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Old
09-19-2006, 09:32 AM
  #76
Fletch
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I think Renney's philosophy is simple...

play Jagr as much as possible, ride your goalies and fiddle with the rest of the lineup which is afforded so long as Jagr is dominating.

Helminen may be an upgrade. But Renney saw Betts as a competent third (really fourth) liner who could kill penalties and was one of the team's best faceoff men. While he hass little scoring talent, he did score about 9 goals in less than a full season at the NHL level. So Renney, I think, knows what Betts can provide, as he had played in the NHL before also. He also knows the season is 82 games, and that Betts is injury-prone, and a guy like Helminen doesn't necessarily have to supplant Betts out of camp, but may get that look if he gets injured, or if he struggles.

I don't know where loyalty to either Hossa or Betts would come from, so I'm not sure there's much of an allegiance there. I mentioned why I believe he'd favor Betts over Helminen (and I've said many times that it would take one heck of a camp for Helminen and a not-so-good camp from Betts to see Helminen there instead of Betts, and I agree with that thinking if Renney is also thinking that way). Many coaches favor guys with NHL experience over those without, even for third and fourth line players who also help out on specialty teams. Without an 'open' spot, it's often tough for a rookie to crack the lineup.

Prucha's a different story. I personally would not mind Prucha on a third line if he wasn't playing with a guy like Betts. If it was Immonen, or Dubinsky, and Ward, I wouldn't be too upset. I do think it's a shame that he will lose PP time (or I believe he will), but a guy like Shanny brings a bit more to the table. It will be interesting to see how Prucha fits in this season. Sounds like the second line left wing spot may be open for him, or someone else. I'm curious to see how the PP will shake-out.

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09-19-2006, 09:54 AM
  #77
Larry Melnyk
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Fletch--Agreed on everything you said about Betts, Helminen, Prucha and the rest..The bottom line is that we finally have plenty enough good young (26/27 and under) players that are ready or just about ready for the nHL and some will just have to wait a little longer while getting stronger/better in Hartford...Or traded.....Hell, Betts could separate his shoulder again tonight and a top 4 C spot will be staring Helminen in tghe face...Long season and it's great to have depth..

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09-19-2006, 10:00 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Then don't read the GDT threads.
Most important things first, I survive because of the GDT's!!! You can mess with everything I have, but not the GDT's...

You can watch the games, I can't!

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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Likewise with any of your opinions, Ola.But please, could you just once think that it I call 'em like I see 'em. And right now, my impression is that Helminen is not going to get a fair chance to with a center spot. MAYBE Ortmeyer's unfortunate circumstance will allow for him to compete with Hossa for a 4th line wing spot. I see more out of Helminen than I ever did out of Moore of Betts. And his play and pure stats show that.

I do state that and am not the only one. And, frankly, even if I was the only one, it would make no difference. Renney is very intelligent, but also very stuborn. He believes that what he has thought through will prevail over anything else. He get circles coached around him by the good coaches in the league (see Hitchcock). Renney has shown that he will not, seemingly stubbornly, adjust his game plan or his thinking.

You are trying hard to oversimplify an argument to make it fit your merit. I did not state that he has a love for vets. I stated over and over again that a rookie will not recieve a chance to beat out a vet for a spot. What of it? I still believe so and there have been no actions taken to make me change my mind. The "love of Euros" is being overblown as well by you. The ONLY thing that you could possibly be referring to is my statement from last year that Renney refused to discipline any Czech players. Possibly due to Jagr. Again, what of it? It is not like I am wrong. Or if you think I am, then prove me wrong.
I know you are only stating your opinion and respect what others thinks to. Though it gets so personall for you when you have a stated a opinion that you never lets it go and spin on and on, on the same subject. In the end it just gets ridiculos.

Do you honestly think anyone following the NYR last season really can even understand a argument that "Renney... is very stubborn (not verstaile???)...got circles coached around him by other coaches...." ect. ?

