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Old
09-09-2006, 03:21 PM
  #26
gobolt7
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I just wated to check in as one of the few members of the Tampa branch of Giant fans. I cant wait for tomorrow night. I look forward to stopping in here as the season gets going.

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Old
09-09-2006, 03:52 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
My favorite type of response. You are talking about the meanest, nastiest, hardest hitting defense in the entire league. If you are pointing to the pre-season, it means nothing. Under Spurrier, they were 4-0 and averaged 34 points per game. During preseason, they did not use a single offensive or defensive formation that will be used during the regular season, a Gibbs trade mark. Williams blitzes on virtually every down. I did not see a single blitz during preseason. None of Saunders' offensive formatiosn were used.

Aside from QB, they match up with the Giants at every single position and exceed them on a good amount. The secondary is a collection of headhunters, with Taylor, Archuletta & Rodgers. Oh, and Springs is the other member. The offensive line is amongst the biggest and meanest. Brunell is the sole weak link. But the 'Skins can win despite him.
Just remember, that after the debacle at the Meadowlands, the 'Skins dominated at FedEx. They beat the Giants every which way, on both sides of the ball. The only reason that the score was not worse, was becuase it was such a huge lead by the half, that Gibbs mercifully handed the ball off on every 2nd half possession.

I am not saying that the Giants are bad. On the contrary, both they and Dallas are very good teams. However, neither is better than the 'Skins. All 3 teams will be in playoff fights and division lead fights.
Wow.

First of all, please do not brush off Brunell like it was nothing. Quarterback is the most important position on a team, and the Redskins have a bad one. Sorry, your team is not good enough to "win despite him".

The Redskins match up the giants in every position? Is this a joke? The Giants have a better Quarterback, a better and more versatile Runningback (who's healthy btw, unlike yours), and a slightly better Tight End. The wide receiving corps are similar in ability (Burress, Toomer, Moss, Carter v. Moss, Lloyd, Randle El, Patten) as are the offensive lines. Redskins have the edge with their receiver depth while the Giants have the edge on the offensive line with their line depth.

Your front seven on defense doesn't even compare to the Giants. Strahan, Umenyiora, Pierce, Arrington (not to mention the LB depth as well as guys like Kiawanuka and Tuck). Marcus Washington, Lemar Marshall, Andre Carter, Cornelius Griffen somehow compares to that? On paper, yeah, the Redskins do have a better secondary than the Giants. However, stop acting like Washington is this some "mean" team who no one wants to face. The Giants have headhunters of their own in the secondary with the likes of Gibril Wilson and Will Demps. Last I checked Springs will be out for a couple more weeks too.

Um, what point are you trying to make about last years game? Yeah, the Redskins beat the Giants pretty bad. It's not like the Giants didn't shut them out 36-0 several weeks earlier.

Yes, the Giants are better than the Redskins.


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Old
09-09-2006, 04:44 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
You mean much like the Giants?
the thing i've noticed about the Giants is that over the last 10 years or so, they always seem to follow up a great season with a lousy season (and vice versa). They have always seemed to play best when everyone had low expectations/ they were the underdogs, and wilt when great things were expected. It's almost been as if they can't deal with prosperity.

I was just trying to put some good natured antogonism out there with my first post.. Two of my close friends in college were Redskins fans (we used to have some epic match-ups on Tecmo Super Bowl on the old SNES), but they don't live anywhere near here, so nowadays I don't have anyone nearby to antogonize - in good fun, of course.

I still do have high hopes for the G-men this year.

