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Latendresse with Montreal this year?

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Old
09-08-2006, 10:15 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Is that because of their relative readiness to play or because of where there might be an opening due to Koivu's eye injury and Bonk's contract expiration at the end of the season?
The posts about contracts got me thinking about how any moves at this point create a domino effect. If Chipchura wows the staff in camp along with Lats [ yeah, lots of ifs], well maybe that has to happen. In terms of $, Bonk = Lats& Chipcura. Gainey must have a situation where a team not in cap hell would take the guy for a year in term for promised consideration at some point.

Truthfully, I think this is why none of this will happen, one move pushes the next,too much has to happen. Unless of course he forces the issue.

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09-08-2006, 11:28 AM
  #77
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If Latendresse has the same camp as he did last season,I think Carbonneau will make room for him and Gainey will make another trade a la Hossa last year.The man out would be Perezhogin IMO.I wish him the best of luck and if he plays that well again I hope they at least give him a 10 game tryout.If the kid deserves it let's give him the chance.Habs need to change from the old days.It's 2006 and kids make the NHL at 18 because they are good enough.Screw the contracts you gave 3 years ago and play the players that wanna play

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09-08-2006, 11:32 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4 View Post
IMO the contract is a non-factor.

That $42+ million you cited already includes the salaries of Kostitsyn, Perezhogin, Danis and Cote, the Habs also get some salary relief from the Cube's absence, so there is Cap space if required. Add in the fact the Brisson has a client who still has a year of Q eligibility and I don't see Latendresse getting a rookie max contract (with bonuses).
The number I quoted includes Kostitsyn, but certainly not Danis or Cote. (Why would I include them???)

For our 23-man default roster (with Kostitsyn as the 23rd man), the cap-hit payroll is $42,277,140.

We may be able to temporarily replace Bouillon if he is injured long enough, but that is not assured. Last I heard, he was due back around the time that the bona fide long term injury exception would kick in (24 days or 10 games). So I don't see any practical relief there, even if turns out that a short temporary window opens up.

I do agree that Latendresse probably shouldn't receive bonuses. I do believe that he will command the rookie max, which in itself isn't a problem, since it's only a little bit more than Kostitsyn's cap hit. It would only be bonuses that would be a problem.

The Habs have never given bonuses before (Chipchura got the max, but no bonuses as the most recent comparable), and I do not believe they will be remotely willing to give them to Latendresse. That means it will come down to the Latendresse/Brisson camp to decide if they will push for them or not. If they push for them, they will fail and Latendresse will not be with the team. However, they do have ample reason to ask for them. Here are some recent entry level contract figures for some players, including bonuses:

Gilbert Brule, CLB - $1,246,667
Mark Stuart, BOS - $1,579,900
Andrew Ladd, CAR - $1,834,200
Eric Nystrom, CAL - $1,500,600
Michael Blunden, CHI - $1,583,333
Cam Barker, CHI - $2,768,613
Al Montoya, NYR - $1,834,200
Matt Carle, SJ - $1,367,400
Bobby Ryan, ANA - $2,200,000
David McKee, ANA - $1,912,500
Benoit Pouliot, MIN - $1,700,000
Ryan O'Marra, NYI - $1,250,000
Bill Thomas, PHX - $1,700,000
Devin Setoguchi, SJ - $1,275,000
Marek Schwarz, STL - $1,834,200
Luc Bourdon, VAN - $1,350,000
Phil Kessel, BOS - $2,300,000 (last estimate I heard)

Of course, there are a wide variety of different cases among these examples, from top-5 draft picks to unrestricted college free agents, but there are also some draft picks from Latendresse's draft vicinity (Blunden, Vlasic) who have received bonuses. There are of course many more entry level signees who received the max with no bonuses, like our own Chipchura.

It all basically depends on what Latendresse/Brisson want to do. They can argue that a 19-year old Latendresse who makes the team, and who management has raved about ranking in their personal top-10 for his draft, deserves a bonus structure similar to that of some of the other high-end 1st round picks who are either just making it now or still haven't necessarily made their teams. They know Latendresse has a huge profile in Montreal. They also hold the hammer that the Habs could lose his rights after this year if he isn't signed, which would be a PR disaster for the Habs. It would certainly be well within their rights to shoot for a bonus-laden deal. Whether they ultimately do or not, who knows.

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09-08-2006, 11:47 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by As the Glorious Weep View Post
I hope Latendresse plays next year and is a star: that way I wont have to listen to those 110% guys whining about the absence of French Canadian stars on the habs anymore.

Your cat is the cutest cat I've ever seen.

