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Old
11-16-2003, 12:33 PM
  #1
jhopspensfan
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Patrick really needs...

to make a strong pitch for Vishnevski. We need another blueliner who can clear the front of the net.

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11-16-2003, 12:38 PM
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Vishnevsky? Why not Cairns?

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11-16-2003, 12:58 PM
  #3
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Originally Posted by Jacobv2
Vishnevsky? Why not Cairns?
Cairns would be nice

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11-16-2003, 12:59 PM
  #4
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and why would the ducks want to give up vishnevski? plus, i do think cairns is much more plausible both in price and obtaining him.

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11-16-2003, 01:13 PM
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Ducks have been rumored to be shopping defensemen and Vishnevski's name has come up.

Either one would be a nice surprise.

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11-16-2003, 02:20 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhopspensfan
to make a strong pitch for Vishnevski. We need another blueliner who can clear the front of the net.
According to another one of those "unnamed sources said" rumors [The fourthperiod claimed]:
There have been numerous reports
of late the Mighty Ducks defenseman
Vitali Vishnevski could soon pack his
bags as the team supposedly intends
to part with one of their many blueliners.
Vishnevski, who has only been benched
four times in his three full NHL seasons,
has been a healthy scratch five times.
ďEveryone who is not playing wants to
be out there,Ē Vishnevski told the Los
Angeles Times. ďYou want to get the
opportunity to get in there and stay in
there.Ē
The Chicago Blackhawks, Montreal
Canadiens and Washington Capitals are
supposedly paying close attention, while
the Vancouver Canucks may also have
interest.


Since Vishnevski is pretty young and "only" making approximately what Tarnstrom is . . . I was thinking what a nice chance to swing some people such as Tarnstrom, Straka, Bradley and Abid. But, of course, Holtzinger would have to be included also. [JUST BECAUSE]

I would like to see the five above in an excahnge with Anahiem and Vancouver for Vishnevski and either Umberger or Fedorov (Sergei's brother). Lower the payroll by $5.5 million also . . . that some of it could be invested in another D-man.

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11-16-2003, 04:41 PM
  #7
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I went over to the Anaheim board and asked them what they thought Vish would fetch. One poster said that Nemec or Chiodo would be a good return.

I've been thinking we should go after him for a while. He's young with tons of potential. And he's physical. He'd be a very solid addition to our blueline, and would get more of an opportunity to show what he can do with his increased role on our joke of a defense.

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Old
11-16-2003, 05:20 PM
  #8
DJ Spinoza
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Maybe he could be somewhat along the lines of Fata when he came and got his chance.

I'd trade either or both of them any day for him.

Unless they want Straka and Holzinger.:p

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Old
11-16-2003, 10:53 PM
  #9
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What CP really needís . . . to do is bring in the best people. Any Executive would say there only real job is to find the best people. If you want to rebuild and want your young players to thrive and learn CP has to give them the best teachers. Though I was of the opinion Francois Allaire should be brought in as the goaltending coach. Lorne Molleken has done nothing to deserve my wrath, (as of yet) and he dose bring with him a wealth of experience to help Eddy. Now I know finances affected CP ability to bring people in but still I think he has dropped the ball. CP has focused on drafting some top level D yet we have no one who can teach them how to thrive at the game. I give the league leaded shots against as and example for my reasoning. Iím still willing to give Eddy O his shot, but he needs to be surrounded by the best people. I think it was a mistake to keep Randy Hillier on as the defensive coach. He has as of yet to prove to me that he can handle the job. What the penguins need is a great defensive coach. Reading Russoís article in the Sun-Sentinel, I donít know if you can trade for an assistant coach. But if you can I would be willing to look into making a deal for Larry Robinson, even if it is short term. I am of the feeling Duddly is going to wait and bring in Tortorella after the season. Robinson has stated that he wants to teach. And I canít think of a better set of youngsters then the group CP has assembled. With like, Whitney, Welch, and Bissonnette and Lupaschuk Fernholm and Nemec on the horizon.