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Old
09-09-2006, 05:20 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voros19 View Post
First of all, please do not brush off Brunell like it was nothing. Quarterback is the most important position on a team, and the Redskins have a bad one. Sorry, your team is not good enough to "win despite him".
Evidence has shown to the contrary. The 'Skins have a dominating defense, a great running game, and an wonderfull offensive line. All Brunell has to do is manage the game.
Quote:
The Redskins match up the giants in every position? Is this a joke?
No
Quote:
The Giants have a better Quarterback
Yes, they do.
Quote:
a better and more versatile Runningback (who's healthy btw, unlike yours)
Sorry, but Tiki is not better than Portis. At best, they are a draw. Portis is missing all of one game. Not a bit deal. However, Tiki has more mileage on his tires than Porits does.
Quote:
and a slightly better Tight End
Did I miss the part when Shockey did better than Cooley last year? Shockey drops more big passes than the catches. Until his perfomance catches up with his mouth, he is good, but hardly elite.
Quote:
The wide receiving corps are similar in ability (Burress, Toomer, Moss, Carter v. Moss, Lloyd, Randle El, Patten) as are the offensive lines.
Based of what? The 'Skins line is better all-around than the Giants. I would take Santana Moss ahead of any Giant reciever. At this point in their careers, I would take Randle El ahead of Toomer.
Quote:
Redskins have the edge with their receiver depth while the Giants have the edge on the offensive line with their line depth.
Depth-wise, the Giants have the advantage on the O-lines. Not ability wise. Not even close, IMO.
Quote:
Your front seven on defense doesn't even compare to the Giants. Strahan, Umenyiora, Pierce, Arrington (not to mention the LB depth as well as guys like Kiawanuka and Tuck). Marcus Washington, Lemar Marshall, Andre Carter, Cornelius Griffen somehow compares to that?
At least try judge without blue-tinted sunglasses. I know all about Arrington. I loved it when the 'Skins drafted him. BUT he has yet to live up to the billing. There is a reason that the 'Skins had the 2nd best defense in the league last year, and Lavaar spent most of it on the bench. You'll love him when he gets a big hit. You'll hate him when he goes for a big hit and a) misses and the running back runs by him for a 30 yeard gain b) exposes the secondary for a big gain (I think that the Giants are still looking for Santana Moss).

He is being moved to weak-side line backer. Now that means that you are comparing him to Marcus Washington. Washington has been the best linebacker in DC since he arrived. I will take him ahead of Arrington. I will also take Griffin ahead of any of the Giant tackels. Pierce I know all about as well. And him and Marshall are a toss-up. Where the Giants have an advantage is at DE. However, seeing as how Jansen shut down Strahan with 2 broken thumbs last year, I will take my chances.
Quote:
However, stop acting like Washington is this some "mean" team who no one wants to face.
Ask the Eagles recievers. Ask the Cowboy recievers. THey are the meanest, hardest hitting defense in the league. And Archuletta only adds to it. NO ONE hits harder than Taylor, save for possibly Roy Williams.
Quote:
The Giants have headhunters of their own in the secondary with the likes of Gibril Wilson and Will Demps.
I will take Sean Taylor over Will Demps every day of the week. Ditto for Archuletta & Rodgers. Sorry, but as a whole, the Giant secondary does not come close to hitting like the 'Skins.
Quote:
Last I checked Springs will be out for a couple more weeks too.
Best thing about Williams is that his defense makes the players, not the other way around. Last year the Redskins defense was riddled with injuries, and they still dominated with waiver wire pickups and various 7th round picks.
Quote:
Um, what point are you trying to make about last years game? Yeah, the Redskins beat the Giants pretty bad. It's not like the Giants didn't shut them out 36-0 several weeks earlier
The point is that once the Redskins made adjustments (that Pierce could not know about since he is the one that exposed the Redskins plans), the Giants could not match it.
Quote:
Yes, the Giants are better than the Redskins.
No, they are not.

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Old
09-09-2006, 05:21 PM
  #30
True Blue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bk3nj View Post
I was just trying to put some good natured antogonism out there with my first post.. Two of my close friends in college were Redskins fans (we used to have some epic match-ups on Tecmo Super Bowl on the old SNES), but they don't live anywhere near here, so nowadays I don't have anyone nearby to antogonize - in good fun, of course.
Oh, my goodness. Tecmo. Bo Jackson was unstoppable in that game.

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Old
09-09-2006, 05:51 PM
  #31
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I can't believe that TB is being as big of a homer as he is right now.

I'm sorry, man, but you're responses are a bit ridiculous. I'll let you live in dream world right now, though.

We'll see what happens when the season starts. I don't know a soul in the world (including hardcore Skins fans) who'd take the Skins over the G-Men right now, though.

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Old
09-09-2006, 06:31 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Evidence has shown to the contrary. The 'Skins have a dominating defense, a great running game, and an wonderfull offensive line. All Brunell has to do is manage the game.
What evidence? Yes, the Redskins had a nice run at the end of last season. A lot of teams have good runs however - Minnesota, for example. Are they any good?

Quote:
Sorry, but Tiki is not better than Portis. At best, they are a draw. Portis is missing all of one game. Not a bit deal. However, Tiki has more mileage on his tires than Porits does.
Explain to me how Tiki isn't better than Portis. He's had more rushing yards and touchdowns the past two seasons (despite being behind an inferior line, according to you), is a much better receiver, and is fairly deft at picking up the blitz. Tiki isn't like other backs with his age. He really didn't start getting serious touches until 2002. He has less mileage on him than you think.

