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OT: Tragedy at Dawson College ON TOPIC THREAD

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Old
09-15-2006, 01:53 PM
  #226
guapo23
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This may be a little off topic but I am wondering if any of you feel like I do : that the government should step up gun control laws.

The killer obtained all his weapons legally.
Perhaps adding a psychiatric evaluation to the process would help ?

There is already a lot of steps a person must go through to get guns : Have to belong to a gun club and go shooting regularly, have to pass tests like when getting a driver's license.

I think that having an in-depth psychiatric evaluation of people who want to buy assault rifles would be a very good thing.

Then again, I really don't understand why people need assault rifles in Canada. They are not good for hunting animals and that is really the only valid reason to let citizens own guns.

I know people who hunt bears & moose with BOW & ARROWS so you can't say that assault rifles are necessary for big game hunting.

I am also curious as to where he obtained his guns.
I assume they came from an American company.
Does anybody have more info in this ?

We see so much propaganda from the US about how Canada is responsible for so many drugs entering the States. Likewise after 9/11 many US media & politicians were blaming Canada for letting the terrorists into the US (which turned out to be false).

They then use this as an excuse for political gain in terms of NAFTA , Trade duties, softwood lumber etc..

I think it is time that our government strike back and make the point that the US is a HUGE ARMS DEALING NATION. Their weapons kill a lot of our citizens every year. What are they doing to stem the tide of weapons across our border ??

What do you guys think ?

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09-15-2006, 02:00 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Darkside Cowboy View Post
Who cares really about what he said? The guy was a nut and now he's dead. This whole nightmare is over (just to clarify, the shooting is over, my prayers to the victims who are still struggling between life and death), and like all nightmares it's better to just let it rest.
actually it might matter what he said...

why?

because maybe it WAS in fact race related....

there was clearly a lot of anger in what the guy was doing, he also probably thought it was like in a video game (he mentions something related to that on his site). But it was calculated anger, like he seemed to be very aware of what he was doing, and i wouldnt brush off the hate crime part yet...

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09-15-2006, 02:02 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by The n00b King © View Post
actually it might matter what he said...

why?

because maybe it WAS in fact race related....

there was clearly a lot of anger in what the guy was doing, he also probably thought it was like in a video game (he mentions something related to that on his site). But it was calculated anger, like he seemed to be very aware of what he was doing, and i wouldnt brush off the hate crime part yet...
It was not race related...It was just the most horrible, most cold-hearted and disturbing thing you could imagine.

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09-15-2006, 02:03 PM
  #229
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We see so much propaganda from the US about how Canada is responsible for so many drugs entering the States. Likewise after 9/11 many US media & politicians were blaming Canada for letting the terrorists into the US (which turned out to be false).

They then use this as an excuse for political gain in terms of NAFTA , Trade duties, softwood lumber etc..

I think it is time that our government strike back and make the point that the US is a HUGE ARMS DEALING NATION. Their weapons kill a lot of our citizens every year. What are they doing to stem the tide of weapons across our border ??

What do you guys think ?
i like this. i would support something like that.

but it's not gonna happen from the conservatives, that's for sure. Jack Layton might though...

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09-15-2006, 02:05 PM
  #230
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actually it might matter what he said...

why?

because maybe it WAS in fact race related....

there was clearly a lot of anger in what the guy was doing, he also probably thought it was like in a video game (he mentions something related to that on his site). But it was calculated anger, like he seemed to be very aware of what he was doing, and i wouldnt brush off the hate crime part yet...
Regardless of his motives, what does it really change? Whether he did it because he hurt his foot that morning or because he had a grudge against humanity won't change what happened, will it? The only thing that can happen rummaging through this over and over is hurt.

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09-15-2006, 02:06 PM
  #231
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It was not race related...It was just the most horrible, most cold-hearted and disturbing thing you could imagine.
The habs will never win another stanley cup in their existence?

ok ok joke aside, i dont want to know what he said.

truly is a great shame though...no mother should ever have to see her son/daughter die...

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09-15-2006, 02:07 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
It was not race related...It was just the most horrible, most cold-hearted and disturbing thing you could imagine.
The guy was full of desillusions, he hated humanity, he was there to hurt people, so does it really change a thing what he said (and does it really surprises you)? Doing a trial to a dead person won't do any good to anyone, it will only hurt the victims and their families.

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09-15-2006, 02:09 PM
  #233
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one thing i'd like to add though...

i just want to ask why do most of you feel that the video game/violent music should be guilt free?

there's a lot of catalysts to something like this and i certainly dont think that video games should be scott free...

remember a lil saying? "violence incites violence".