I think Renney had alittle bit too much success with his game plan not to change it, and note that "gameplan" have very little to do with Prucha getting 13.5 minutes of ice time or 14.5 minutes of ice time. The examples you bring up to prove your point are extremely small details. Thats a pretty proven rethoric tactic, if you want to prove A, say that B means A and prove B. Jagr for example, on the ice, played darn well against NJD all year, he played darn well against Madden and Pandolfo all year, the reason for him not playing well against them in the PO's probably where because of his INJURY. You have a point that Renney maybe should have worked harder to get him on the ice against a diffrent line, but at the same time maybe it where good to neutralize Madden and Co. with a one armed JJ. Still its debatable, though it don't prove a darn thing that Renney's game plan sucked or that Renney where coached circles around.

In other areas he where extremely unstubborn last season and tried pretty much every option there was.

Everyone of us who saw Immonen and Pck in HFD quite fast saw that they wouldn't have been upgrades over what we had. I think that its pretty safe to say that Renney knew what he where dooing not playing Immonen over Rucchin. Rucchin brought more to the team in the broad picture.

Again the bottomline is that you want to "prove" that Helminen are better then Betts by stating that Renney got circles coached around him last year (almost comical), that Renney's game plan sucks (did it really?), which is proof of Renney beeing stubborn (is it really proof of that?), which means that since he is stubborn he always sticks with someone on the roster cause he thought that out in advance.

If I where you in this ally (the stubborn sticking with players on the roster part), I would sit back and rethink, maybe its not Renney's talent evaluation, maybe its mine.

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09-19-2006, 10:41 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola;6522062I
know you are only stating your opinion and respect what others thinks to. Though it gets so personall for you when you have a stated a opinion that you never lets it go and spin on and on, on the same subject. In the end it just gets ridiculos.
Just replying to questions or otherwise stating my opinion (again and again).
Quote:
Do you honestly think anyone following the NYR last season really can even understand a argument that "Renney... is very stubborn (not verstaile???)...got circles coached around him by other coaches...." ect. ?
Considering that there were such discussions held here, yes, I believe people can understand such an argument.
Quote:
I think Renney had alittle bit too much success with his game plan not to change it, and note that "gameplan" have very little to do with Prucha getting 13.5 minutes of ice time or 14.5 minutes of ice time. The examples you bring up to prove your point are extremely small details. Thats a pretty proven rethoric tactic, if you want to prove A, say that B means A and prove B.
A. Renney's gameplan was a complete success when he had a healthy Jagr dominating games and Lundqvist standing on his head.
B. When Jagr could not dominate or Henke was not making an acrobatic save every 5 minutes, Renney's "gameplan" was not quite so successful.
There is no rhetoric. Renney never adjusted his gameplan. He never utilized the last line change when he had home ice, and allowed the opposing coach to dictate the matchups at every opportunity. Renney got his matchup when the opposing coach allowed him to match Jagr against the opposite top line. Coaches like Hitch or Lams never allowed for that to happen.
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Jagr for example, on the ice, played darn well against NJD all year, he played darn well against Madden and Pandolfo all year, the reason for him not playing well against them in the PO's probably where because of his INJURY.
I disagree. I think that Madden & Pandolfo gave Jagr the most trouble and had enough games where Jagr was not a factor long before there was any injury to blame.
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You have a point that Renney maybe should have worked harder to get him on the ice against a diffrent line, but at the same time maybe it where good to neutralize Madden and Co. with a one armed JJ.
You are worried about neutralizing Madden & Pandolfo, as opposed to Gionta, Gomez & Elias?
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Still its debatable, though it don't prove a darn thing that Renney's game plan sucked or that Renney where coached circles around.
To me, it showed a deficiency within his coaching. He has yet to show that he is capable of making in-game adjustments. Renney is a great teacher, but he has not shown the ability to adjust his tactics. And when the opposing coach gets to have whatever matchups he wants, while his team is the road team, I'd say that is a big sign of "getting circles coached around".
How short of a memory people have. There were enough alarm bells going off in games not dominated by Jagr & Henke. How about the fact that Renney could not find a way to get the PP to function without flowing every single shot through Jagr? How about the way that the PK utterly collapsed at the end of last year and the playoffs? Special teams is 100% coaching.
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In other areas he where extremely unstubborn last season and tried pretty much every option there was.
Huh? I am missing your point here. What every other option and to what situation are you referring to?
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Everyone of us who saw Immonen and Pck in HFD quite fast saw that they wouldn't have been upgrades over what we had.
Tough to say everyone when there were differing opinions on both of them. I'd say by the sheer fact that you have differing opinions, the "everyone" aspect of this is out of the window.
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I think that its pretty safe to say that Renney knew what he where doing not playing Immonen over Rucchin. Rucchin brought more to the team in the broad picture.
That is why this a message board. Opinions vary. The wisdom of playing an injured and ineffective Rucchin over anyone is debateable. The wisdom of playing a one-armed and utterly ineffective Rucinsky over anyone is debateable.
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Again the bottomline is that you want to "prove" that Helminen are better then Betts by stating that Renney got circles coached around him last year (almost comical)
You are right. It is pretty comical. It is comical that you can take two of my completely seperate arguments about two completely different things and lump them in together in an effort to create a debate that no one is debating. If you can show my just one example anywhere that I state that Helminen vs. Betts has anything to do with Renney's coaching prowers, you have a point. If you cannot, then please let's not try to invent debates that no one is debating.
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that Renney's game plan sucks (did it really?),
I'd say that this issue has already been addressed. Want to say "sucks" or call it what you will, you are choosing to take what I say and paint your own picture with it.
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which is proof of Renney beeing stubborn (is it really proof of that?)
See above.
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which means that since he is stubborn he always sticks with someone on the roster cause he thought that out in advance.
Not following you here.
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If I where you in this ally (the stubborn sticking with players on the roster part), I would sit back and rethink, maybe its not Renney's talent evaluation, maybe its mine.
Again, not following you here. Are you trying to tell me that I should not form my own opinion and simply take what is given to me as gospel? If that was the case, then why was this board in an uproar over the Lindros trade? After all, management told all of us just how good of a deal it was.

