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Old
11-17-2003, 12:03 PM
  #1
H-Bear
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Team Futility

I wanted to do a comparison of all the NHL teams to see just how good/bad/consistent each team is year in, year out.

Here's how I broke it down:
  • went as far back to the 2000-2001 season (so that all teams are included in the comparison, including Minny, and CBJ)
  • added the number of points each team has gotten from the 2000-2001 season to the 2002-2003 season (ie: EDM had 93, 92, 92 point seasons; to add up to 277 points)
  • added 10 points for making the playoffs, another 10 points for each playoff round win, and another 10 points to the Cup winner.
The results:
New-Jersey Devils 414
Colorado Avalanche 412
Detroit Red Wings 407
Ottawa Senators 376
St.-Louis Blues 360
Toronto Maple Leafs 348
Dallas Stars 347
Philadelphia Flyers 344
Vancouver Canucks 328
San-Jose Sharks 297
Edmonton Oilers 297
Boston Bruins 296
Los-Angeles Kings 295
Washington Capitals 293
Carolina Hurricanes 290
Phoenix Coyotes 273
Buffalo Sabres 272
Anaheim Mighty Ducks 270
Minnesota Wild 266
Pittsburgh Penguins 260
Chicago Blackhawks 256
Montreal Canadiens 254
New-York Islanders 251
Tampa-Bay Lightning 241
New-York Rangers 230
Calgary Flames 227
Nashville Predators 223
Columbus Blue Jackets 197
Florida Panthers 196
Atlanta Thrashers 188

Many conclusions can be drawn from this. Take it for what you want. I see NJ being a powerhouse, along with COL and DET. There is a big gap in consistency, then OTT and company. EDM is higher than expected (at 11th most consistent over the years - I expected it to be closer to the buble of 15-16ish). CGY is consistantly bad ... way lower than they should be, as are the Rangers and Panthers. Atlanta should not be last, as they have been around longer than CBJ.

- Man oh man, it is amazing what I will do to procrastinate. Back to work!

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Old
11-17-2003, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by comrie
Many conclusions can be drawn from this. Take it for what you want. I see NJ being a powerhouse, along with COL and DET. There is a big gap in consistency, then OTT and company. EDM is higher than expected (at 11th most consistent over the years - I expected it to be closer to the buble of 15-16ish). CGY is consistantly bad ... way lower than they should be, as are the Rangers and Panthers. Atlanta should not be last, as they have been around longer than CBJ.

- Man oh man, it is amazing what I will do to procrastinate. Back to work!
Good job with the time waste there comrie. You know Samuel Clements (Mark Twain) noted: "Procrastination is the thief of all time." This website adds some depth to your 4 year analytical snapshot :http://nhl.com/hockeyu/history/cup/champs.html
A small market NHL club hasn't won that Stanley Cup since 1992 when Pittsburgh repeated.

It is for precisely that specific reality that the new CBA must have a hard salary cap and revenue sharing between all 30 NHL Franchise Partners. Although somewhat disadvantaged by the U$ vs Cdn$ differential, I consider Toronto and Montreal as large market clubs . If Vancouver could maintain its season ticket base during the lean years a little better, the 'Nucks to could be considered a large, or at least, a medium sized market. They have fans in Bellingham, Seattle and Victoria to draw from. Heck we have to split Red Deer with the Flames.

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11-17-2003, 01:22 PM
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Woohoo, Bellingham... there are Oiler fans here too..well at least one of us...hahah

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Old
11-17-2003, 01:24 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OYLer
Good job with the time waste there comrie. You know Samuel Clements (Mark Twain) noted: "Procrastination is the thief of all time." This website adds some depth to your 4 year analytical snapshot :http://nhl.com/hockeyu/history/cup/champs.html
A small market NHL club hasn't won that Stanley Cup since 1992 when Pittsburgh repeated.

It is for precisely that specifc reality that the new CBA must address a hard salary cap and revenue sharing between all 30 NHL Franchise Partners. Although somewhat disadvantaged by the U$ vs Cdn$ differential, I consider Toronto and Montreal as large market clubs . If Vancouver could maintain its season ticket base during the lean years a little better, the 'Nucks to could be considered a large, or at least, a medium sized market. They have fans in Bellingham, Seattle and Victoria to draw from. Heck we have to split Red Deer with the Flames.
A better quote for procrastination is (censored - fill in the blanks for yourself):

Procrastination is like masturbation; it feels great until you realize you are just ****ing yourself.

I personally don't get what makes a "small market", a "medium market", or a "large market". For example, Miami has a very large population, but are often considered small market .