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09-08-2006, 11:58 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
The number I quoted includes Kostitsyn, but certainly not Danis or Cote. (Why would I include them???)

For our 23-man default roster (with Kostitsyn as the 23rd man), the cap-hit payroll is $42,277,140.
I checked the salary numbers on TSN, which included Danis & Cote (along with Kostitsyn) and it came out to $42.7 million (and change). The exact Cap number is debatable, but it's really not relevant, as we both seem to agree that absent bonuses, the Habs would have the space if they wanted to sign Latendresse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I do agree that Latendresse probably shouldn't receive bonuses. I do believe that he will command the rookie max, which in itself isn't a problem, since it's only a little bit more than Kostitsyn's cap hit. It would only be bonuses that would be a problem.

The Habs have never given bonuses before (Chipchura got the max, but no bonuses as the most recent comparable), and I do not believe they will be remotely willing to give them to Latendresse. That means it will come down to the Latendresse/Brisson camp to decide if they will push for them or not. If they push for them, they will fail and Latendresse will not be with the team. However, they do have ample reason to ask for them. Here are some recent entry level contract figures for some players, including bonuses:

Gilbert Brule, CLB - $1,246,667
Mark Stuart, BOS - $1,579,900
Andrew Ladd, CAR - $1,834,200
Eric Nystrom, CAL - $1,500,600
Michael Blunden, CHI - $1,583,333
Cam Barker, CHI - $2,768,613
Al Montoya, NYR - $1,834,200
Matt Carle, SJ - $1,367,400
Bobby Ryan, ANA - $2,200,000
David McKee, ANA - $1,912,500
Benoit Pouliot, MIN - $1,700,000
Ryan O'Marra, NYI - $1,250,000
Bill Thomas, PHX - $1,700,000
Devin Setoguchi, SJ - $1,275,000
Marek Schwarz, STL - $1,834,200
Luc Bourdon, VAN - $1,350,000
Phil Kessel, BOS - $2,300,000 (last estimate I heard)

Of course, there are a wide variety of different cases among these examples, from top-5 draft picks to unrestricted college free agents, but there are also some draft picks from Latendresse's draft vicinity (Blunden, Vlasic) who have received bonuses. There are of course many more entry level signees who received the max with no bonuses, like our own Chipchura.

It all basically depends on what Latendresse/Brisson want to do. They can argue that a 19-year old Latendresse who makes the team, and who management has raved about ranking in their personal top-10 for his draft, deserves a bonus structure similar to that of some of the other high-end 1st round picks who are either just making it now or still haven't necessarily made their teams. They know Latendresse has a huge profile in Montreal. They also hold the hammer that the Habs could lose his rights after this year if he isn't signed, which would be a PR disaster for the Habs. It would certainly be well within their rights to shoot for a bonus-laden deal. Whether they ultimately do or not, who knows.
I don't disagree that Brisson can make a case for bonuses, but given the comparables you listed (and the contract Chipchura signed), it's not a strong case. Latendresse despite the feeding frenzy surrounding him was not a 1st rounder, nevermind a top 5 pick. Blunden got paid a "Chicago" premium and Vlasic is overpaid slightly (but as a d-man that happens). If Brisson/Lats hold out for bonuses, he's back in the Q and he never recoups the 850K he'd receive if he signed for the entry level max.


Last edited by habfan4: 09-08-2006 at 12:04 PM.
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Old
09-08-2006, 12:20 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4 View Post
I checked the salary numbers on TSN, which included Danis & Cote (along with Kostitsyn) and it came out to $42.7 million (and change). The exact Cap number is debatable, but it's really not relevant,
Well, it is relevant, because if you used those bogus TSN numbers it sounds like you'd get a much different picture. And it's actually not debateable anymore, since the NHL's own list came out. Look at the thief50's sticky, I think he basically had it right save for a minor discrepancy on Begin's money. Then add Kostitsyn at $785,333 and you have the "undebateable" number.
Quote:
as we both seem to agree that absent bonuses, the Habs would have the space if they wanted to sign Latendresse.
Incidentally, I do believe that the CBA allows a "cushion" of 7.5% for unattained bonuses, so the team technically probably would still have space as that would be $3.3M overhead on the cap. Whether Gainey would want to roll the dice on those bonuses being unmet or whether he'd want to accede to setting the precedent or not are other matters.
Quote:
I don't disagree that Brisson can make a case for bonuses, but given the comparables you listed (and the contract Chipchura signed), it's not a strong case. Latendresse despite the feeding frenzy surrounding him was not a 1st rounder, nevermind a top 5 pick. Blunden got paid a "Chicago" premium and Vlasic is overpaid slightly (but as a d-man that happens). If Brisson/Lats hold out for bonuses, he's back in the Q and he never recoups the 850K he'd receive if the signed for the entry level max.
Well, hence all the conditionals used in my posts in this thread. (What's a "Chicago premium"?? ). If I was running the Latendresse/Brisson show, I'd consider the Habs situation, I'd take the rookie max, and I'd take at least a minor swing at getting some bonus space in there, but not push my luck. Something that comes out around the $1.25M comparables (O'Marra, Brule, Bourdon) still wouldn't put the team over $43M and couldn't be shot down purely with a cap-sans-cushion argument.

