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Old
09-17-2006, 11:28 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Well that shouldn't take too long.

What's sad is I consider Betts getting hurt a given.
agreed, at least Greg Moore will get a look too.

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09-17-2006, 11:35 PM
  #52
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Well I wouldn't get too concerned with the line combos for the first few days of camp. If we go on that than we'd expect Orr to be an everyday player which I just don't see happening
I think you can look at the line combos and get a sense for what the Rangers are thinking. Training camp is much shorter than what it used to be and Renney has already commented on line combos. I try not to get to caught up with it because they can change after a period of play but it's interesting that Ward and Hollweg are both playing center..
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Helminen also wouldn't be hopeless at a wing position where his defensive ability would certainly come in handy. Yes you'd lose his faceoff ability, but he's more than just a faceoff guy.
I think Helminen can play winger but who sits for him? It goes back to having enough space for the guy. Who gets cut/sent down/ or moved for Helminen to make the team..
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I think Renney likes Betts, but I don't buy into him being THAT loyal to guys like Betts and Ortmeyer. Two months ago we thought that about Moore and he's not even on the team anymore, so I'm not really too concerned.
I think the red flags went up with Moore when he filed for arbitration but maybe thats just me. Plus, Hall has more potential so that deal was a no-brainer for the Rangers to make. Could the Rangers get something for Betts? You bet, but I doubt what's coming back is valuable as Hall. I never bought into Renney being that loyal to Ortmeyer but when Betts was out Renney pointed to it hurting the team a number or times. Renney likes Betts and our young checking players are going to have put up a heck of a fight to beat Betts out for a spot..Right or Wrong..
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Helminen has probably helped his cause by showing he has the potential to chip in some points along with everything else he does. It was only a year ago everyone (myself included) pointed to his college awards as a defensive player, his success with Orts on Michigans PK units and pegged him as a fourth line defensive specialist. If he can chip in 10 or so goals on top of all that, he's a dang good find by the Rangers and their staff.
I don't think Helmeinen can translate his numbers to the NHL and i like the kid.. A LOT. I think he is already a good find and think he has future with the Rangers but I don't think it's in the coming months..
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I just think this kid is really going to surprise a lot of people.
I do too. Infact I bet he has already but more seasoning isn't going to hurt Helminen. Like i said earlier i think he will get his shot this year but I don't think it's going to be right away..

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09-17-2006, 11:53 PM
  #53
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I think Helminen can play winger but who sits for him? It goes back to having enough space for the guy. Who gets cut/sent down/ or moved for Helminen to make the team..
Personally I think he could slide in for Ortmeyer. I don't see Orr getting the nod and I just honestly don't think Hossa is a long term solution either.

That is of course assuming he doesn't beat out Betts.

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I think the red flags went up with Moore when he filed for arbitration but maybe thats just me. Plus, Hall has more potential so that deal was a no-brainer for the Rangers to make. Could the Rangers get something for Betts? You bet, but I doubt what's coming back is valuable as Hall. I never bought into Renney being that loyal to Ortmeyer but when Betts was out Renney pointed to it hurting the team a number or times. Renney likes Betts and our young checking players are going to have put up a heck of a fight to beat Betts out for a spot..Right or Wrong..
Maybe, but I think there is this notion that Renney is loyal to these guys to a fault and I just don't see it and the moves dictate otherwise. Losing Betts did hurt the team, but it also hurt the team because there wasn't a viable option to really replace him at the time.

If Helminen comes in and plays like he has and does what Betts does, that kind of goes out the window because it shows there are other options.

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I don't think Helmeinen can translate his numbers to the NHL and i like the kid.. A LOT. I think he is already a good find and think he has future with the Rangers but I don't think it's in the coming months..
Is he going to score 30 goals? No.

But if Betts and Moore could pop in close to 10 and they had lesser numbers than Helminen, than 10 isn't a reach.

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I do too. Infact I bet he has already but more seasoning isn't going to hurt Helminen. Like i said earlier i think he will get his shot this year but I don't think it's going to be right away.
At 23 he's already got the defense down and showed surprise offense, I personally don't really think there's much left for him to work on down there.

Truth be told, the kid is battling Blair Betts for a fourth line center spot not Nylander for the second line center spot. When all is said and done I think he's in need of less seasoning than Dawes, Immonen, Dubinsky or any of the other names people keep mentioning. For his role (4th line center) I think he's closer to jumping in right away than those guys for their roles (second line players).

