If they deal Lundqvist, all of mid-town Manhattan will be burnt to a crisp. Cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria! I think financially(regardless of how good Lundy is) they'll hold onto Henrik. Think about it, he's not only making NYR money here in the USA but he is also in Sweden. This thing is still a business. He's connected with the fans and the guy is no slouch-look at what he did over in Sweden prior to coming to the NHL.
Whoever is dealt, we better get one hell of a return back!
This is really a hard topic to make a decision on because both goalies can still go either way, it all depends on how this season goes; how henrik handles the sophmore season and if Al can better his game and turn heads at the AHL level.
We have one of the top two or three goalies in the world (and he's very young) and people are fantasizing about getting someone better in Montoya. Why? I suppose because that's what fans do.
Montoya will either be a fringe NHL goalie or a starting goalie somewhere else unless Lundqvist gets seriously injured. Get used to that fact.
But picking one over the other right now, for any variety of reasons is just not going to bring back an accurate answer.
Even saying something along the lines of "The one who was just nominated for a Vezina" can't hold true because we could point right back to examples in the last 20 years that would dispell that opinion as well including one right here in NY (Beezer actually winning the Vezina as a 23 year old, while Richter was toiling in College and hadn't "proved" anything yet).
The discussion itself just runs into a dead-end no matter how we approach it. It's too early to tell one way or the other and barring some never before seen trade, the Rangers just aren't going to get a high return anyway right now for a guy like Montoya.
Even if Montoya isn't as good as Lundqvist, he's still looking like a potential starting goalie someday. As such you've got to hold on to him anyway to be able to get something worthwhile in a trade. Whether we like it or not, teams just don't trade for 21 year-old AHL goalies.
And you make this statement based on........what exactly?
Keep in mind that even though Lundqvist is young and was only a rookie last year, it's not like he came out of nowhere. He's been absolutely stellar the past three years ... two were just not in the NHL.
As far as Montoya being better is concerned, i think that's a pretty tall order. While admitting i haven't seen a ton of games he's played in, i have seen a few, and the impression i got was a talented but somewhat undisciplined guy who at times overcommitted to the shooter and would occasionally even lose his positioning. While those are both coachable (and obviously weren't huge issues given his stats), it does mean he's a long way behind Lundqvist, who was in the NHL and dominating last year. And in a lot of the games i saw, "dominating" was probably to passive a description. There were times when the guy was just absolutely ridiculous , winning games practically single-handedly. You don't get much better than that, and if Montoya turns out to be, then trade Henrik and clear your schedule from 2009 to about 2015 ... you have a lot of parades to attend ...
Yeah, little bit of fun with photoshop. Taking something old and something new and making.....something kind of disturbing.
As for the goalies, the odds say that Lundqvist is probably the guy and if I had to keep one, and HAD to make a decision, I wouldn't think twice in taking Lundqvist.
But at the end of the day we don't have to make that choice and history dictates we're not going to get anything of value for rushing to make a trade right now so the Rangers have pretty good reason to wait and see.
Ironically enough, watching Lundqvist as a 20/21 year old and watching Montoya at the same age, I really don't see a big difference.
Keep in mind that even though Lundqvist is young and was only a rookie last year, it's not like he came out of nowhere. He's been absolutely stellar the past three years ... two were just not in the NHL.
Yes, and Montoya led his team to a medal in the WJC & became an All-Star in the AHL during his first year in professional hockey.
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As far as Montoya being better is concerned, i think that's a pretty tall order.
Why? It's not like Henke was head and shoulders better than Montoya, during the same point in their development.
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While admitting i haven't seen a ton of games he's played in, i have seen a few, and the impression i got was a talented but somewhat undisciplined guy who at times overcommitted to the shooter and would occasionally even lose his positioning.
Making the AHL ALL-Star team in his rookie year is pretty impressive for someone who is somewhat undisciplined.
At this point, Montoya is the only elite-level prospect that the Rangers have to have taken a big step forward in his career. If you have an elite-level forward prospect, you project him to be a top-liner. If you have an elite-level goalie prospect, the projections are more than just a capable starter. There is every chance that Montoya wil be at least as good as Henke.