Quote:
Did I miss the part when Shockey did better than Cooley last year? Shockey drops more big passes than the catches. Until his perfomance catches up with his mouth, he is good, but hardly elite.
Apparently you did. If you watched him at all last year, you would have noticed his drops went down considerably. What makes Cooley elite then? Say what you want, but he isn't the receiving threat Shockey is (defense do not key in on cooley like they do on Shockey, don't even argue it), and his blocking leaves much to be desired.

Quote:
Based of what? The 'Skins line is better all-around than the Giants. I would take Santana Moss ahead of any Giant reciever. At this point in their careers, I would take Randle El ahead of Toomer.

Depth-wise, the Giants have the advantage on the O-lines. Not ability wise. Not even close, IMO.
Of course you would take Santana over any Giants receiver. The fact it's very close between Santana and Plaxico. As defenses began to key in on Moss last year, he had a huge drop off in production. Both Plaxico and Moss have their strengts and weaknesses, and it's close between the two. What justification would you have for taking Randle El above Toomer, I must ask? Toomer has gotten more yards and receptions over the past two seasons, despite his age. I don't think Lloyd is that good, despite his occasional acrobatic grab. He accumulated those yards and receptions as the #1 guy in SF, we'll see how is production is as a #2/#3. Sinorice Moss is obviously a wild card. Tim Carter, if healthy, is as good as David Patten, but of course, Carter is never healthy, so edge to Patten.

How isn't the ability on the offensive line close? The Giants have a very underrated offensive line that is a good cohesive unit. Snee is pro-bowl material, and Diehl is underrated. The only real question mark on the line is Petigout's back.

[quote]At least try judge without blue-tinted sunglasses. I know all about Arrington. I loved it when the 'Skins drafted him. BUT he has yet to live up to the billing. There is a reason that the 'Skins had the 2nd best defense in the league last year, and Lavaar spent most of it on the bench. You'll love him when he gets a big hit. You'll hate him when he goes for a big hit and a) misses and the running back runs by him for a 30 yeard gain b) exposes the secondary for a big gain (I think that the Giants are still looking for Santana Moss).

He is being moved to weak-side line backer. Now that means that you are comparing him to Marcus Washington. Washington has been the best linebacker in DC since he arrived. I will take him ahead of Arrington. I will also take Griffin ahead of any of the Giant tackels. Pierce I know all about as well. And him and Marshall are a toss-up. Where the Giants have an advantage is at DE. However, seeing as how Jansen shut down Strahan with 2 broken thumbs last year, I will take my chances.[quote]

You'll take Marcus Washington ahead of Arrington? I don't know much about Washington, but if Arrington comes back well from his knee injury, he'll return to perennial pro-bowl form. I really would like to go to an objective source and see who people would prefer on their team, Washington or Arrington.

A toss-up between Marshall and Pierce? Are you kidding? Pierce was the Giants MVP on defense last season. Take a look at the rushing yard stats when Pierce was in the lineup and when he wasn't. No way is Marshall better than Pierce, nor is he as good as Pierce.

Jansen shutdown Strahan in a game. How does that factor into this argument at all?

Quote:
Ask the Eagles recievers. Ask the Cowboy recievers. THey are the meanest, hardest hitting defense in the league. And Archuletta only adds to it. NO ONE hits harder than Taylor, save for possibly Roy Williams.
How is this a viable argument? Ask the Eagles and Cowboys receivers? Meanest, hardest hitting defense in the league? NO ONE hits harder than Taylor? You come off like an ignorant homer here.

Quote:
I will take Sean Taylor over Will Demps every day of the week. Ditto for Archuletta & Rodgers. Sorry, but as a whole, the Giant secondary does not come close to hitting like the 'Skins.
Ok, that's great that you will. I would take Taylor above Demps too. However, yes, the Giants secondary does come close to Redskins in hitting. Maybe not quite as good, but Wilson and Demps (did you watch the Jets pre-season game?) are very good hitters. Besides, since when does hitting qualify a defense as good or bad?

There is one 't' in Archuleta, btw.

Quote:
The point is that once the Redskins made adjustments (that Pierce could not know about since he is the one that exposed the Redskins plans), the Giants could not match it.
The Redskins made adjustments? How about the Giants just plain sucked and the Redskins played well? Pierce didn't even play in the second game against the Redskins. Even if the Redskins somehow made a gameplan that the Giants just couldn't compete with, which they didn't, how does that have any relevance as to who is better this season?