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09-15-2006, 02:17 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Darkside Cowboy View Post
The guy was full of desillusions, he hated humanity, he was there to hurt people, so does it really change a thing what he said (and does it really surprises you)? Doing a trial to a dead person won't do any good to anyone, it will only hurt the victims and their families.
I'm not saying I disagree with you. All I'm saying that honestly, what he allegedly said is so disturbing to me that I find it hard not to think about it and it makes me almost sick to my stomach.

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09-15-2006, 02:25 PM
  #235
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I didn't read the whole thread, but did someone mention his parents...? they must feel just as bad as the parents of the victims, if not worse. Bring a naive little person to life, and he becomes this..

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09-15-2006, 02:28 PM
  #236
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There are many causes : you can't single out violent video games.

I think violence in the real world has a lot more to do with it : wars, bombs, military actions, terroism, massacres, genocide.

I think that has a way bigger impact than violent video games.

But as a society we glamourize violence as an acceptable form of entertainment.

But nudity, sex and breast-feeding are off-limits : dirty, shameful, sinful things that must be censored.

The values of our culture seem to be that creating life is bad, taking life is good.


Last edited by guapo23: 09-15-2006 at 02:34 PM.
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09-15-2006, 02:34 PM
  #237
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I also think that a lot of people live in fantasy worlds and become totally frozen to feeling empathy towards other humans.

The killer was isolated, drinking alone in his room with his guns and violent film, games & music.

He lived the goth lifestyle : a fantasy world where people have a morbid fascination with death. They idolize vampires : evil creatures that prey on humanity, treating them like cattle. A lot of them idolize serial killers or at least wear t-shirts of serial killers to try and offend .

The Vampire Freaks website has now been linked to 3 massacres by their members.

When does fantasy become reality ?
Very disturbing...

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09-15-2006, 02:44 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by The n00b King © View Post
one thing i'd like to add though...

i just want to ask why do most of you feel that the video game/violent music should be guilt free?

there's a lot of catalysts to something like this and i certainly dont think that video games should be scott free...

remember a lil saying? "violence incites violence".
I'd like to see some form of study that would prove that violence in video games/music has some sort of effect or relation to any of these crimes. The reason you hear theories about this in the media is because it's easy to do so... I still have yet to see any valid study that shows a direct relation to this type of crime and violence in video games..in fact I would venture to say the opposite is true....think of the amount of kids/adults playing these games that haven't done anything . Do we take away this "leisure" from millions of gamers for the weakness of one person even though this person may or may not have committed the crime regardless of the games? Some may say it has to do with video games but my argument to this would be....was there ever a murder before video games? a school shooting before video games? racism before video games? The answer is YES.
So , how can we blame something like this on a video game or music when we know that it's been happening LONG before either of the two had any influence whatsoever?

I'\m not trying to advocate violence in music and video games but I do feel very strongly against the censorship and scapegoat approaches so I ask these questions in honest hope of seeing a "behavioural study" response to prove me wrong which I would gladly nod my head to and accept.

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09-15-2006, 02:53 PM
  #239
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I'd like to see some form of study that would prove that violence in video games/music has some sort of effect or relation to any of these crimes. The reason you hear theories about this in the media is because it's easy to do so... I still have yet to see any valid study that shows a direct relation to this type of crime and violence in video games..in fact I would venture to say the opposite is true....think of the amount of kids/adults playing these games that haven't done anything . Do we take away this "leisure" from millions of gamers for the weakness of one person even though this person may or may not have committed the crime regardless of the games? Some may say it has to do with video games but my argument to this would be....was there ever a murder before video games? a school shooting before video games? racism before video games? The answer is YES.
So , how can we blame something like this on a video game or music when we know that it's been happening LONG before either of the two had any influence whatsoever?

I'\m not trying to advocate violence in music and video games but I do feel very strongly against the censorship and scapegoat approaches so I ask these questions in honest hope of seeing a "behavioural study" response to prove me wrong which I would gladly nod my head to and accept.

no no, i didnt mean to put the blame entirely on the video games and music industry. hence why i mentioned the catalysts.

i think that those industries are NOT guilt free. just like the media, movies, war etc is not guilt free.

it's just that some will not have the video game industry take any flack whatsoever (or violent music, such as gansta-rap).

you repeat something often enough and eventually people will start believing it...

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09-15-2006, 02:55 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by guapo23 View Post
I also think that a lot of people live in fantasy worlds and become totally frozen to feeling empathy towards other humans.

The killer was isolated, drinking alone in his room with his guns and violent film, games & music.

He lived the goth lifestyle : a fantasy world where people have a morbid fascination with death. They idolize vampires : evil creatures that prey on humanity, treating them like cattle. A lot of them idolize serial killers or at least wear t-shirts of serial killers to try and offend .

The Vampire Freaks website has now been linked to 3 massacres by their members.