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11-17-2003, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by comrie
I personally don't get what makes a "small market", a "medium market", or a "large market". For example, Miami has a very large population, but are often considered small market .
Markets are conditional upon identifying the reliable and repeatable customer base for a particular product or service. If no loyal customer base exists then you must endure large losses until you can grow the market base. An under capitalized NHL team is Nashville and I fully expect that franchise to fold or be moved soon. (Example: Before you establish an NHL Franchise try to determine the size of the market for its product first!).

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11-18-2003, 06:00 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OYLer
Markets are conditional upon identifying the reliable and repeatable customer base for a particular product or service. If no loyal customer base exists then you must endure large losses until you can grow the market base. An under capitalized NHL team is Nashville and I fully expect that franchise to fold or be moved soon. (Example: Before you establish an NHL Franchise try to determine the size of the market for its product first!).
The definition for a large market team then could be anyone who has a good fan base. So, say, EDM is a large market? It's up there in average attendance (limited by the size of the building), and is amongst the top in attendance percentage (98% ish). On the flip side, you look at NJ, with mediocre attendance, but a huge population from which to pluck it's fans; they would be considered a small market team?

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with your take on small market - large market definitions.

I would have to think that there would some sort of actual population number that makes a large market, all the while considering disposible family income (what's a large population if they have no money to spend??).

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11-18-2003, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by comrie
I would have to think that there would some sort of actual population number that makes a large market, all the while considering disposible family income (what's a large population if they have no money to spend??).
To use your example of Miami: the Panthers compete with the Heat, Dolphins, and Marlins. That's a *lot* of competition, and the NHL is new to Florida.

So no, it's silly to assume that large population necessarily equals large market.

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11-18-2003, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OYLer
Heck we have to split Red Deer with the Flames.
Trust me there isn't that much sharing going on. I'd say that the split is about 90%-10% in favour of the Oilers. I went on a bus tour to the game on Saturday with a bunch of people from the college here and out of the 30 people there was only 1 Flames fan, she was very quiet after the game.

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Old
11-18-2003, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigus
To use your example of Miami: the Panthers compete with the Heat, Dolphins, and Marlins. That's a *lot* of competition, and the NHL is new to Florida.

So no, it's silly to assume that large population necessarily equals large market.
Hopefully, south of the Mason-Dixon Line (disputed boundry between Pennsylvania and Virginia) NHL hockey can flourish artificially indoors, because outdoor ice will require a return of the ice age before the general populous down in the 'hood' on the sandlots start showing up for shinny. But with the advent of inline skating maybe artifical ice will eventually become redundant. A new slicker surface might evolve for a new millennium.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
comrie[/b]] I am going to have to respectfully disagree with your take on small market - large market definitions.

I would have to think that there would some sort of actual population number that makes a large market, all the while considering disposible family income (what's a large population if they have no money to spend??).
Together our ideas add up to agreeable consensus- don't you think?

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Old
11-18-2003, 09:37 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M00se
Trust me there isn't that much sharing going on. I'd say that the split is about 90%-10% in favour of the Oilers. I went on a bus tour to the game on Saturday with a bunch of people from the college here and out of the 30 people there was only 1 Flames fan, she was very quiet after the game.
I stand happily corrected, and fervently hopeful that when that same bus tour heads south to the Saddledom the situation remains the same. Because as we all know, if the good people of Cowtown were not geographically challenged, they'd all be Oilers' fans too.

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Old
11-18-2003, 09:44 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OYLer
Together our ideas add up to agreeable consensus- don't you think?
What just popped into my head is the idea that the market should be based on quality not quantity. Maybe looking at factors such as size, income, competition, fan loyalty/interest, etc.

I'll do three cities as an example:
Miami (since it's been used before). Big population; income?? I would assume rather two tierd, but high enough; lots of competition; lousy fan loyalty/interest. Conclusion: Bad hockey market.
Philly (because it's a 'big' market). Big population; high income; lots of competition; excellent fan interest/loyalty. Conclusion: Good hockey market.
EDM (well duh). Small population (in comparison with others), medium income; little/no competition; excellent fan interest/loyalty. Conclusion: Good hockey market.

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Old
11-18-2003, 09:59 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by comrie
What just popped into my head is the idea that the market should be based on quality not quantity. Maybe looking at factors such as size, income, competition, fan loyalty/interest, etc.

I'll do three cities as an example:
Miami (since it's been used before). Big population; income?? I would assume rather two tierd, but high enough; lots of competition; lousy fan loyalty/interest. Conclusion: Bad hockey market.
Philly (because it's a 'big' market). Big population; high income; lots of competition; excellent fan interest/loyalty. Conclusion: Good hockey market.
EDM (well duh). Small population (in comparison with others), medium income; little/no competition; excellent fan interest/loyalty. Conclusion: Good hockey market.
Now if only we could get to good and profitable!

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11-18-2003, 10:01 AM
  #13
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Originally Posted by OYLer
Now if only we could get to good and profitable!
Well, now you are just dreaming in technicolour!

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