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Old
09-09-2006, 06:44 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Prescription View Post
I can't believe that TB is being as big of a homer as he is right now.
To you I am being a homer, to me I am viewing it as it is.
Quote:
I'm sorry, man, but you're responses are a bit ridiculous. I'll let you live in dream world right now, though.
What is ridiculous? The following is at BEST the scenario:
QB: Manning>Brunell
RB: Tiki>Portis (even though I do not believe it to be true, IMO it is a toss-up)
WR: Moss/Randel El/Lloyd>Burress/Toomer (Don't believe me? Just look at the stats)
TE: Shockey>Cooley (Even though the stats will tell you different)
O-Line: 'Skins>Giants (Sorry, but the 'Skins starting 5 are better)
D-Line: Giants>'Skins (the Giants have the advantage at DE, the 'Skins at DT)
LB's: Giants='Skins (Sorry, but Pierce is not better than Marshall. And Arrington is not better than Washington. Potential and reality are two different things).
CB's: Skins>Giants (Springs & Rodgers are better than whomever the Giants throw out there)
FS & SS: Skins>Giants (again Taylor and Archuletta are better than whomever the Giants throw out)

Where is the fantasy? Pray tell point it out. You are calling me a homer, but are lauding the Giants as the best. At least I can call a spade a spade and say that all the teams are close.
Quote:
We'll see what happens when the season starts. I don't know a soul in the world (including hardcore Skins fans) who'd take the Skins over the G-Men right now, though.
Are you kidding me? Find me a 'Skins fan that would take the Giants. ESPN did their top teams, and the Redskins were taken to be the 2nd best team in the league. Are you seriously going to point to preseason? If you are, then explain how the Redskins did not win the Bowl with Spurrier. Remember, they were undeafeated in preseason and averaged 34 points. The Redskins have not used a single offensive or defensive formation that will be the norm when the season starts. You are listening to too much local radio.

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Old
09-09-2006, 06:57 PM
  #34
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i'm a jet fan, the giants look good this year

it's really all on manning's shoulders, assuming everything else goes as expected

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Old
09-09-2006, 07:00 PM
  #35
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What is ridiculous? The following is at BEST the scenario:
QB: Manning>Brunell
RB: Tiki>Portis (even though I do not believe it to be true, IMO it is a toss-up)
WR: Moss/Randel El/Lloyd>Burress/Toomer (Don't believe me? Just look at the stats)
TE: Shockey>Cooley (Even though the stats will tell you different)
O-Line: 'Skins>Giants (Sorry, but the 'Skins starting 5 are better)
D-Line: Giants>'Skins (the Giants have the advantage at DE, the 'Skins at DT)
LB's: Giants='Skins (Sorry, but Pierce is not better than Marshall. And Arrington is not better than Washington. Potential and reality are two different things).
CB's: Skins>Giants (Springs & Rodgers are better than whomever the Giants throw out there)
FS & SS: Skins>Giants (again Taylor and Archuletta are better than whomever the Giants throw out)
i'm kind of lost in this whole thread but i'll just comment on this..

imo the only clear advantage here is the QB to the giants, O-line and secondary to the skins.. everything else might as well be a wash

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Old
09-09-2006, 07:07 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
O-Line: 'Skins>Giants (Sorry, but the 'Skins starting 5 are better)
I think the Giants' O-line is being severly underrated - the group allowed less than 30 sacks last year (26 or 27, I think), and helped Tiki to rush for just under 1900 yards! I'm not saying that the Skins' O-line sucks, but give some credit to the Giants here (not specifically TB, but in general).

Agreed about Bo in Tecmo, btw. In related news, my roommate and I were playing NFL 2K5 yesterday, and I think that we've found the latter day video game equivalent - Mike Vick. We were playing against the computer, and we kept running Vick on bootlegs. It seems like every one of them went for at least 50 yards - the computer D just couldn't catch up! He ended up with 400+ rushing yards and 7 rushing tds.

