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Old
09-14-2006, 04:19 PM
  #176
SuperUnknown
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Originally Posted by BORAT View Post
I hope 2 things come out of all of this :

1 - Colleges inform kids on '' procedures '' in these situations ( have things preplanned ) and we're not just talking of '' shooter '' situations. Fire, riot etc ... Colleges should draft up a plan to evacuate kids safely

2 - Make sure that college security use more deterrent means ( mase, immobilisation gas grenade, tazer gun ) that make sure a situation like this gets under control quickly.

One last point ... that isn't included in my comments :

Colleges in the states all have a '' campus '' police, why not instore similar measures.

1- I'm sure they have procedures. There's been fire, riot, procedures everywhere I've been. Doesn't mean I was interested in knowing them (name the people that know their evacuation procedures at work?).

2- The police was right on the heels of the killer. What else could have been done? It seems everything happened in minutes. Don't you think another kind of deterrent would have confused the panicked mass even more? (leading to possible trampling injuries)

3- First, a police there full time wouldn't really help other than the occasional event, so the cop would probably get complacent. The level of violence in our schools (especially colleges) is really low if you compare it to the states.

4- I think we should avoid knee-jerk reactions and get passed the fact one isolated event happened. There will never be any means that will protect the students (or any other public place) from a criminal mind other than total control of the state over our lives.

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09-14-2006, 04:23 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
There really isn't anyway of preventing something like this. There have been no problems like this in Montreal in quite awhile now, and now that it happens, all of sudden we aren't prepared enough? We aren't in a war country or state, more security would honestly be more of a waste then anything, ok well maybe more can help I guess, but to a certain degree.

Because it happened once, doesn't mean it will happen again, and at that probably means it won't happen again for a long while if you think about it in terms of stats.

Of course being better prepared would be good, but who will be the one at teh meeting "ok so lets make up a plan if 3 random guys walk into the school with guns" this isn't the middle east, it isn't on our mind till it happens, and now that it did happen, I doubt anyone would do a repeat as there WILL be highten security at dawson
Hmm ... how can we prevent this ? I mean crazy people have always existed, do we cerebro analyse everyone for a kill streak ?

I think that like Colombine, in this case preventative measures won't be enough, we need to find a way to quickly control the situation, that would involveintra college security intervening

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09-14-2006, 04:24 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by habs911 View Post
Borat, did Josh get out of the hospital? I'm at school and his cell phone doesn't pick up any news if he's out?
I heard he's stable , and I can't get a hold of his father today, will try later

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09-14-2006, 04:26 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
The real sad thing about all of this is that gun laws are going to come under scrutiny yet again. As well, rock n roll music, video games, television, and just about everything else under the sun is going to be blamed for this. For once, I wish people would grow a set, quit making excuses and tell it like it really is. The guy was obviously mentally unglued and no amount of good parenting or anything like that was going to stop it.

The even sadder thing is that this guy is going to be remembered and the people who were shot and those who died, are only going to be forgotten in a week from now. That's the real tragedy.
No, the real sad thing is that an innocent 18 year old girl was killed.

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09-14-2006, 04:42 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by BORAT View Post
Hmm ... how can we prevent this ? I mean crazy people have always existed, do we cerebro analyse everyone for a kill streak ?

I think that like Colombine, in this case preventative measures won't be enough, we need to find a way to quickly control the situation, that would involveintra college security intervening
see that is the problem
I don't think there really is anyway to stop it in the sense of it's random violence, with key on random

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09-14-2006, 04:53 PM
  #181
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LCN just interviewed a guy who was with Kimveer the whole time.

He was taken hostage basically and used as a shield to the cops.
Anastacia was shot in the stomach and fell into this guys arms (James Santos). Kimveer instructed James to leave the girl and follow him. So not wanting to die, he did what he was told. During the time Kimveer was telling him that it was his last day to live (kimveer's). After several minutes, the cops had a shot at Kimveer and hit him in the leg. Gill fell to the floor, took his gun, put it to his throat and killed himself.

James then took off running not knowing what happen to anastacia and he found out last night that she passed.

the family as well found out only at 10:00 last night.
poor girl, poor family.