I really do not need to rethink anything, Ola. I have formed my opinions, debated them and defended them. Sometimes, actions occur that cause me to change them and sometimes they do not. However, if it is ok with you, I will continue on my course of action. If it is only ok with you, though.

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09-19-2006, 11:17 AM
  #80
Ola
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Good then, if you aren't dooing it now, I guess I can count on you not bringing up the hidden agenda issues (vetlover/eurolover) in the future.

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09-19-2006, 12:04 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Good then, if you aren't dooing it now, I guess I can count on you not bringing up the hidden agenda issues (vetlover/eurolover) in the future.
Until I see any reason to bring anything up (and I would still challenge you to find any type of "vetlover/eurolover" or "hidden agenda" statements made by me), then I am not bringing it up. When I think that there is a need to do so, I will do so.

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09-19-2006, 02:08 PM
  #82
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I'm not sure how anyone can make a fair comparison between Betts and Helminen at this point. Betts has proven he can skate, defend, and draw at the NHL level -- he has to go into the face-off circle agains the NHL's best offensive players, and he wins more often than not. He doesn't score, but then that's not where his talents lie.

Helminen hasn't played a single minute in the NHL. He isn't even first in line for that -- he's a country mile behind Dubinsky at this time among prospects at center, half a mile behind Immonen, and Hollweg will move to the middle if needed before Helminen gets a call-up. That's not because anyone doesn't like Helminen, it's beacaus he hasn't shown that he is NHL-ready.

No disrespect intended, but have any of you who advocate for Helminen actually seen him play, or are you going by what you've heard about him? I watched him all week long against a combination of NHLers, AHLers, and prospects, and he did not stand out, except for one scrimmage when he played with Dawes and Dawes dominated -- Dawes is the talent here and Helminen benefitted last year by playing on a line with him.

The folks who cover the team on a regular basis have been going into the locker room chasing Dawes and Dubinsky, and after the last two days Jessiman. No one has sought out Helminen -- he is not an NHL player yet, and barring a slew of injuries, he may never be.