As far as the Question pertaining to this thread and acquiring Vitali Vishnevski, I have long since coveted Vishnevski he has excellent speed, is a great open ice hitter as well as has a heart of a warrior. He dose need work on his positional play as well as his reads. But he has the tools. The question is can he pull it all together. And to be honest with Hillier in charge of the D I doubt he would in the Burgh. In the last decade it has never been in question that they could bring in some underachievers forwards like Nedved, Straka, Lang, Kovelev and now Fata and turn them into top line players. Yet defensively I canít think of a single player who has come, and been the #1 or even #2 we needed. Kasper did and addable job trying to fill the role but he was undersized and overmatched. He was much better suited to be a role player / agitator. For all to often he was caught out of position, as well as out muscled in front of the net. And Dick Tarnstom flourished on the PP in between Lemieux and Kovelev, but heís not been the same since, and his defensive play can go unmentioned. But with out a mentor, I donít think Vitali will ever be the next Scott Steven the scout all clamed on his draft.

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11-17-2003, 04:51 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticalFan
What CP really needís . . . to do is bring in the best people. Any Executive would say there only real job is to find the best people.
There is that little thing you may have overlooked . . . that profit and loss thing that hangs over most GM's, don't you think? To put it out there like bringing in the right people is all is IMHO overly simplifying the duties.
I would think that most GM's know they have a fiduciary duty to shareholders. But they also have a fiduciary duty to "the players and other employees" that in many instances outweighs the duty to shareholders. This gets more involved and detailed if any company has been through a bankruptcy situation. The fiduciary duty does not obligate Patrick to make the right decisions, simply to make good faith, informed decisions with the intent of benefiting the organization.

Now, I could be wrong about the exact detail of how this actually takes place when coming out of the bankruptcy . . . Craig Patrick in his GM position (I think) became an officer of a company. With that, his highest duty was no longer to Mario Lemieux or to Ken Sawyer. And I would assume HE IS ALSO being held accountable like all other company's executives. So his position just isn't sitting around with a couple playstations making moves like we all think he can make (including me) . . . hiring and firing at will.

Quote:
If you want to rebuild and want your young players to thrive and learn CP has to give them the best teachers. Though I was of the opinion Francois Allaire should be brought in as the goaltending coach. Lorne Molleken has done nothing to deserve my wrath, (as of yet) and he dose bring with him a wealth of experience to help Eddy.
One of the key decisions made by the Penguins was to establish the WB/S Penguins. Before that there was no development system within the organization. It doesn't matter who's idea it was to do that, although it is generally accepted that it was Patrick and Lemieux's idea. They are only in their fifth year and IMO have been doing a lot better than anyone thought. And it appears like it is only going to get better. So, what's so wrong with that?

Quote:
I know finances affected CP ability to bring people in but still I think he has dropped the ball. CP has focused on drafting some top level D yet we have no one who can teach them how to thrive at the game. I give the league leaded shots against as and example for my reasoning. Iím still willing to give Eddy O his shot, but he needs to be surrounded by the best people.
This is a team in total transition and rebuilding process. We wanted to see the likes of Pushor, Jonsson, Moran, Laukkanen, Ference, Leroux and Wilson out of here . . . and they are. You realistically didn't expect much more than what we have seen, have you?

Quote:
I think it was a mistake to keep Randy Hillier on as the defensive coach. He has as of yet to prove to me that he can handle the job. What the penguins need is a great defensive coach. Reading Russoís article in the Sun-Sentinel, I donít know if you can trade for an assistant coach. But if you can I would be willing to look into making a deal for Larry Robinson, even if it is short term. I am of the feeling Duddly is going to wait and bring in Tortorella after the season. Robinson has stated that he wants to teach. And I canít think of a better set of youngsters then the group CP has assembled. With like, Whitney, Welch, and Bissonnette and Lupaschuk Fernholm and Nemec on the horizon.
Is Randy Hillier a bad defensive coach? Seriously, I really don't know. I guess a more direct question to you would be: What is he doing wrong? As to those that support Larry Robinson . . . I'll offer up this opinion. When Dave Taylor FIRED Larry Robinson it was because the players had TUNED HIM OUT . . . they played without emotion or commitment. That, to me isn't a great sign. To me, Larry Robinson finished his LA KING job with a losing record as head coach and only claim to fame (as a coach) was taking over the NJ Devils more than mid-way thru the season, after the team was in first place and the Devils went on to win the Cup. Some people also think that Robinson has a bigger interest in Polo ponies that being a coach in the NHL. Does he?