Last edited by Galchenyuk x 27: 09-14-2006 at 05:07 PM.
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09-14-2006, 04:59 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
The universities I've been in all have "campus" police. But I used to work with a researcher who had formerly applied to the force during his grad work. He said that their official policy is complete non-engagement. If there is a fight, a beating, *anything* they are not allowed to get involved, period. The most they are allowed to do is observe and call the real police. How can you put someone in that position and require that they not intervene to protect somebody? (And note, I'm not talking about dorky looking kids in windbreakers with "SECURITY" printed on the back, these forces have uniforms, squad cars, utility belts, bullet proof vests, the works, save for firearms.) Sure, I understand there are some reasons for it, and you'd like to think that there would be some common sense decisions made by some individuals to break the rules at times. But I don't know if campus police would necessarily make a difference in such a case, unless they had a much different mandate than at present.
Really? The university I attend have armed police. Last year, a man high on drugs and armed with a loaded handgun appeared on campus. He started to harass people and then brandished a gun when the police arrived. They had no choice but to shoot him. I couldn't even imagine what would happen if the campus police didn't have guns.

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09-14-2006, 05:39 PM
  #183
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It's the 3rd school shooting in the City of Montreal in the last 16 years ? What's the problem ? Things happen in the US but it never happen at the same place..

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09-14-2006, 05:57 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Team_Spirit View Post
It's the 3rd school shooting in the City of Montreal in the last 16 years ? What's the problem ? Things happen in the US but it never happen at the same place..
2003 September 24th - USA, Minnesota, Cold Spring, Rocori High School: A 15-year-old boy opened fire in the weight room and the gym; a veteran teacher talked the boy into handing over the small-caliber handgun. When police arrived, the boy was in the custody of the school's staff; one student died and another was critically wounded.

2005 March 21st – USA, Minnesota, Beltrami County, Red Lake High School: A student killed his grandparents at their home and then went on a shooting rampage with two handguns and a shotgun at a 300-student school on a sovereign Indian reservation near the Canadian border; eight people (a teacher, a security guard, 5 students, and the assailant) died at the school and 12 others were injured.




2001 March 5th. - USA, California, Santee near San Diego, Santana High School: 15-year old student opened fire and killed two students and wounded 13 other people

2001 March 22nd. - USA, California, El Cajon near San Diego
, Granite Hills High School: 18-year old student started shooting and wounded 5 people

17 days apart for Cali....yeah, never happens in the good ol USA... What's the problem? The problem is nobody knows , nobody can really ever "know" that's why it's called RANDOM.

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09-14-2006, 07:14 PM
  #185
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Crazy Nine :

Why are you trying to stir up trouble ?
I have been reading this thread all day and you have done nothing but ARGUE WITH PEOPLE.

Go find another thread if that is what you want to do.
Go argue about hockey with a Leafs fan or something.

The rest of us are sharing info, telling stories and commiserating about the horror that took place yesterday. We are trying to be positive.

Since you stated earlier that you find this post inappropriate, why do you keep trolling ???

Making statements like "I LOVE GUNS" at a time like this is in callous bad taste.
Who are you to lecture anybody about decorum ?

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09-14-2006, 07:18 PM
  #186
CrAzYNiNe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guapo23 View Post
Crazy Nine :

Why are you trying to stir up trouble ?
I have been reading this thread all day and you have done nothing but ARGUE WITH PEOPLE.

Go find another thread if that is what you want to do.
Go argue about hockey with a Leafs fan or something.

The rest of us are sharing info, telling stories and commiserating about the horror that took place yesterday. We are trying to be positive.

Since you stated earlier that you find this post inappropriate, why do you keep trolling ???

Making statements like "I LOVE GUNS" at a time like this is in callous bad taste.
Who are you to lecture anybody about decorum ?
No see that's the thing. Timing is all in your head. I love guns, I love the physics behind guns. I hate violence completely against war. I have never held a gun in my life.

I only speak whats on my mind and the truth, if you can't understand what I am saying, I am sorry, my writing is terrible, never was any good at expressing myself properly. All I can say really is that when I get attacked on my opinion, I will make sure that person who attacked me will know how far I am willing to defend my opinion. At times I went over board, but so did they, but since they were defending the side that most of people here agree with, I am the one who is wrong. But no, because most people think I am wrong, and now you are another one, still doesn't make me wrong and everything I said, was in no way to be cruel to anyone, but if people think thats how I meant it, what can i do?

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09-14-2006, 07:32 PM
  #187
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[QUOTE=CrAzYNiNe;6494137] I love guns, I love the physics behind guns. I hate violence completely against war. I have never held a gun in my life.

Then how can you love guns ?
Are you another video game freak living in a fantasy world who is going to go nuts and commit crimes like the maniac yesterday ?

How far will you go to defend your opinions ?
Are you gonna come after me next ?