When does fantasy become reality ?
Very disturbing...
Thanks for the compliment on the avatar.... in response to the 3 people linked to that site...is it not possible that the 3 people were already in the state of mind that they were in BEFORE joining that site?
The site is an outlet for many people who enjoy fantasy/vampirism etc. If this group of people is more proned to becoming violent then that's something to look at, but I can honestly say that "myspace" has many more members than Vampire Freaks and there are plenty of profiles on myspace that are far more disturbing than the ones on Vampire Freaks ... examples you say? just for fun....go to myspace and do a search for "Charles Manson" ....not convinced? try "Karla Homolka" ... need more? "Bundy" .....the list goes on and on....do we start blaming myspace for Manson murders? Of course not...why? because the title of the site "myspace" doesn't sound scary or mysterious the way "vampire freaks" does.

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09-15-2006, 02:58 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by The n00b King © View Post
no no, i didnt mean to put the blame entirely on the video games and music industry. hence why i mentioned the catalysts.

i think that those industries are NOT guilt free. just like the media, movies, war etc is not guilt free.

it's just that some will not have the video game industry take any flack whatsoever (or violent music, such as gansta-rap).

you repeat something often enough and eventually people will start believing it...
NooB , you sounded like George Bush for a sec there LOL ...just teasing, I know what you mean , I'm just not sure there's any reason or proof yet...and I think you're right in the sense of gamers and such being a little on the "overly defensive" side , but it's probably because of the knee-jerk accusations every time something like this happens...doesn't make either side right or wrong, but I do feel sorry for the musicians and video game makers that constantly have to defend a "ghost theory"

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09-15-2006, 03:12 PM
  #242
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[QUOTE=tritone;6498673]
"in response to the 3 people linked to that site...is it not possible that the 3 people were already in the state of mind that they were in BEFORE joining that site? "

I totally agree that these people were distrubed before joining the site. I am not blaming the website. But I think it is fair to take a hard look at subcultures that encourage violent antisocial behaviour.

For example, white power skinheads are prone to beating up & killing visible minorities. Ku Klux Klan members are prone to lynching black people. The values of these subcultures are anti-social and violent.

Likewise, Goth culture should examine itself & police itself.
Every movement has its posers and its harcore members.

The administrators of the VF website should have noticed that this guy was posing with guns and writing violent journals about dying in a hail of bullets, calling himself the Angel of Death, writing poetry about mutilating people etc...

The values of the Goth movement seem to be drifting away from harmless death fixation, hanging out in cemetaries, dressing up Victorian style and writing poetry.

I was disturbed by Goths I knew in the early 90's who would drink each others blood. In the AIDS era this seemed very stupid (and gross and disturbing).

It is much more disturbing to find people on the VF board with names like COLUMBINE HERO posting how much they admire Gill.

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09-15-2006, 03:14 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by The n00b King © View Post
one thing i'd like to add though...

i just want to ask why do most of you feel that the video game/violent music should be guilt free?

there's a lot of catalysts to something like this and i certainly dont think that video games should be scott free...

remember a lil saying? "violence incites violence".
Life is violence in a way. It's not always about physical violence. The way you are treated, how you need a job to "survive". Just being born is a violent moment from which you got to learn to breath in a second to survive.

As to violent stuff, there are multiple reasons why people are drawned to it, but it's more a tool than a motive. Man has been violent for ages, with/without television and/or video games. Some of the most violent countries people are too poor for TV/video games, yet the violence is great.

However, since people that commit these acts feel persecuted somehow, they'll associate to something where they can vent their frustration, where they can feel powerful, and that's often through fantasies of being a character (Rambo) or through video games.

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09-15-2006, 03:18 PM
  #244
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I'd like to point out that the video game he enjoyed was a freeware hobbyist game, not a game the industry actually produced.

In the industry there's something called the ESRB rating. Of course, the ESRB doesn't really matter when the nutcase is 25 years old, but....

I'll shut up now. I kinda just owned myself there.

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09-15-2006, 03:25 PM
  #245
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[QUOTE=guapo23;6498840]
Quote:
Originally Posted by tritone View Post
"in response to the 3 people linked to that site...is it not possible that the 3 people were already in the state of mind that they were in BEFORE joining that site? "

I totally agree that these people were distrubed before joining the site. I am not blaming the website. But I think it is fair to take a hard look at subcultures that encourage violent antisocial behaviour.

For example, white power skinheads are prone to beating up & killing visible minorities. Ku Klux Klan members are prone to lynching black people. The values of these subcultures are anti-social and violent.

Likewise, Goth culture should examine itself & police itself.
Every movement has its posers and its harcore members.

The administrators of the VF website should have noticed that this guy was posing with guns and writing violent journals about dying in a hail of bullets, calling himself the Angel of Death, writing poetry about mutilating people etc...

The values of the Goth movement seem to be drifting away from harmless death fixation, hanging out in cemetaries, dressing up Victorian style and writing poetry.