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09-19-2006, 02:16 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Dubi View Post
I'm not sure how anyone can make a fair comparison between Betts and Helminen at this point. Betts has proven he can skate, defend, and draw at the NHL level -- he has to go into the face-off circle agains the NHL's best offensive players, and he wins more often than not. He doesn't score, but then that's not where his talents lie.

Helminen hasn't played a single minute in the NHL. He isn't even first in line for that -- he's a country mile behind Dubinsky at this time among prospects at center, half a mile behind Immonen, and Hollweg will move to the middle if needed before Helminen gets a call-up. That's not because anyone doesn't like Helminen, it's beacaus he hasn't shown that he is NHL-ready.

No disrespect intended, but have any of you who advocate for Helminen actually seen him play, or are you going by what you've heard about him? I watched him all week long against a combination of NHLers, AHLers, and prospects, and he did not stand out, except for one scrimmage when he played with Dawes and Dawes dominated -- Dawes is the talent here and Helminen benefitted last year by playing on a line with him.

The folks who cover the team on a regular basis have been going into the locker room chasing Dawes and Dubinsky, and after the last two days Jessiman. No one has sought out Helminen -- he is not an NHL player yet, and barring a slew of injuries, he may never be.
interesting i always thought helminen was a NHL caliber prospect, thanks for the insigh

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09-19-2006, 02:25 PM
  #84
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So only two days into camp instead becomes already two days into camp. Which means any athlete competing for a roster spot had best step up by the end of tomorrow's Blue-White intrasquad game, the way Nigel Dawes, Brandon Dubinsky, Dwight Helminen, Ivan Baranka and Martin Richter have thus far
http://www.nypost.com/seven/09172006...rry_brooks.htm


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09-19-2006, 02:28 PM
  #85
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Using Brooks as a source is dangerous. Has Larry showed you over the years he can tell a good game or good player from a bad game or bad player?

I like Helminen but I doubt he makes the team and shouldn't over Betts at this point. Maybe as a mid-season callup but not now. The Rangers have too many questions on the PK to break another new guy in at the expense of a proven penalty killer..

Fans want to push prospects into situations they are clearly not ready for. I think Helminen will be a good pro but he needs more time...

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09-19-2006, 02:29 PM
  #86
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I'm not sure how anyone can make a fair comparison between Betts and Helminen at this point. Betts has proven he can skate, defend, and draw at the NHL level -- he has to go into the face-off circle agains the NHL's best offensive players, and he wins more often than not. He doesn't score, but then that's not where his talents lie.
No one is making a comparison, they are saying they are both going to be aiming for the same spot.

The comparisons come to where they were at the AHL level playing the role of defensive center.

Quote:
Helminen hasn't played a single minute in the NHL. He isn't even first in line for that -- he's a country mile behind Dubinsky at this time among prospects at center, half a mile behind Immonen, and Hollweg will move to the middle if needed before Helminen gets a call-up. That's not because anyone doesn't like Helminen, it's beacaus he hasn't shown that he is NHL-ready.
Dubinsky and Helminen should not be fighting for the same spot, at least hopefully not. Dubinsky, along with Immonen should be battling for a second line MAYBE third line spot, there job is to be offensive players. Helminen should be battling for a defensive spot, that is his strength. Any offense, if it it exists at a higher level, will not be what he should be showcasing.

And giving Helminen a chance to show IF he is an NHL ready is exactly what the camps and preseason is for. People seem to forget that Betts, Moore and company were far from givens last year at this time and the same comments were made about them.

Quote:
No disrespect intended, but have any of you who advocate for Helminen actually seen him play, or are you going by what you've heard about him? I watched him all week long against a combination of NHLers, AHLers, and prospects, and he did not stand out, except for one scrimmage when he played with Dawes and Dawes dominated -- Dawes is the talent here and Helminen benefitted last year by playing on a line with him.
I don't think anyone is or should be expecting Helminen to be a scorer nor challanging for a top 6 spot, they are looking at him as a 4th line center. And much like Moore, Betts and others didn't get noticed last year, the same will happen here. Hollweg last season was coming off an up and down AHL season that didn't see him score remotely close to where he was expected. Moore came in with another average AHL season in which he was (like Helminen) battling size issues, Betts came in without getting through a full season in years and questions of whether he can hold up to a full schedule.