Obviously, things like decorum and sensivity during a tragedy aren't enough to stop you from picking fights on this thread and making comments about how much you love guns.

As you say, if anybody has a problem with your opinions you will attack them till the end.
Those are disturbing comments coming from a guy who LOVES GUNS.
Pretty similar to what i read by that maniac on the Vampire Freaks website today.
Should I report you to the cops ?

In a time of tragedy, use your head and wonder whether defending your own ego is so important. There are people on this thread who know some of the vitctims. Have some sensitivity jackass.

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09-14-2006, 07:48 PM
  #188
CrAzYNiNe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guapo23 View Post
Then how can you love guns ?
Are you another video game freak living in a fantasy world who is going to go nuts and commit crimes like the maniac yesterday ?

How far will you go to defend your opinions ?
Are you gonna come after me next ?

Obviously, things like decorum and sensivity during a tragedy aren't enough to stop you from picking fights on this thread and making comments about how much you love guns.

As you say, if anybody has a problem with your opinions you will attack them till the end.
Those are disturbing comments coming from a guy who LOVES GUNS.
Pretty similar to what i read by that maniac on the Vampire Freaks website today.
Should I report you to the cops ?

In a time of tragedy, use your head and wonder whether defending your own ego is so important. There are people on this thread who know some of the vitctims. Have some sensitivity.
A gun, is a weapon yes, but because I like guns means I will go out and shoot people? Talk about exaggeration. Like I keep saying, everyday people are guned down in the streets of canada, US... and because I said this TODAY, means what to you? So people were shot at yesterday, that's my fault? Read the thread I wrote when I said what I said. I by no means condone violence. And to your question, I do like video games with guns. I play BF2 and I am pretty good, ranked within the top 500 in the game, although I don't have much time to play anymore. The point is, I am not a stupid child, and for you to even say that I would do anything like what happened yesterday questions your ability to actually read a sentence and understand what I wrote.

Defend my opinions, come after you? Are you serious? I will write what is on my mind, by what means does that make me violent in anyway? Do you know what you are saying?

OK here goes nothing, I spoke to znk in private msg because he was as outraged as a lot of people here seem to be, luckily unlike some he was an adult about it and actually help me get to an explanation of it.

This is what I wrote to him:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe
OK let me start from the top then.

For starters I am not against the thread at all, I really don't mind that people want to post about it, in some cases it might help people. The reason I did say some crazy things like that was because people were coming from all angles saying that I should shut up. I am sorry, but no one in the world tells me to shut up and that my opinion isn't valid, so because of me being insulted, I went into the wrong type of defence, and offended some people, making it general in some post, because well I didn't care.

To the topic at hand. I get very angry reading the post from people that are like why did this happen here, I can't beleive I know someone who knows someone that got hurt blah blah blah. This is where I get angry. Like it always brings me back to when people speak of the holocaust and ignore other mad genocides(I am jewish, family is from poland and england, so you can do that math) and even though i am affected, still bothers me about those who are forgoten. I guess that is my main point. But like I tried to clear up, it was a terrible day yesterday for a lot of people, and I in no way wanted to take away from that, but when people say my opinion is wrong, or take it off a public forum, I lose it. Ignorant people are just not people I will never have anything in common with.

any of that make sense?
oh and a post that got me very angry was the post that said something like "because something happens in the world, means it doesnt affect quebec" That post made me go off the deep end because that is the general thinkin that I think is wrong. Because someone dies in another country, that means it not as important as right here? I can't agree with that.

But like always I will not deter from certain post. I will always be really interested in guns, the mere physics behind them will always impress me and for some reason I said it, I don't want to look why it came out, if someones wants to hook me up with a link so i can see why i wrote it, I will explain it.

oh and sigh man, I can't beleive you might actually be serious, attack them to the end, we are on a msg board, I mean on the forum with msgs. That's all that meant. Was I really making it seem like I would find someones house and go and physicly hurt them? Come on are you serious? You can't be can you?


Last edited by Darz: 09-15-2006 at 08:05 AM.
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Old
09-14-2006, 07:50 PM
  #189
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great avatar TRITONE.

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09-14-2006, 08:00 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
everything I said, was in no way to be cruel to anyone, but if people think thats how I meant it, what can i do?
Well, for starters you can learn to express yourself more cleary.


Last edited by Darz: 09-15-2006 at 08:02 AM.
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09-14-2006, 08:04 PM
  #191
CrAzYNiNe
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Originally Posted by g23 View Post
Well, for starters you can learn to express yourself more cleary.
And you can be more respectful...