I was disturbed by Goths I knew in the early 90's who would drink each others blood. In the AIDS era this seemed very stupid (and gross and disturbing).

It is much more disturbing to find people on the VF board with names like COLUMBINE HERO posting how much they admire Gill.
Again, the problem is not the site, it's the person on the site....there are profiles that are so eerily similar to this guy's profile on EVERY site, not just the Goth sites...that's what I'm trying to say, it is not fair to single out the Goth or Vampire community for this ...If I remember correctly there are 600,000 members on that site....3 incidents from 600,000 members isn't what I would call conclusive evidence of anything

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09-15-2006, 03:25 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by guapo23 View Post
For example, white power skinheads are prone to beating up & killing visible minorities. Ku Klux Klan members are prone to lynching black people. The values of these subcultures are anti-social and violent.

Likewise, Goth culture should examine itself & police itself.
Every movement has its posers and its harcore members.

The administrators of the VF website should have noticed that this guy was posing with guns and writing violent journals about dying in a hail of bullets, calling himself the Angel of Death, writing poetry about mutilating people etc...

The values of the Goth movement seem to be drifting away from harmless death fixation, hanging out in cemetaries, dressing up Victorian style and writing poetry.

I was disturbed by Goths I knew in the early 90's who would drink each others blood. In the AIDS era this seemed very stupid (and gross and disturbing).

It is much more disturbing to find people on the VF board with names like COLUMBINE HERO posting how much they admire Gill.
You seem to misunderstand culture and organisation. The Ku Klux Klan is an organisation that promotes hatred. "Goth" is a type of culture to which people are associated. They aren't "goth" members. Just like you could lump together the "jocks" or whatever else. Other than being stranger than the average people, they ain't a self policing group.

I'm sure there are thousands of young individuals that hate the world and like guns. What can we do about it? They're not doing anything illegal. You can't put them in jail for hating the world or for liking guns.

Some twisted people find what Gill did was cool. It's disturbing, but it's nothing new. Just like Charles Manson had tons of fans back in the day (and still has). In NA, we have a fascination with public figures, whether they're politicians, hollywood stars or murderers. I find it strange and I don't like it, but that's the way it is, and unless we have some sort of thought police, we just have to accept it and do our best to change it for the better.

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09-15-2006, 03:54 PM
  #247
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A final thought on the whole "violent music & video games influence vs Society Violence like War" : I have to go to work.

Here is a quote from Jello Biafra, spoken word activist and ex-lead singer of the Dead Kennedys, founder of the No More Censhorship Defense Fund, Green Party Candidate in the USA etc..

"Who encourages more kids to end up dead : Ozzy Osbourne records or Military Recruitement Posters ?"

Have a nice day everybody.
All my love to the victims' families, Dawson students and everbody affected by this senseless tragedy...

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09-15-2006, 04:11 PM
  #248
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One more thing : I think some blame can go to the owners & administrators of the VF site.

I thought there were laws governing the ethics of websites & chat rooms. If your site has 600,000 members you should have sufficient resources to monitor the site.

How can Goths complain of being stereotyped in the media when their fantasy world becomes reality ?

If Goth was my scene I would not let psychos represent me in the media. I would make an effort to weed out the hardcore psychos from the average goth. That's the 3rd massacre commited by members of this site. I think they have a responsibility to police their own website.

The sheer volume of photos of him posing with guns should have been noticed by somebody.

Look at this site HF Boards. Many of us have had posts deleted, been warned for posting things against the rules etc...
HF boards is not a paysite yet it polices itself very well...

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09-15-2006, 05:56 PM
  #249
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But as a society we glamourize violence as an acceptable form of entertainment.
You obviously buy into violence as entertainment, or you would not have an avatar showing Kovalev drilling some Leaf with a violent elbow to the face.

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09-15-2006, 06:24 PM
  #250
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Actually the point I was making is that society views violence as acceptable entertainment while sex, nudity and breastfeeding is taboo.

Personally, I believe that some forms of violence are totally acceptable as entertainment : hockey fights, films, video games like Grand Theft Auto.

I do not think snuff films, **** fantasy films (as seen in a lot of Japanese Anime) and footage from war is acceptable as entertainment. I am disgusted by jingoistic politicians who glorify and propagate war. I am disgusted by the way a lot of US media turns horrible tragedies, death, war, famine etc.. into cheap, flashy, sensational entertainment.

As for my avatar, Tucker is assaulting Kovalev's elbow with his face

I just changed my avatar as my previous avatar was of Punk / Harcore / Horror rock group the Misfits. The picture is of them all in black with menacing faces and skull motif. I didn't think it was appropriate to use it anymore after the gothic maniac attack. It may offend people on this board so I changed it. The only hockey jpeg I had on my PC was this one...

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