There are going to be questions here, that's what camp is for, to answer them. Maybe Helminen makes the team, maybe he doesn't, but it is important to understand both the context of what Helminen is trying out for and the context of who came before him.

No one is expecting Helminen to dominate or to be "the talent" on the line. The irony of his play with Dawes is that he was able to put up what he did even. Helminen was and should still be project as a bottom line center IF he makes it.

I think you might be a little off on what the expectations of Helminen should be even if he does make it.

Quote:
The folks who cover the team on a regular basis have been going into the locker room chasing Dawes and Dubinsky, and after the last two days Jessiman. No one has sought out Helminen -- he is not an NHL player yet, and barring a slew of injuries, he may never be.
And again no one usually seeks those players out. No one sought out an Ortmeyer or a Betts or a Moore or those guys. People want to talk to the guys who might someday be "core" players not necessarily those who are going to round a team. That's really nothing new at all. Dubinsky and Dawes are not only better prospects than Helminen, but they are seen as NHL scorers. Most journalists aren't going to seek out future bottom 6 forwards or a guy who is battling for a fourth line spot. It has nothing really to do with whether the guy ever makes it or not.

When I worked in the industry (and it's looking like I might be heading back in that direction in a few months if this deal with my business goes through) reporters never sought out the bottom line prospects unless they were an enforcer. They want the guys who are the top prospects and who the casual fan is going to want to read about. Guys who project as 4th line (maybe third line) players don't arrive with a flurry of fanfare nor should they, they aren't the team's top prospects nor are the average readers interested in them. But that doesn't mean they can't challange for a spot to play THAT role, it just means they aren't going to get a spotlight on them for doing it.

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09-19-2006, 02:34 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
Using Brooks as a source is dangerous. Has Larry showed you over the years he can tell a good game or good player from a bad game or bad player?

I like Helminen but I doubt he makes the team and shouldn't over Betts at this point. Maybe as a mid-season callup but not now. The Rangers have too many questions on the PK to break another new guy in at the expense of a proven penalty killer..

Fans want to push prospects into situations they are clearly not ready for. I think Helminen will be a good pro but he needs more time...
No one knows if he is ready yet.

For pete's sake these guys haven't played one god damn preseason game yet and people have already decideed they aren't ready.

Let's see how these guys actually perform in camp and in a role against each other before we determine who can step in where.

12 months ago we couldn't tell who out of Hollweg, Moore, Betts, Giroux, Murray and company was going to shine in camp and prove ready but now all of a sudden we have everything figured out?

This time last year we talked about the first wave were not the best kids yet and that would come in time and suddenly all these guys are irreplaceable and anyone coming after them stands no chance.

If the guys who do this year round need to keep players in a camp to figure that out than no one (myself included) can say just yet.

It's very possible Helminen doesn't make it, but for god's sake let's at least get the guys who did good in scrimmages into some preseason games before we make those calls.

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09-19-2006, 02:37 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
Using Brooks as a source is dangerous. Has Larry showed you over the years he can tell a good game or good player from a bad game or bad player?

I like Helminen but I doubt he makes the team and shouldn't over Betts at this point. Maybe as a mid-season callup but not now. The Rangers have too many questions on the PK to break another new guy in at the expense of a proven penalty killer..

Fans want to push prospects into situations they are clearly not ready for. I think Helminen will be a good pro but he needs more time...
Why is it dangerous?Larry has as much judgement as some of the other people who follow this team.I'm not talking about Helminen VS. Betts.My point is if anyone uses the amount of media coverage a player receives as a barometer for which player makes the team well then Helminen was also mentioned in an article.It's stupid

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09-19-2006, 02:37 PM
  #89
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BTW SOS that wasn't directed AT you, just a general statement about any and all of these prospects.