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09-08-2006, 12:36 PM
  #82
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Honestly, I don't think Lats will be a part of the team this season. If Bulis and Zednik had not been replaced with Samsonov and Johnson respectfully, I might have thought otherwise. I believe he's got about a 30% chance at making the main roster.

Also, this is my first post and I'm happy to be here.

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09-08-2006, 01:01 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Krymzyn View Post
Honestly, I don't think Lats will be a part of the team this season. If Bulis and Zednik had not been replaced with Samsonov and Johnson respectfully, I might have thought otherwise. I believe he's got about a 30% chance at making the main roster.

Also, this is my first post and I'm happy to be here.
78 % of me welcomes you. Sorry but the other 22% is offended by your lack of vowels.

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09-08-2006, 01:01 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Well, it is relevant, because if you used those bogus TSN numbers it sounds like you'd get a much different picture. And it's actually not debateable anymore, since the NHL's own list came out. Look at the thief50's sticky, I think he basically had it right save for a minor discrepancy on Begin's money. Then add Kostitsyn at $785,333 and you have the "undebateable" number.
The difference between thief50's numbers (who I have no problem admitting are more accurate than my own) and those I put together in a few minutes (taking into account the removal of Danis and Cote from TSN's figures) is not enough to give me a different picture. It would appear that all of this accounting fails to convince either us that the Habs are incapable of fitting Lats under their salary cap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Incidentally, I do believe that the CBA allows a "cushion" of 7.5% for unattained bonuses, so the team technically probably would still have space as that would be $3.3M overhead on the cap. Whether Gainey would want to roll the dice on those bonuses being unmet or whether he'd want to accede to setting the precedent or not are other matters.
Said bonuses would count against next years cap. A point which is all but moot, as my understanding of the bonuses structure for entry level contracts, is that cream puff bonuses are a thing of the past. That is, the Canadiens could not offer Lats an extra 500K per annum on the basis of games played. These "attainable bonuses" now fall along the lines of being top three in team scoring or being nominated for the Hart/Calder/Vezina etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Well, hence all the conditionals used in my posts in this thread. (What's a "Chicago premium"?? ). If I was running the Latendresse/Brisson show, I'd consider the Habs situation, I'd take the rookie max, and I'd take at least a minor swing at getting some bonus space in there, but not push my luck. Something that comes out around the $1.25M comparables (O'Marra, Brule, Bourdon) still wouldn't put the team over $43M and couldn't be shot down purely with a cap-sans-cushion argument.
The Chicago premium is what the Hawks have to pay to rush a guys development onto a team that is dreadful and has abysmal management. The rest of your rebuttal, I have no problem with.


Last edited by habfan4: 09-08-2006 at 01:13 PM.
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09-08-2006, 01:10 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
78 % of me welcomes you. Sorry but the other 22% is offended by your lack of vowels.
I don't understand your argument, mcphee. "Krymzyn" = 7 letters, 2 of which are clearly vowels in this context. That's 28.571428% vowels. By contrast, the alphabet is only 23.076923% vowels. Even if the standard rate of vowel usage in most english sentences goes well above that random 23.076923% mark, I don't know if user names should be held to the same standards as diction.

Krymzyn.

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09-08-2006, 01:18 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I don't understand your argument, mcphee. "Krymzyn" = 7 letters, 2 of which are clearly vowels in this context. That's 28.571428% vowels. By contrast, the alphabet is only 23.076923% vowels. Even if the standard rate of vowel usage in most english sentences goes well above that random 23.076923% mark, I don't know if user names should be held to the same standards as diction.

Krymzyn.
Sure, hang me with the converted 'y'. Cheap shot.

