of the dar....err, i mean, you'll get it soon.
again, some see it, some don't...i think he'll surprise alotta people this year. You must admit, for a person that doesn't see it(yup, this means you), it must be confusing why so many folks create this mysticism about the young lad, right? Not to worry though, you will understand the full power of the dar....err, i mean, you'll get it soon.
Mysticism? Wrong word there...
- How is observing someone's play "speculation?"
- If this kid was that good, then why hasn't he stepped it up with the chances he's had?
Yeah, you're right, Yoda. I don't see how someone can blindly instill their faith in a borderline b-level prospect who has done little to show that he can make it at the next level in the chances he's had to do so.
Maybe you can use the power of the force to one day realize that if you lack skill in one department, you must do more than compensate in the other to equal the balance out. Doesn't matter if he's a kid or not, his skills just are not good enough. He's so far down the prospect depth chart, kids like Sanguinetti, Staal, Sauer, and Baranka are far less developed and they're THAT FAR AHEAD of him.
Maybe one day, you'll understand what they call "upside." It's something Pock just doesn't have.
I hear your concerns, although I did see flashes of Leetch of old. Early on, he was barely skating, but that wasn't because of age as much as it seemed to be that so many on that team were sleepwalking early on which prompted the trading of Joe Thornton. I thought he was better, but never seemed to be overly comfortable there. I didn't get the sense that this was a guy that couldn't play 18-20 NHL minutes (he was playing almost 24 minutes per game, which seems like a lot for an old 38 year old). Granted, I only saw parts of about a dozen or so Bruins games, and I'm sure Bruins fans were negative, as who wouldn't when you're team is losing and you have a guy making $4MM for the year and isn't at a point per game.
I'm not saying sign him, but I am saying that he would be an asset on a decent team with a decent partner. I think that offensively, he still has something to add, and defensively, he can still contribute if he's not out there 24 minutes per night.
- Why are people mentioning Pock? He has NO FUTURE in the NHL. He's an offensive defensman with AVERAGE defensive skills at best. On top of that, him winning a loose puck battle is a rarity. He doesn't have what it takes to take it to the next level. That's why he's a borderline b-level prospect.
- If we can trade Rozsival, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Rozsival is TERRIBLE defensively, and it was because of Marek Malik's stellar defensive play as Rosey's partner, and Jagr's amazing season that lead to Rosey's high plus minus that he came out "smelling like roses..." I know, I know, bad pun, I'm sorry.
- If this trade could net us a 3rd line checking center, then that would be great.
I don't know how you can say he has absolutely no future in the NHL, He did put up a single season record in hartford for points by a defenseman. From the little bit that I have seen he has an offensive upside and doesnt play any worse on defense then lets say Poti or Ozo... .He might not be a stellar player but I have faith that he can find work in the NHL even if it isn't with the rangers.... and why do people feel that the rangers would even trade rozsival, they just resigned him, it just doesn't make any sense to me.