I can't be held accountable for arguing at 3-4 diffrent people at once and getting my thoughts confused.

Again, I will not back down from anyone who doesn't even try understand my point of view. I don't ask you to agree, but try to understand something beyond your own logic.


Last edited by Darz: 09-15-2006 at 08:01 AM.
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09-14-2006, 08:05 PM
  #192
Team_Spirit
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Originally Posted by tritone View Post
2003 September 24th - USA, Minnesota, Cold Spring, Rocori High School: A 15-year-old boy opened fire in the weight room and the gym; a veteran teacher talked the boy into handing over the small-caliber handgun. When police arrived, the boy was in the custody of the school's staff; one student died and another was critically wounded.

2005 March 21st – USA, Minnesota, Beltrami County, Red Lake High School: A student killed his grandparents at their home and then went on a shooting rampage with two handguns and a shotgun at a 300-student school on a sovereign Indian reservation near the Canadian border; eight people (a teacher, a security guard, 5 students, and the assailant) died at the school and 12 others were injured.




2001 March 5th. - USA, California, Santee near San Diego, Santana High School: 15-year old student opened fire and killed two students and wounded 13 other people

2001 March 22nd. - USA, California, El Cajon near San Diego
, Granite Hills High School: 18-year old student started shooting and wounded 5 people

17 days apart for Cali....yeah, never happens in the good ol USA... What's the problem? The problem is nobody knows , nobody can really ever "know" that's why it's called RANDOM.
It's in the same state , not in the same city... And those around San Diego are clearly related , the rampage here weren't done a few days after another shooting. And that's probaly why some people will be afraid to go back to school in the next month or so.

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09-14-2006, 08:12 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I am sorry, my writing is terrible, never was any good at expressing myself properly.
Ok fair enough, but t you can't say that and then:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe
I can't be held accountable for arguing at 3-4 diffrent people at once and getting my thoughts confused.
Sorry, but you can't have it both ways, if you cannot express yourself properly then you are accountable for people not uderstanding.

And as far as respect goes you have been the most disrespectful person in this thread. What goes around, comes around.


Edit: I do actually understand your original point, but the point has been made so just let it go already.


Last edited by g23: 09-14-2006 at 08:28 PM.
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09-14-2006, 08:13 PM
  #194
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[QUOTE=CrAzYNiNe;6494277] "Now your childish mind is making me angry. The point is, I am not a stupid child, and for you to even say that I would do anything like what happened yesterday questions your ability to actually read a sentence and understand what I wrote."




You are upset that people are offended by your "i love guns" comments during a massacre. You don't understand why.

Here's an example to help you understand :


You mention that are Jewish and from Poland.
So if on the anniversary of the holocaust (in an internet thread about the Holocaust) I were to paraphrase your gun comments and say :

" i love the physics of gas chambers. I don't like war and would never use one personally but I really love gas chambers".

Would that comment be appropriate on the anniversary of the holocaust ?
Or would it be an inflammatory comment designed to piss people off ?
Would it be in very poor taste, horribly insensitive and just plain wrong ??


As for seriously thinking that you are a violent person about to go after people who disagree with you, no I dont think that.
But after spending a lot of today reading the killer's journal and posting on the Vampire Freak website I thought to myself :
HOW COME THE MODERATORS ON THAT SITE DIDN'T SEE ANY WARNING SIGNS ?

1 - He was writing violent, threatening things.
2 - He Loved Guns : he posted many pictures of himself with guns on the site.
3 - The administrators did nothing.
RESULT - one girl is dead, many are wounded.

To make the parralel :

1- you love guns
2- you are threatening to come after & attack anybody who does not agree with you
3- you are arguing with people all day on a thread where people are trying to heal, share info on gunshot vitims they know etc...

So I am wondering : are you dangerous ? Should you be reported ?
You are exhibiting anti-social behaviour and a huge lack of empathy in the middle of a tragedy.

My point is you should be way more carefull about what you post and have some sensitivity. People get paranoid during massacres : do you really want to be seen as a threat ?


Last edited by Darz: 09-15-2006 at 07:59 AM.
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09-14-2006, 08:20 PM
  #195
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Good point G23 : you can't have it both ways Crazynine.

If you know that you lack good communication skills how can you be shocked when people "misunderstand" your posts.

It's easy to back away from controversial comments by saying you were misunderstood.

But to give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps english isn't your first language.

To be properly understood you should take more time writing your post.
Read it over a few times before sending it.
Make short, clear sentences.