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09-08-2006, 01:25 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by habfan4 View Post
The difference between thief50's numbers (who I have no problem admitting are more accurate than my own) and those I put together in a few minutes (taking into account the removal of Danis and Cote from TSN's figures) is not enough to give me a different picture.
Well, presumably it is different by $1M, anyway, since you argued that my numbers included Danis and Cote, and IMO $1M would be a significant difference towards being able to accommodate bonuses for Latendresse. Anyhoo...
Quote:
It would appear that all of this accounting fails to convince either us that the Habs are incapable of fitting Lats under their salary cap.
Agreed. Violently!!!!
Quote:
Said bonuses would count against next years cap.
(if they went over this year's limit)
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A point which is all but moot, as my understanding of the bonuses structure for entry level contracts, is that cream puff bonuses are a thing of the past. That is, the Canadiens could not offer Lats an extra 500K per annum on the basis of games played. These "attainable bonuses" now fall along the lines of being top three in team scoring or being nominated for the Hart/Calder/Vezina etc...
Right. Latendresse may think that 20 goals or top-6 minutes or a spot on the All-Rookie team or Calder nomination, etc, are somewhat attainable, but there's nothing that says we have to give him the max allowable payouts for those things either. I would say as long as his contract comes in under $1.5M max, then it really isn't a significant concern either way. That keeps us at $43M.

I would imagine Gainey would be even more reluctant to set the precedent of allowing bonuses than he would be to risk eating into his cap cushion with unlikely-to-be-attained bonuses, though.
Quote:
The Chicago premium is what the Hawks have to play to rush a guys development onto a team that is dreadful and has abysmal management. The rest of your rebuttal, I have no problem with.
Not sure if that "Chicago premium" really applies to Blunden, then, as the Hawks have quite a lot of good prospects like him below the threshold of rush-into-development, but you can't trump the abysmal managment card, I guess. I could see Gainey preferring to be labelled as an imperturbable hardass on entry-level negotiations rather than risk putting himself into the dreadful and abysmal management category, though, so it comes to the same thing.

Does that mean we agreed the contract is a factor on his making the team or not, then?

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09-08-2006, 01:29 PM
  #88
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Sure, hang me with the converted 'y'. Cheap shot.
Hey, I'm off to Ricoh for the rookie tourney in a few minutes, so I thought I'd kill time with as many cheap shots and anal arguments as possible in the meantime. I'm actually getting all tingly about seeing the first game of the year. Woohoo.

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09-08-2006, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Hey, I'm off to Ricoh for the rookie tourney in a few minutes, so I thought I'd kill time with as many cheap shots and anal arguments as possible in the meantime. I'm actually getting all tingly about seeing the first game of the year. Woohoo.
Have fun. Ricoh's the one on the old CNE{?] site isn't it ? I saw Dylan there a few years ago. Nice place.

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09-08-2006, 01:35 PM
  #90
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Have fun. Ricoh's the one on the old CNE{?] site isn't it ? I saw Dylan there a few years ago. Nice place.
Yup, it's a great place to watch hockey, IMO, not a bad seat in the house (that I've ever found, anyway). Used to be it just made me appreciate the unbalanced AHL schedule that brought Hamilton into town half a dozen times in a season, but now that the rookie tourney is here too... megabonus!

Game reports coming by midnight... then we'll see whether this Latendresse fellow is worth all that bonus money he's holding out for or not.

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09-08-2006, 01:41 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Does that mean we agreed the contract is a factor on his making the team or not, then?
I think it means we both agreed and agreed to disagree. We both acknowledge there is cap space for Lats, and it appears that we disagree on the effects of bonuses on said contract (or on the negotiations thereof).

See you at Ricoh, I'll be there for the evening game.

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09-08-2006, 03:54 PM
  #92
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He's ready ...

His skating REALLY improve

He's passing hability improve

He's deke are amazing

STRONGER

His shot is STRONG !!

Can't wait to see him sign

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09-08-2006, 04:02 PM
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Actually, I think everyone overates Latendresse's chances to make the team. He's still eligible for Junior and there's no need to rush him to the bigs, at least not in a limited 4th line or pressbox role, and waste a year of seniority on him. He still has a lot to learn and must improve on his consistency.

My point about Chipchura is that he's definitely ahead of Latendresse in the pecking order. Much more accomplished player than Latendresse at this point.

This being said, I really don't think either player should make the team this season. The only eception would be that Chipchura gets a few callups during the year during injuries to other players.

Kostitsyn has the advantage over all the "blue chip" prospects at forward. He's got a few seasons under his belt with the Dogs and now's the time to see what he can for the Habs, even if it's the same type of role Perezhogin played last year.

If Andrei isn't the option, and Carbonneau is just looking for a super part time player, he can go with eiher a Lapierre or Ferland option as the 14th man.

Grabovsky, well I don't see him as being ahead of Kostitsyn at this point.