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09-09-2006, 07:21 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Voros19 View Post
What evidence? Yes, the Redskins had a nice run at the end of last season. A lot of teams have good runs however - Minnesota, for example. Are they any good?
The evidence is that you do not need to have a great QB to win. Do not compare them to Minnesotta please. They Skins had one of the top defenses (#2 in the league I believe), running backs and wide recievers. And it is not like Shockey was better than Cooley. A far cry from the Vikings. All the Redskins have done is improve personnel.
Quote:
Explain to me how Tiki isn't better than Portis.
Portis had more TD's. Tiki had plenty more rusing yards. I believe that with Saunders running the offense, that will change
Quote:
What makes Cooley elite then? Say what you want, but he isn't the receiving threat Shockey is
I did not say that he was elite. I just said that Shockey is not showing himself to be a good deal better. Everything you are offering is an excuse. Cooley had the same TD's, more catches, while having about 100 less yards.
Quote:
The fact it's very close between Santana and Plaxico.
Burress had 1200 yards, 76 catches & 7 TD's. Moss had nearly 1500 yards, 9 TD's & 84 catches. If you can make that correlation, then I am certainly well within grounds in saying that Tiki and Portis are a toss-up.
Quote:
What justification would you have for taking Randle El above Toomer, I must ask?
Toomer had only about 150 more yards last year. Randle El is much younger and is getting better, while Toomer is older and is not improving. Guess the Redskin fan in me will take my pick, like the Giants fan in you will take yours.
Quote:
I don't think Lloyd is that good, despite his occasional acrobatic grab. He accumulated those yards and receptions as the #1 guy in SF, we'll see how is production is as a #2/#3.
So you disparage his numbers, but laud Toomer? Come on. If that is not homerism, I do not know what is. Lloyd is going to be coached by one of the better offensive minds in the NFL. IF you can be gung-ho about Toomer, I can be gung-ho about Lloyd.
Quote:
How isn't the ability on the offensive line close? The Giants have a very underrated offensive line that is a good cohesive unit. Snee is pro-bowl material, and Diehl is underrated. The only real question mark on the line is Petigout's back.
Jansen, Samuels & Thomas are amongst the best in the league. Want to talk about underrated? Check out how the center plays.
Quote:
I really would like to go to an objective source and see who people would prefer on their team, Washington or Arrington.
Talk to anyone who has watched the Redskins play over the last 3 years. The best linebacker on the team (by far) has been Washington. Don't get me wrong, I love what Arrington COULD be. But he never became that. There are reasons why he has been coached by some of the best defensive minds in the game (Shottenhimer, Lewis & Williams) and none of them could make it work with him.
Quote:
A toss-up between Marshall and Pierce? Are you kidding? Pierce was the Giants MVP on defense last season. Take a look at the rushing yard stats when Pierce was in the lineup and when he wasn't. No way is Marshall better than Pierce, nor is he as good as Pierce.
No I am not kidding. You know what Pierce and Marshall have in commone? Both of their careers were made by Gregg Williams. He took an unknown and made him into an excellent middle-linebacker. What that unknown (Pierce) left for the Giants, you know what Williams did? He took another unknown and created a carbon-copy of Pierce. That's Marshall. You really want to argue this as well? Pierce had 98 tackles, 78 solo & 2.5 sacks. Marshall had 96 tackels, 77 solo & 2 sacks. So yes, Marshall is identical to Pierce.
Quote:
Jansen shutdown Strahan in a game. How does that factor into this argument at all?
The fact that he can shut-down one of the game's best DE's with two broken thumbs.
Quote:
NO ONE hits harder than Taylor? You come off like an ignorant homer here.
Great. That is my opinion and I am sticking to it. For points of reference, ask Terry Glenn.
Quote:
Besides, since when does hitting qualify a defense as good or bad?
It doesn't. I simply said that in addittion to being a great defense, they hit hard as well.
Quote:
There is one 't' in Archuleta, btw.
And?
Quote:
The Redskins made adjustments? How about the Giants just plain sucked and the Redskins played well?
Try again. It was well-publicized that Pierce sold out the Redskins defensive scheme. Going into the game at the Meadowlands, the Giants knew everything that the Reskins would do. Follwing that game, Williams made adjustments and changed up his schemes to something completely different.
Quote:
Even if the Redskins somehow made a gameplan that the Giants just couldn't compete with, which they didn't, how does that have any relevance as to who is better this season?
It has nothing to do with this season. I was responding to a poster's point about how well the Giants played at the Meadowlands and a possible reason as to why the Giants were able to move the ball at will against the NFL's 2nd best defense.

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Old
09-09-2006, 07:25 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by in the hall View Post
i'm kind of lost in this whole thread but i'll just comment on this..

imo the only clear advantage here is the QB to the giants, O-line and secondary to the skins.. everything else might as well be a wash
I started to get confused as well, ith. However, I believe that your analysis of the above is pretty much as fair as it gets. I can't quite argue this anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bk3nj
I think the Giants' O-line is being severly underrated - the group allowed less than 30 sacks last year (26 or 27, I think), and helped Tiki to rush for just under 1900 yards! I'm not saying that the Skins' O-line sucks, but give some credit to the Giants here (not specifically TB, but in general).
Fair enough.

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Old
09-10-2006, 09:45 AM
  #39
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TB- you are on A beer on each game payable at MSG at game mutually attended!

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