But I don't think there's anything "pretty" about 4th line centers so most people instead turn their attention to the sexier prospects. It's really no different than last season with Moore and Betts. Those bottom line guys get overlooked because no one can project "glory" for them but they're the ones who quietly seem to make the team and do their job without a lot of fanfare or attention.

I really don't think Betts is going to stonewall him. Betts might win the battle in camp, but I don't think it's anywhere close to the given that some people have it down as.

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09-18-2006, 01:13 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by dubi on BB
On the other hand, the reporter who printed the Zherdev rumor the other day says he got it from a credible source, but that it was more wishful thinking on the part of Columbus than anything else (in asking for Montoya and a #1 pick). He asked Maloney about it today and got nothing out of him, as he expected before even asking.

One thing I am learning during this process of attending camp and hanging out with real sources and with reporters who have free access to these and other real sources is that the people online who go by pseudonyms and claim to have sources must have other sources than the ones I and other reporters are exposed to, because we don't hear anything close to resembling the online rumors -- that has a lot to do with the Leetch situation, but is true in other cases as well.
i like this guy

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09-18-2006, 01:16 AM
  #55
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i have to say i've never really been into BB before or paid attention but i've read the camp reports over the past few days and am impressed.. i really like this place and i will subscribe to them

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09-18-2006, 01:42 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by in the hall View Post
i like this guy
Yeah, Zipay seems to have some real interest!

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Originally Posted by in the hall View Post
i have to say i've never really been into BB before or paid attention but i've read the camp reports over the past few days and am impressed.. i really like this place and i will subscribe to them
I am extremely pleased with their paper, defenitly on par with the coverege of the camp online. Its about 25 pages loaded with unique coverege from established guys like Zipay (NYR), Dallapina (NYR) and Berlett (HFD) + a great focus on prospects, and some general hockeycolumns from older hockeypeople with accosiations to the NYR.

They are so much better then the ordninary "fan-magazines" who usually have a readergroup of the middle age of 15. To be honest I am suprised that any other team then Toronto Maple Leafs have such great coverege in this league. They are defenitly on the field covering this team, there is always a ton of tibits from youth camps, main camp, the stands in HFD, lockerroom in NY.

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09-18-2006, 07:36 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Maybe, but I think there is this notion that Renney is loyal to these guys to a fault and I just don't see it and the moves dictate otherwise.
Admittedly, I am one of the ones who thinks that way of Renney. I agree with you, in the context that for the role that he will play at the NHL level, Helminen is as ready to play as anyone. However, it does not seem that Renney will afford for him the chance to win a spot,preferring what he has, as opposed to what he could have. I think that Helminen will be an upgrade over Betts, Ortmeyer or a Hossa, but I do not thing that Renney will give him the chance to do so.

Renney is a strange case. He is intelligent, but he seems (and I think that we touched on this last year) incredibly stubborn. There is no room within his head for adjustments to his thinking. It is like he has this belief about the way things "should" work and will not allow for anything to sway him. That is why good coaches coach circles around him. He believes that Jagr's natural talent will be enough to overcome everything else. As such, he NEVER puts him into a more advantageous position on the ice. Renney NEVER utilized the last line change on home ice to his advantage. Even when it was painfully obvious that Jagr was getting shut down by Madden and Pandolfo, Renney did not to anything to change. When it was obvious that a one-armed Rucinsky was completely ineffective, Renny refused to remove him from the top-2 lines.

This thinking is a part of the Prucha issues. Prucha did everything he could have done to stake his case that he is a top-2 line player. On any other team in the league, under any other coach, his place on the top lines would not be an issue. But not with Renney. He seems convinced that Prucha does not belong on the top-2 lines. All of his actions and statements confirm this. He has no room for adjustments to his thinking. Those were the big negatives that I took from him last year and it has not changed. I would find it fairly disturbing to see Prucha not on the top-2 lines. And I would find it fairly disturbing if a player like Helminen does not receive a real chance becuase of Renney's loyalty to the likes of Hossa & Betts.

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09-18-2006, 09:30 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Maybe, but I think there is this notion that Renney is loyal to these guys to a fault and I just don't see it and the moves dictate otherwise. Losing Betts did hurt the team, but it also hurt the team because there wasn't a viable option to really replace him at the time.
Though I don't think thats really even an issue. This notion comes from one guy who couldn't for his life understand how Pck didn't make the team ahead of Rozival/Malik/Poti out of camp last season, Renney again had some hidden agenda if I recall correctly. If someone like Pck, fine, but if someone can't see that Pck didn't have anything to do in the NHL last season its something else. He had allot of trouble defensivly in HFD. We all ranked him 17th overall in our prospect ranking, its maybe not so strange that we didn't replace our nr 1 D with our 17th ranked prospect...