Quote:
As far as the Question pertaining to this thread and acquiring Vitali Vishnevski, I have long since coveted Vishnevski he has excellent speed, is a great open ice hitter as well as has a heart of a warrior. He dose need work on his positional play as well as his reads. But he has the tools. The question is can he pull it all together. And to be honest with Hillier in charge of the D I doubt he would in the Burgh.
As I said above, you could be correct in your SHOT at Hillier . . . but putting some substance to that SHOT would come across better than something that just flies in from left field.
Quote:
Yet defensively I canít think of a single player who has come, and been the #1 or even #2 we needed. Kasper did and addable job trying to fill the role but he was undersized and overmatched. He was much better suited to be a role player / agitator. For all to often he was caught out of position, as well as out muscled in front of the net. And Dick Tarnstom flourished on the PP in between Lemieux and Kovelev, but heís not been the same since, and his defensive play can go unmentioned. But with out a mentor, I donít think Vitali will ever be the next Scott Steven the scout all clamed on his draft.
Just so there is no misinterpretation here, I have no clue about Randy Hillier's ability as a coach . . . although I was never that impressed by him, as a player. So my opinion is rather neutral. Since this is mostly about Randy Hillier ability as a coach . . . have we really brought in a defenseman, under his tutoring . . . I hate the mentoring word, BTW . . . who was considered to be a #1 or #2? Especially since Randy Hillier has been the defensive coach? If I can recall correctly, I'm too lazy to look it up, the defensemen prior to Hillier in the organization were Skrbek, Rozsival, Melichar and Butenschon. AND Anyhow, the development process is supposed to begin in WB/S, isn't it?

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Old
11-17-2003, 07:05 AM
  #11
FanaticalFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutdacheez
that profit and loss thing that hangs over most GM's, don't you think?
No I don't aggree the GM is not the CEO Nor the CFO as a GM CP sole job is to put the best product on the ice for the money that he has been allocated. If what is better for the team in the long run the team is building from the blue line, as it appears by CP draft history in the past few year. he then needs to reallocate funds to bring in the best instuctor so the players he drafted can excel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kutdacheez
To put it out there like bringing in the right people is all is IMHO overly simplifying the duties.
I couldn't disagree more, as a small business owner bringing in the right people is the most important job. In my case one crash and I'm out of business so I have to make sure I have the best people whether they work in dispatch or on the line. Or whom I subcontract out to.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kutdacheez
Now, I could be wrong about the exact detail of how this actually takes place when coming out of the bankruptcy . . . Craig Patrick in his GM position (I think) became an officer of a company. With that, his highest duty was no longer to Mario Lemieux or to Ken Sawyer. And I would assume HE IS ALSO being held accountable like all other company's executives. So his position just isn't sitting around with a couple playstations making moves like we all think he can make (including me) . . . hiring and firing at will.
I have no doubt that he is held responsible, And I don't own a playstation or any game console.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kutdacheez
One of the key decisions made by the Penguins was to establish the WB/S Penguins. Before that there was no development system within the organization. It doesn't matter who's idea it was to do that, although it is generally accepted that it was Patrick and Lemieux's idea. They are only in their fifth year and IMO have been doing a lot better than anyone thought. And it appears like it is only going to get better. So, what's so wrong with that?
IF you think that GP was the best coach for the WB/S and the players developed to there potential there . . . well I don't know what to say to that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kutdacheez
This is a team in total transition and rebuilding process. We wanted to see the likes of Pushor, Jonsson, Moran, Laukkanen, Ference, Leroux and Wilson out of here . . . and they are. You realistically didn't expect much more than what we have seen, have you?
I applaud those move CP made and I don't expect much of a change in the standing, but when the coach said that he was implementing a defensive system and then our rookie goaltenders are constantly shelled with 35+ shots a game, I have to think something is not working.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kutdacheez
Is Randy Hillier a bad defensive coach? Seriously, I really don't know. I guess a more direct question to you would be: What is he doing wrong?
I don't know either I never met the man. All I know is that when I watch the penguins play and the defense is running around almost with out direction then I look at the opposition who looks to be in position almost by habit, they are in the lanes use blocking the passing lanes with there stick and seem to be almost a half step a head of the play not because they are all great players but in my opinion because the habits have been drilled into there players. Just as emergency procedures should be dilled into any pilot. I am in no way an expert in hockey, or coaches but I did have a good hockey coach once. I look at the Penguins and they are making some of the same mistakes I made. After my coach told me what I was doing wrong and how to better play the positon I learned and tried not to make the same mistake. Yet no one seem to be teaching the Penguins D how to play better, they appear to be just sent out to the wolves.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kutdacheez
As to those that support Larry Robinson . . . I'll offer up this opinion. When Dave Taylor FIRED Larry Robinson it was because the players had TUNED HIM OUT . . . they played without emotion or commitment. That, to me isn't a great sign. To me, Larry Robinson finished his LA KING job with a losing record as head coach and only claim to fame (as a coach) was taking over the NJ Devils more than mid-way thru the season, after the team was in first place and the Devils went on to win the Cup. Some people also think that Robinson has a bigger interest in Polo ponies that being a coach in the NHL. Does he?
I agree the Player did I think turn on Robinson it is my understanding that is because he is a players coach. I have reservations about the return to the country club type atmosphere that filled the Igloo in the past decade. But as an assistant and more importantly a mentor I think Robinson can bring in a whole new level. The finances dictate that the penguins will not be able to bring in a Stud Defensemen ala Stevens or Blake. But coaches are much cheaper and why not bring in in one of the best Defencemen in the game to bring some leadership especially one who loves to teach.