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09-08-2006, 04:15 PM
  #94
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Specially since a recent FIRST round draft choice Phil Kessel just signed 3 years NO bonus.
BG wrote it in his post, but just to confirm Kessel did get bonuses and lots of 'em:

http://www.boston.com/sports/article...l_with_bruins/

Kessel's contract includes performance bonuses, which are categorized as Individual A and Individual B. Individual A includes bonuses for scoring at least 20 goals, at least 60 points, and for making the All-Rookie team. A rookie can earn a maximum of $850,000 per season in Individual A bonuses.

The 6-foot, 189-pound Kessel could also earn Individual B bonuses if, for example, he wins the Hart Trophy (MVP) or finishes in the top 10 in the league in scoring. If he achieves his bonuses, Kessel could earn approximately $2.5 million each season, which would count against the Bruins' salary cap ($44 million in 2006-07). Last season, first-year stars Alexander Ovechkin of the Capitals and Sidney Crosby of the Penguins reached Individual B bonuses.


-------

I still don't hope the Habs give Latendresse such bonuses...you can't start creating a trend of giving any 2nd-3rd-4th round draft pick who ends up being a great pick first round money when all of your recent firsts signed deals without bonuses...

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09-08-2006, 04:16 PM
  #95
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Here is what we have for wingers as of today already holding down a spot:

Kovalev, Samsanov
Higgins, Ryder
Perezhogin, Johnson
Begin, Murray

I'm going to assume that Habs management feels that Lats will not benefit from playing on the 4th line or sitting stretches in the press box.

Based on that assumption, he has two ways of making this team:

ONE:
to best one of Kovalev, Samsanov, Higgins, Ryder, Perezhogin or Johnson.

OR

TWO:
A trade must occur to open a spot up. This doesn't even take into account Kostitsyn's own battle to make the team (basically facing the same problem as Lats and competing for the same spot).

To me, I see option TWO as his (and Kostitsyn's) best chance at making the big club. Otherwise, it would be best for him to return to Junior.

Just my two cents.

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09-08-2006, 04:50 PM
  #96
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I want to see Gui on the 4th line with Murray and Begin for 10 games and then send him back to junior. Give him a taste and let him go off and destroy the Q - and it won't even count as a contract year!

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09-09-2006, 07:42 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big_habs_fan View Post
Here is what we have for wingers as of today already holding down a spot:

Kovalev, Samsanov
Higgins, Ryder
Perezhogin, Johnson
Begin, Murray

I'm going to assume that Habs management feels that Lats will not benefit from playing on the 4th line or sitting stretches in the press box.

Based on that assumption, he has two ways of making this team:

ONE:
to best one of Kovalev, Samsanov, Higgins, Ryder, Perezhogin or Johnson.

OR

TWO:
A trade must occur to open a spot up. This doesn't even take into account Kostitsyn's own battle to make the team (basically facing the same problem as Lats and competing for the same spot).

To me, I see option TWO as his (and Kostitsyn's) best chance at making the big club. Otherwise, it would be best for him to return to Junior.

Just my two cents.
i think that Ryder's the one who has to go, he's too one-dimensional and doesn't have the same talent or speed as the rest of the guys on our team. Samsonov, even though i'm happy we finally signed a real free agent, wasn't really necessare with all of our propects just waiting for a chance, takes more salary then a rookie too

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09-09-2006, 08:30 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Guillaume the great! View Post
i think that Ryder's the one who has to go, he's too one-dimensional and doesn't have the same talent or speed as the rest of the guys on our team. Samsonov, even though i'm happy we finally signed a real free agent, wasn't really necessare with all of our propects just waiting for a chance, takes more salary then a rookie too
Yeah, you're right. Replacing our 30 goal scorers with rookies is the definately the way to go.

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09-09-2006, 08:54 AM
  #99
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Yeah, you're right. Replacing our 30 goal scorers with rookies is the definately the way to go.
most of them will become 30 goal scorers, remember what Ryder did right before we got eliminated, he has no hands and he's slow, no way i'm letting Higgins, Kovy, Samsonov or Perezhogin go before him. Higgins is a garbage goal man himself so Rytder woudn't be a lost at all imo, then you add someone as talented Kostitsyn or someone as strong as Latendresse when we have a new weapon in our gameplan. Pieree Dagenais had 19 goals in 55 games or something like that and Ribeiro had a 65 points year 2 years ago, but there still players you don't win anyhting with

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09-09-2006, 10:44 AM
  #100
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Any chance the fact that you're a free agent after 7 years will affect Gainey?

I think this is a good reason to push back their NHL career an extra year.

I think it's much safer for an organisation to wait a year and have an extra year at 27/28 years old instead of having him as a 18/19 year old.

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