Or maybe the best solution is not make inflammatory statements like "I LOVE GUNS"
the day after a massacre.

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09-14-2006, 08:22 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
3 - The administrators did nothing.
I respect everything you said, but they have 600,000 members on their site

I don't think that the administrators looks at every pages on the site.

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09-14-2006, 08:24 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Team_Spirit View Post
It's in the same state , not in the same city... And those around San Diego are clearly related , the rampage here weren't done a few days after another shooting. And that's probaly why some people will be afraid to go back to school in the next month or so.
Look, Montreal has more post secondary students per capita than any city in North America. That's no reason for this stuff to happen here but it makes sense that more school violence will happen in places where there are more students and schools.

At almost 4 million people Montreal has one of the lowest crime rates, one of the lowest violent crime rates, and gun-related crime rates in North America and probably in the world for a major urban centre of 1 million+. It is by no means even a violent city by Canadian standards. So let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. What happened is terrible. We all want to know why. But one or even 3 events over a 20 year period doesn't change the fact that Montreal is one of the best, most beautiful and safest places to live and go to school.


Last edited by Catch-22: 09-14-2006 at 08:30 PM.
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09-14-2006, 08:25 PM
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guapo23 View Post


You are upset that people are offended by your "i love guns" comments during a massacre. You don't understand why.

Here's an example to help you understand :


You mention that are Jewish and from Poland.
So if on the anniversary of the holocaust (in an internet thread about the Holocaust) I were to paraphrase your gun comments and say :

" i love the physics of gas chambers. I don't like war and would never use one personally but I really love gas chambers".

Would that comment be appropriate on the anniversary of the holocaust ?
Or would it be an inflammatory comment designed to piss people off ?
Would it be in very poor taste, horribly insensitive and just plain wrong ??


As for seriously thinking that you are a violent person about to go after people who disagree with you, no I dont think that.
But after spending a lot of today reading the killer's journal and posting on the Vampire Freak website I thought to myself :
HOW COME THE MODERATORS ON THAT SITE DIDN'T SEE ANY WARNING SIGNS ?

1 - He was writing violent, threatening things.
2 - He Loved Guns : he posted many pictures of himself with guns on the site.
3 - The administrators did nothing.
RESULT - one girl is dead, many are wounded.

To make the parralel :

1- you love guns
2- you are threatening to come after & attack anybody who does not agree with you
3- you are arguing with people all day on a thread where people are trying to heal, share info on gunshot vitims they know etc...

So I am wondering : are you dangerous ? Should you be reported ?
You are exhibiting anti-social behaviour and a huge lack of empathy in the middle of a tragedy.

My point is you should be way more carefull about what you post and have some sensitivity. People get paranoid during massacres : do you really want to be seen as a threat ?


to the part where i show no empathy, have you read my post, I don't believe in violence of any kind, said that in a few thread(yes they are numerous, not your fault for missing some). That gas chamber thing, well I see your point, saying it was in really bad taste, I think when i come home later I will find where I wrote it and see if it was valid by any means. But I am the type of person that hides nothing, I do think guns are amazing, and I can't hide that, but what happened yesterday won't change the way I think about them, only makes me wonder how he was able to get them

The next part, saying im i will hurt someone, please take the word attack and take away the physical violence part in your head. I know after reading your last post that you don't have any reason to think that I want would physicly hurt someone over this. I just want people to UNDERSTAND what I have to say, although people would rather say that my opinion means nothing and for me to shut up, but I can't and will never do that. That is all I mean by attack, is simply will keep throwing words in people faces.

I am not mentally disturbed or anyhting of that nature, it's funny how you try to catogorize me though, thought that was hilarious. My philosophy about people, is everyone is diffrent. So when you said because you read his diaries and said I might be like him, well that's your opinion as far off as it me be.


Last edited by Darz: 09-15-2006 at 08:00 AM.
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09-14-2006, 08:35 PM
  #199
madbox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taupy View Post
I respect everything you said, but they have 600,000 members on their site

I don't think that the administrators looks at every pages on the site.
After seeing some of the pictures he had up and their descriptions, plus everything he had written on his profile that I've read about... is it really possible that not one member atleast reported it? I dunno, not blaming the sites owner, it's just so disturbing- but went ignored...


A current poll on CTV.ca... it raises the question.
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09-14-2006, 08:41 PM
  #200
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You are right Saku Koivu - no more arguing.
I am sorry to have argued so long.
I just felt that somebody should challenge his comments.

As always, Saku leads by example...

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