On us not having any options last season, to my knowledge Helminen where in the organization last season too, he where 23 years old at the time, but of course Renney might have jepordized his hidden agenda to give Blair Betts ice time if he gave Helminen a chance to showcast himself last season. Dunno... I mean I saw Helminen completly collapse last year in the AHL PO's. He is listed as 60 190 but is probably closer to 511 180, that showed in the Calder Cup where he got man handled down low.

Betts did fairly well last season against guys like Peter Forsberg, Mats Sundin, Lecavalier, Yashin, Thornton, Eric Staal among many others, he where our 3rd line center and check the results. If 511 180 lbs (at the very most) of Dwight Helminen gets caught in his own end against one of thoose guys it would be a disaster. And its not like he is especially good in any other area of his game, or good enough so he could shut down even a Alex Yashin with it. I mean he couldn't handle Konopka in the Calder Cup.

Like we all can see with Pck now, there wheren't a hidden agenda back then not to play him, there won't be a hidden agenda now with Helminen.

I also think that Betts is atleast as good defensivly as Helminen, I have acutally not seen Helminen play especially good defense in the AHL once, I've only seen it in his CV where it says best defensive forward as a 21 year old in the CCHA, Betts is also atleast 40lbs heavier then Helminen. There might be room for 3-4 smaller players per team with the new rules, but for a checkingline center to be 511 and at the most 180 lbs is a really big issue.

The the bottom line, and the only reason I bothered replying, is the talk about Renney's hidden agenda. I could be wrong on Helminen, I have my opinion of him, but I also listens to what everyone else thinks of him, I defenitly hope that I am wrong cause if Helminen could handle everything else his speed is a great addition to our 3rd line, though please just show all the talk of Renney and the brass hidden agenda cause its so darn tiresome to see someone hype a prospect in june, and then rant 2000 posts from September to May on the subject of Renney not playing that kid cause he is a vet-lover or has some other hidden agenda issues (or what was it in this case, somehting subconscious?), and then when everybody have seen that the kid just didn't have it find a new kid the next summer, then send away 2000 more posts, on this kid.

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09-18-2006, 01:51 PM
  #59
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The the bottom line, and the only reason I bothered replying, is the talk about Renney's hidden agenda. I could be wrong on Helminen, I have my opinion of him, but I also listens to what everyone else thinks of him, I defenitly hope that I am wrong cause if Helminen could handle everything else his speed is a great addition to our 3rd line, though please just show all the talk of Renney and the brass hidden agenda cause its so darn tiresome to see someone hype a prospect in june, and then rant 2000 posts from September to May on the subject of Renney not playing that kid cause he is a vet-lover or has some other hidden agenda issues (or what was it in this case, somehting subconscious?), and then when everybody have seen that the kid just didn't have it find a new kid the next summer, then send away 2000 more posts, on this kid.
Overblowing, it a bit, no? I do not recall anyone stating that Renney has a "hidden agenda". And why not just say what you mean? Instead of beating around the bush with ominous quotes about "someone". I, for one, do not seem to recall many threads that were calling Renney a "vet-lover". Nor do I think any threads exist that deal with Renney's "hidden agenda".

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09-18-2006, 02:18 PM
  #60
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From BB:

"Lee Falardeau, (who) quietly crafted a better camp than anyone could have expected from him."

This is another guy to keep an eye on.

No way he makes it this year and maybe never, but IMO you can't count him out either.

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09-18-2006, 02:22 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
No way he makes it this year and maybe never, but IMO you can't count him out either.
Count him out? No. Expect him to be anything but a 4th line center, at best? Yes. And (please keep the scythe sheathed while I make this statement) even if he does exceed expectations and makes it as a 4th line center, is that something to get excited about from your only pick in amongst the first 60 choices?

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09-18-2006, 02:26 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Count him out? No. Expect him to be anything but a 4th line center, at best? Yes. And (please keep the scythe sheathed while I make this statement) even if he does exceed expectations and makes it as a 4th line center, is that something to get excited about from your only pick in amongst the first 60 choices?
does this need to be rehashed yet again? especially in response to a comment that doesn't deserve such a response?

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09-18-2006, 02:35 PM
  #63
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Cmon Levitate, everything in this thread is rehashed.