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it does mean he's a long way behind Lundqvist, who was in the NHL and dominating last year.
Henke is 3 years older with 3 more years of development.
Yeah, little bit of fun with photoshop. Taking something old and something new and making.....something kind of disturbing.
As for the goalies, the odds say that Lundqvist is probably the guy and if I had to keep one, and HAD to make a decision, I wouldn't think twice in taking Lundqvist.
But at the end of the day we don't have to make that choice and history dictates we're not going to get anything of value for rushing to make a trade right now so the Rangers have pretty good reason to wait and see.
Ironically enough, watching Lundqvist as a 20/21 year old and watching Montoya at the same age, I really don't see a big difference.
Point taken ... and i defer to your judgement as i never saw a second of Lundqvists play as a 20/21 year old. Definitely a good problem to have too many number one goalies ... and you're right trading Montoya at this point isn't a smart move. Even if Lundqvist stays healthy and there's no need for a call-up, leaving him down for one more year in the AHL isn't exactly gonna stunt his development, and the longer he plays well, the more trade value he'll have.
And you make this statement based on........what exactly?
The fact that I've seen hundreds of goalies over the years and I can't put it any more simply than to say that Lundqvist is already in the upper 1% of those.
This isn't a matter of who to trade or when to trade. It's just that our current goaltender is already elite in the NHL and on the international stage.
Yeah, Montoya could be better. Lots of things could happen. Holt could end up better too.
Fans just love to fantasize about what might be in the offing even if they already have the goods. It's like the guy or girl who keeps looking past their perfect mate in hopes of finding something better.
The fact that I've seen hundreds of goalies over the years and I can't put it any more simply than to say that Lundqvist is already in the upper 1% of those.
You claim that you have been a fan for a long time. How can you possibly, with a straight face, lump in Henke to the greatest goalies of all time based on one year in the NHL? A tad optimistic, no? Did you lump in Beezer into that sama category when he started out? What you are arguing would be akin to the Rangers trading away Richter and keeping Beezer.
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This isn't a matter of who to trade or when to trade. It's just that our current goaltender is already elite in the NHL and on the international stage.
He had one elite year. That is not the same as being on an elite level already. And if Montoya can be on the same level, what is the damage to find out? If he is on the same level, then the older, more expensive goalie can be traded.
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Yeah, Montoya could be better. Lots of things could happen. Holt could end up better too.
No need for ridiculous remarks. Sure anything could happen, but I would say that the odds of Montoya being a top-level starter a just a tad better than that of Holt, wouldn't you say?
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Fans just love to fantasize about what might be in the offing even if they already have the goods. It's like the guy or girl who keeps looking past their perfect mate in hopes of finding something better.
Sigh.....you just cannot see the forest through the trees, can you? This has nothing to do with "fantasy" and everything to do with the possiblities that exist for the future. In another couple of years, there is an excellent chance that Montoya's level will be that of Henke's from last year. Why not find out? If he is, then Henke would make a great trading chip.
THN predicts we won't see Montoya in the NHL till 08-09
That's about right, maybe a year or so apart than what I thought. Montoya needs to have another stellar year in Hartford and continue his development. Next year, at the earliest, he could make a case for becoming Henke's understudy with the team. But if he were to remain in Hartford for an extra year, I would have no problem with it. It certainly did not hurt Miller at all.
I still don't think you can compare Montoya to Lundqvist until Montoya hits the NHL and by then Lundqvist could have established him as a truly elite goalie...so at that point even if Montoya progresses nicely do you trade your elite goalie away to make room for your up and comer? Maybe if it comes down to a salary cap move... but I think we will see Lundy as the starter for a long time.
I still don't think you can compare Montoya to Lundqvist until Montoya hits the NHL and by then Lundqvist could have established him as a truly elite goalie...so at that point even if Montoya progresses nicely do you trade your elite goalie away to make room for your up and comer? Maybe if it comes down to a salary cap move... but I think we will see Lundy as the starter for a long time.
True but all still depends.
Case in point being Beezer/Richter, Carey/Kolzig, Belfour/Hasek and others.