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09-19-2006, 02:41 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Dubi View Post
I'm not sure how anyone can make a fair comparison between Betts and Helminen at this point. Betts has proven he can skate, defend, and draw at the NHL level -- he has to go into the face-off circle agains the NHL's best offensive players, and he wins more often than not. He doesn't score, but then that's not where his talents lie.

Helminen hasn't played a single minute in the NHL. He isn't even first in line for that -- he's a country mile behind Dubinsky at this time among prospects at center, half a mile behind Immonen, and Hollweg will move to the middle if needed before Helminen gets a call-up. That's not because anyone doesn't like Helminen, it's beacaus he hasn't shown that he is NHL-ready.

No disrespect intended, but have any of you who advocate for Helminen actually seen him play, or are you going by what you've heard about him? I watched him all week long against a combination of NHLers, AHLers, and prospects, and he did not stand out, except for one scrimmage when he played with Dawes and Dawes dominated -- Dawes is the talent here and Helminen benefitted last year by playing on a line with him.

The folks who cover the team on a regular basis have been going into the locker room chasing Dawes and Dubinsky, and after the last two days Jessiman. No one has sought out Helminen -- he is not an NHL player yet, and barring a slew of injuries, he may never be.



Pretty much exactly my same argument ive used on this board when people start saying Dwight is a better fit then Betts.

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09-19-2006, 02:43 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Dubi View Post
No disrespect intended, but have any of you who advocate for Helminen actually seen him play, or are you going by what you've heard about him? I watched him all week long against a combination of NHLers, AHLers, and prospects, and he did not stand out, except for one scrimmage when he played with Dawes and Dawes dominated -- Dawes is the talent here and Helminen benefitted last year by playing on a line with him.
I would love to resond in detail to your post, but Edge already beat me to it and stated things I would have stated, only better off course.

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09-19-2006, 02:46 PM
  #92
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I agree with everything...

you said Edge. I just also want to remind people that there's a good chance that at some point in this season we will see Dubinsky, Immonen, Dawes and Helminen in a Rangers uniform, taking an NHL shift. Perhaps it's not out of the gate from camp/preseason, but at some point. It's a long season. Out of camp it will be difficult for Helminen to supplant Betts for reasons I've mentioned in previous posts, but will Betts play in 82 games? Doubt it. Will Helminen play so well in Hartford that Renney thinks he needs to at least try him to get things going if the Rangers are in a slump? Perhaps. I'm not the biggesst Helminen backer, but I saw him more two seasons ago than last season, and only saw him a few times last season, which isn't a representative sample, however, his advancement from two seasons ago to last season is something to take notice (maybe it helped having the linemates he did, but then again, maybe they benefitted from him).

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09-19-2006, 02:50 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post


Pretty much exactly my same argument ive used on this board when people start saying Dwight is a better fit then Betts.
What they've SAID is that Dwight performed the role better than Betts are the lower levels and has the POTENTIAL to be better. Whether or not he actually achieves that potential or is ready to take on that role (or ready to get a shot) is what camps like these help to show.

No one is giving Dwight the spot, they are saying they wouldn't be surprised if he EARNS it or think they he will win the spot.

And I am starting to lose my patients the last week or two arguing points that are being twisted and turned by a select group of "newer" members on these boards.

I advocate here what I've advocated for years: Giving these kids a shot to compete for a spots, some of which I personally expect to win the spots, but all of whom I expect will have to EARN them.

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09-19-2006, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
Pretty much exactly my same argument ive used on this board when people start saying Dwight is a better fit then Betts.
This is becoming a bottom-2 line version of the Montoya/Lundqvist debate. Helminen has shown EVERYTHING that Betts has shown by the same age. Everything and more I should say. He has shown two things that Betts NEVER showed at the same point of development: 1) He is a much better skater than Betts could ever dream of being. It is fair to say that Helminen can skate circles around Betts & 2) He has shown more of a scoring acumen than both Betts & Dom Moore put together, at the same point of development.

In every other fashion, he has been the equivalent of Betts, and that includes the latter's much ballyhoed face-off abilities.