Renney

Prucha

Helminen

There is really nothing in this thread that hasn't been said a thousand times. It's your typical offseason convo

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09-18-2006, 02:40 PM
  #64
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bah, I don't buy that excuse

some things are actually worth rehashing

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09-18-2006, 05:07 PM
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No reason to be rude TB.

It was not my intention to get this debate started again. I'm only saying that Lee is doing well. From my vantage point he's been characterized as worthless from the time he was drafted. That makes him an underdog in my book, and I pull for the underdog. Especially a hard working one like Falardeau.

As I have said before guys like Hollweg, Falardeau, and Jessiman that some folks may have written off, could in fact provide us all with some big surprises down the road.

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09-18-2006, 05:15 PM
  #66
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No reason to be rude TB.
Not being rude (I thought that the scythe comment accents the humor, not rudeness). I know it was not your intent to get everything started again....I just cannot help myself but comment on the comments regarding Lee.

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09-18-2006, 05:16 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
does this need to be rehashed yet again? especially in response to a comment that doesn't deserve such a response?
I guess, I must have come off in a completely different manner than I intended too. I actually meant for there to be some humor involved.

Sorry, Pizza. A misunderstanding.

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09-18-2006, 07:58 PM
  #68
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No problem. No offense taken.

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09-18-2006, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
I guess, I must have come off in a completely different manner than I intended too. I actually meant for there to be some humor involved.

Sorry, Pizza. A misunderstanding.
yeah, and sorry if I came across snippy with that comment.

We've just had the conversation so many times

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09-19-2006, 01:15 AM
  #70
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Nice to see some of these guys finally putting it together. Don't think Falardeau has it to be more than a 4th liner but he's become something of a real prospect anyway. Seeing Jessiman with 2 goals in the game today and second excellent day in a row is certainly welcome. Montoya has been strong so far and has the start tonight. And it seems that Richter has been playing solid. Right now it seems like Dawes, Dubinsky and maybe Helminen are the best bets of the forwards. Jarkko will need to pick his game up some.

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09-19-2006, 01:54 AM
  #71
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Overblowing, it a bit, no? I do not recall anyone stating that Renney has a "hidden agenda". And why not just say what you mean? Instead of beating around the bush with ominous quotes about "someone". I, for one, do not seem to recall many threads that were calling Renney a "vet-lover". Nor do I think any threads exist that deal with Renney's "hidden agenda".
Trust me, allot of words where thrown around that included vets and euros before last season. Whats up with the memory?

I might be overreacting, but you push everything too far. Look, I have no problem with what your opinion of Betts/Helminen/Renney are, we all think diffrent and we all are right at times and wrong at times.

But please, could you just once think that it might be you who have the wrong impression of Helminen and that its not something subconcious with Renney. I mean we all agree that he have a good eye for talent, but you state that "he don't have room for adjustments in his head". Or in the past that its love for vets or love for Euros.

The reason I care is that I don't want to see every GDT up untill January be full with posts on how Betts sucks, have hands of stones, and how Renney is a idiot for not playing Helminen instead.

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09-19-2006, 08:18 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Admittedly, I am one of the ones who thinks that way of Renney. I agree with you, in the context that for the role that he will play at the NHL level, Helminen is as ready to play as anyone. However, it does not seem that Renney will afford for him the chance to win a spot,preferring what he has, as opposed to what he could have. I think that Helminen will be an upgrade over Betts, Ortmeyer or a Hossa, but I do not thing that Renney will give him the chance to do so.

Renney is a strange case. He is intelligent, but he seems (and I think that we touched on this last year) incredibly stubborn. There is no room within his head for adjustments to his thinking. It is like he has this belief about the way things "should" work and will not allow for anything to sway him. That is why good coaches coach circles around him. He believes that Jagr's natural talent will be enough to overcome everything else. As such, he NEVER puts him into a more advantageous position on the ice. Renney NEVER utilized the last line change on home ice to his advantage. Even when it was painfully obvious that Jagr was getting shut down by Madden and Pandolfo, Renney did not to anything to change. When it was obvious that a one-armed Rucinsky was completely ineffective, Renny refused to remove him from the top-2 lines.