You have this conversation with a Ranger fan in 1986 and they say Beezer.
1996 with a caps fan they take Carey and 1991 with a Hawks fan and they take Belfour.
Are scenarios featuring situations like that frequent? No.
But they aren't as rare as some people seem to want to make them out to be.
Case in point being Beezer/Richter, Carey/Kolzig, Belfour/Hasek and others.
You have this conversation with a Ranger fan in 1986 and they say Beezer.
1996 with a caps fan they take Carey and 1991 with a Hawks fan and they take Belfour.
Are scenarios featuring situations like that frequent? No.
But they aren't as rare as some people seem to want to make them out to be.
That's fair, and I'm definitely happy to have Montoya. Your previous point about holding on to Montoya is dead on, right now his value is not as high as his talent/potential is because he hasn't proven it at the NHL level. In a few years if he is pushing for the NHL starting job then we can get full value, assuming he continues to progress as he should.
That's fair, and I'm definitely happy to have Montoya. Your previous point about holding on to Montoya is dead on, right now his value is not as high as his talent/potential is because he hasn't proven it at the NHL level. In a few years if he is pushing for the NHL starting job then we can get full value, assuming he continues to progress as he should.
And that's really what it comes down to. If Montoya becomes a young stud, even if he isn't worth keeping over Lundqvist, he'll still be worth more than he is now. While there's no gurantee that it'll happen, based on early returns it's probably worth the "gamble".
I honestly don't know who will be better years from now. Chicago is a perfect example of not knowing and sometimes the answer not being so "clear cut".
Belfour was coming off an exceptionally amazing season and was at his Vezina winning peak. But a few years later you could argue Hasek was the better goalie (or you could argue that you'd still take Belfour and not be wrong).
I don't think it's necessarily clear cut sometimes. I think for simplicity we tend to think the answer is going to be clear cut, no questions asked. But if Montoya keeps developing and fine tuning, I really don't think it's going to be as easy as a lot of people think.
Lundqvist at the same age, was just as talented and also had raw elements.
You claim that you have been a fan for a long time.
That's my claim. Are you disputing it?
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Originally Posted by True Blue
How can you possibly, with a straight face, lump in Henke to the greatest goalies of all time based on one year in the NHL? A tad optimistic, no?
I didn't say he will have one of the top 1% careers. He has shown me a skill set far beyond what most NHL goalies ever show. I say this with a straight face.
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Originally Posted by True Blue
Did you lump in Beezer into that sama category when he started out?
Nope I never put Beezer anywhere near that category.
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Originally Posted by True Blue
What you are arguing would be akin to the Rangers trading away Richter and keeping Beezer.
I never said that and would not have done it but you can claim I'm arguing whatever you'd like.
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Originally Posted by True Blue
He had one elite year. That is not the same as being on an elite level already. And if Montoya can be on the same level, what is the damage to find out? If he is on the same level, then the older, more expensive goalie can be traded.
I didn't say to trade Montoya. What I do feel is that if a deal was offered for Montoya that I felt would be a winner for the Rangers I would do it. The counterargument always offered up here is that we can't get much for Montoya now. Fine. Then we don't deal him.
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Originally Posted by True Blue
No need for ridiculous remarks. Sure anything could happen, but I would say that the odds of Montoya being a top-level starter a just a tad better than that of Holt, wouldn't you say?
Odds favor Montoya over Holt. Odds also favor Lundqvist over Montoya. Ridiculous is in the eye of the beholder.
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Originally Posted by True Blue
Sigh.....you just cannot see the forest through the trees, can you?
I have more faith in my opinion of the relative merits of Lundqvist and Montoya than I have in your opinion, much like you value your own opinion over mine.
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Originally Posted by True Blue
This has nothing to do with "fantasy" and everything to do with the possiblities that exist for the future. In another couple of years, there is an excellent chance that Montoya's level will be that of Henke's from last year. Why not find out? If he is, then Henke would make a great trading chip.
We can find it out but I disagree that there is an excellent chance that Montoya will ever attain Lundqvist's skills. This is an argument of opinion, not fact, so calling in to question how I view the situation while placing yourself on a podium of make believe reality is also just fantasy.