No one is saying that Helminen will definetly make the better NHL player, HOWEVER the indicators are there. All the peripheral stats that make you argue for Betts, are there for Dwight. In fact, there are more things to like in Dwight's game. Such as the fact that he is actually more of a physical presence and is much faster. To blindly dismiss Dwight simply becuase Betts was here last year is extremely short-sighted.

Yes, I think that Helminen can do a better job as a 4th line center than Betts can. I believe that Helminen's top-side is that of a 3rd line center, in the Todd Marchant mold. I do not believe that Betts is anything but a 4th line center. Not that there is anything wrong with being such, but it is what it is. However, as I have stated, I doubt that Helminen will get the chance to beat Betts out. Not that I do not think that he is incapable of having a better camp, but he would have to have an extremely better camp, while Betts would have to have an extremely bad one. All things being equal, if Helminen is having a fantastic camp and Betts is having an ok camp, Helmine does not beat him out.

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09-19-2006, 02:52 PM
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All I can say is that it's a good thing that the games are finally gonna be played.

The nerves seem to be getting a little frayed around here.

Be of good cheer folks, hockey is back. Let's Go Rangers.

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09-19-2006, 03:00 PM
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All I want is to see what these kids can do in the camps.

Too many people here (especially too many who came out of nowhere this summer) seem to have everything figured out and frankly some of the reasons involve the twisting of what people are saying and arguing with themself.

All I want is two things:

1. To see what our players can do in camp.

2. Have the best players win and get chances if what they've done up to that point warrants it.

Instead I get into arguments about how irreplaceable Ortmeyer, Betts and (before he was traded) Moore is. I debate the merits of not waiting and seeing how goalies pan out and how anyone, including the most amazing hockey minds in the world can wouldn't wait to see how players actually play in actual preseason games before deciding who is or isn't ready.

All I want is to see how these guys actually perform.

No one seems to want to see how anyone actually plays anymore because it might challange theories they've convinced themselves are so full proof.

Heck I'm not the biggest Farladeau or Jessiman fan in the world, but I want to see how they play and develop. From this I'll find out if I was right or wrong, but not seeing them play doesn't do either no matter how many layers of horse **** I wrap my seedling of an idea in.

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09-19-2006, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
And I am starting to lose my patients the last week or two arguing points that are being twisted and turned by a select group of "newer" members on these boards.
The very simple solution is to not argue with this select "newer" group.

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09-19-2006, 03:15 PM
  #98
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What's really great to me is how much I learn about hockey on this board.

There are some pretty good hockey minds that post here and other places. I really appreciate that. Looking at all the different sites and reading the good stuff from different posters just reminds me that being a Ranger fan just means you get more.

It's also great to see every one fired up and passionate, but let's try and keep it civil guys.

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09-19-2006, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
but let's try and keep it civil guys.
If not, you can always break the scythe out. I trust that you keep it polished and sharp?

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09-19-2006, 03:31 PM
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I think the ones of us who have seen allot of Helminen in HFD just are suprised that people see him as a candidate to ever beat out Betts.

Helminen will never be a top 2 line player, but in HFD he have not proved himself as a defensive center. Year one he played wing on a 4th line or in the ECHL, year 2, he centered a all offense line with Nigel Dawes and Genoway on the flanks. While he did that really well, what stood out where thats line offensive work, their energy in the attacking zone, in a pretty weak AHL.

In the Calder Cup the ones of us who followed HFD saw Helminen having allot of defensive trouble, which resulted in the Genoway-Helminen-Dawes line actually beeing broken up at times, with the result of Helminen getting less ice time. He finnished the PO's with a minus 11 and where a huge dissapointment there.

Though I also think that Helminen must show much more then what people here think to come close to making it to the NHL. He is really small, probably around 511 and 180 lbs. He would be the smallest checkingline center in the league. If you are gooing to make it as the smallest player in one cathegory you must be darn good. Just having avg. hands for example pretty much makes it impossible for him to take the final step, its a obstecle he must overcome.

I wouldn't call Helminen a bust, he have always been a longshot, and I still hope that he will be able to overcome his obstacles, cause IF he can get his game to the level it takes his speed would be a huge asset on a depth line.

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