This thinking is a part of the Prucha issues. Prucha did everything he could have done to stake his case that he is a top-2 line player. On any other team in the league, under any other coach, his place on the top lines would not be an issue. But not with Renney. He seems convinced that Prucha does not belong on the top-2 lines. All of his actions and statements confirm this. He has no room for adjustments to his thinking. Those were the big negatives that I took from him last year and it has not changed. I would find it fairly disturbing to see Prucha not on the top-2 lines. And I would find it fairly disturbing if a player like Helminen does not receive a real chance becuase of Renney's loyalty to the likes of Hossa & Betts.
Welcome to my world, TB. I predicted more or less all of this, did I not? Not that I share Renney philosophy, but I understand where he is coming from. It is not so much a matter of loyalty, but rather convenience. He might realize that better options may be available, but it is not a priority for him to explore it at this stage of team development.

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09-19-2006, 08:48 AM
  #73
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Trust me, allot of words where thrown around that included vets and euros before last season. Whats up with the memory?
You tell me. There WERE words thrown about Euros, but that was the baseless statements that some of us (the posters) simply did not like Euros. And as for the vets, as I recall the arguments were that Renney had a different tolerance for vet mistakes as opposed to rookie mistakes. So you tell me "what's up with the memory".
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I might be overreacting, but you push everything too far.
Such as?
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Look, I have no problem with what your opinion of Betts/Helminen/Renney are, we all think diffrent and we all are right at times and wrong at times.
Likewise with any of your opinions, Ola.But please, could you just once think that it
Quote:
might be you who have the wrong impression of Helminen and that its not something subconcious with Renney.
I call 'em like I see 'em. And right now, my impression is that Helminen is not going to get a fair chance to with a center spot. MAYBE Ortmeyer's unfortunate circumstance will allow for him to compete with Hossa for a 4th line wing spot. I see more out of Helminen than I ever did out of Moore of Betts. And his play and pure stats show that.
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I mean we all agree that he have a good eye for talent, but you state that "he don't have room for adjustments in his head".
I do state that and am not the only one. And, frankly, even if I was the only one, it would make no difference. Renney is very intelligent, but also very stuborn. He believes that what he has thought through will prevail over anything else. He get circles coached around him by the good coaches in the league (see Hitchcock). Renney has shown that he will not, seemingly stubbornly, adjust his game plan or his thinking.
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Or in the past that its love for vets or love for Euros
You are trying hard to oversimplify an argument to make it fit your merit. I did not state that he has a love for vets. I stated over and over again that a rookie will not recieve a chance to beat out a vet for a spot. What of it? I still believe so and there have been no actions taken to make me change my mind. The "love of Euros" is being overblown as well by you. The ONLY thing that you could possibly be referring to is my statement from last year that Renney refused to discipline any Czech players. Possibly due to Jagr. Again, what of it? It is not like I am wrong. Or if you think I am, then prove me wrong.
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The reason I care is that I don't want to see every GDT up untill January be full with posts on how Betts sucks, have hands of stones, and how Renney is a idiot for not playing Helminen instead.
Then don't read the GDT threads.

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09-19-2006, 09:19 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
The reason I care is that I don't want to see every GDT up untill January be full with posts on how Betts sucks, have hands of stones, and how Renney is a idiot for not playing Helminen instead.

We have way too many smart posters that know "pure stats" don't tell the whole story. Betts wins faceoffs and Betts kills penalties...Is Helminen a better player I don't know nobody does but he should get his shot at some point this year. To many posters want instant gratifacation when it comes to these prospects but it doesn't work like that.

Moving Helminen to wing doesn't make much sense in my book. We have Prucha and possibly Dawes playing left wing to add another small left wing could be asking to much. Helminen and Dawes play big but that doesn't work as well in the NHL...

It's an interesting debate but Betts shouldn't just be written off like he is the next Jeff Toms..

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09-19-2006, 09:30 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post

Moving Helminen to wing doesn't make much sense in my book. We have Prucha and possibly Dawes playing left wing to add another small left wing could be asking to much. Helminen and Dawes play big but that doesn't work as well in the NHL...

It's an interesting debate but Betts shouldn't just be written off like he is the next Jeff Toms..
Agree on Betts..I Know he's no worldbeater on offense but the g uy has shown in the NHL that he is a responsible and decent checking C who was the best we had a FOs, something that needs to be considered...Yeah, his offense is usually lacking but I also realaly liked the way he played a solid all around game in the POs---where it really mattered....I have no doubt that Helminen is being given a solid look, the question to Renney is whether he is showing enough to where he will contribute more to the team then Betts...I don't think it goes further then that.....And, more then likely, either Helminen or Immo or even Falarderau (whoever performs better) will be called up the the NHL before you know it when Betts gets injured...

Larry Melnyk is offline   Reply With Quote
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