My opinions are just that Opinions. If I appeared judgmental in my first post it was not intential and only because I am a fan who wants to see the young players develop and succeed.

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Old
11-17-2003, 09:01 AM
  #12
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Vishnevski is already three times the Dman Cairns is while being much younger.

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11-17-2003, 09:51 AM
  #13
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im jsut not sure why Anaheim would consider trading him for as young as he is. he's been good in the past and can get better. plus he's relatively cheap considering

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11-18-2003, 03:16 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FanaticalFan
No I don't aggree the GM is not the CEO Nor the CFO as a GM CP sole job is to put the best product on the ice for the money that he has been allocated.
I may have overly done it by saying that MOST GM's . . . with Patrick, however, he, I believe, became an officer of the Penguins. With that responsibility also comes an accountability just like all other executives. When I said he isn't sitting around with a couple of playstations making these moves . . . I meant it in the context of having a freehand without regard to the bottom line and his budget. I think this may still be monitored by the bankruptcy court.

Quote:
I couldn't disagree more, as a small business owner bringing in the right people is the most important job. In my case one crash and I'm out of business so I have to make sure I have the best people whether they work in dispatch or on the line. Or whom I subcontract out to.
You again, have not understood what I said. When it comes to "decisions" people are right at the top . . . with others. That decision doesn't stand alone . . . not even with you. For example, if you brought in the right people at a price that you couldn't afford you would be out of business. That's a little bit of a spin move on me, Fanatical Fan . . . you claimed that "Any Executive would say their only real job is to find the best people." All I said was that IMHO your were over simplifing it.
I am a partner in we call a three year startup and we have had to leave two very good people go because of their financial demands. It happens.


Quote:
IF you think that GP was the best coach for the WB/S and the players developed to there potential there . . . well I don't know what to say to that.
A lot of stuff is done politically. I don't have a clue how Glen Patrick was doing. IMHO the press did a job on him . . . deserved or not. Again, all I said was that CP made a mistake by putting his brother into that position. He had to know that that nepotism thing would bite him in the ass sooner or later.


Quote:
when the coach said that he was implementing a defensive system and then our rookie goaltenders are constantly shelled with 35+ shots a game, I have to think something is not working.
It's not like a wound heals instantly. It heals in degrees. It's no guarantee that by being patient that the fruit of that will be sweet. That's were the trust part of it comes in. Trust that he (CP) made the right decision. Do you feel experienced enough to claim it's a wrong one already?



Quote:
no one seem to be teaching the Penguins D how to play better, they appear to be just sent out to the wolves.
Perception is reality.
If you have already concluded that Randy Hillier can't and isn't doing it . . . I dunno, you could be right. However, I don't think CP is afraid of bringing in top management talent as evidenced by his highly criticized move to hire both Bob Johnson and Scotty Bowman when they both could have had eyes on his job.

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Old
11-18-2003, 03:58 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariano
Vishnevski has been a frequent scratch. Don't you keep up with what is going on?

No, I guess not.
read my other post before you comment.

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Old
11-18-2003, 05:27 AM
  #16
kutdacheez
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Originally Posted by Raider Zero
read my other post before you comment.
Kung Fu's warning: Don't Feed the TROLLS.

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11-18-2003, 01:48 PM
  #17
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I thought for sure the first post would read:

"....money."



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