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Jagr ready to take the 'C'

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Old
09-20-2006, 09:02 AM
  #26
Fletch
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Why's that, dakose?

I'm not saying I disagree, but with new faces like Cullen, Shanny, Hall, Ward, along with other possible new faces like Dubinsky and Dawes, I think this team is moving away from being Euro-centric (assuming you thought Jagr would be better because of the make-up of the team) to more North American.

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09-20-2006, 09:43 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I'm not saying I disagree, but with new faces like Cullen, Shanny, Hall, Ward, along with other possible new faces like Dubinsky and Dawes, I think this team is moving away from being Euro-centric (assuming you thought Jagr would be better because of the make-up of the team) to more North American.
No, on the contrary. He thought he would not be a good captain simply because he was Eastern European (regardless of the makeup of the team), which stereotypically has not been the source of good leadership through the game. I think now he realizes that is not an issue, and he can lead any group of players, because leadership is all about setting an example, not saying this or that.

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09-20-2006, 10:05 AM
  #28
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I was actually asking...

why you thought Jagr would make a better captain than Mess with the make-up of this team, thinking that Jagr would be better with a group he may feel more comfortable with (realizing that being Eastern European he wasn't comfortable at all, but a team with a lot of compatriots would make him feel more comfortable). I further understand that his hang-up was partially due to him not wanting to talk to the media, and that may've changed, but what about motivating his team, closed door meetings, getting on a player for dogging it, etc., the things we don't see captains do but often hear about?

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09-20-2006, 10:27 AM
  #29
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This team is a lot younger than those managed by Messier; I think they are more susceptible to strong leadership from above than the more talented, more aged Messier squadrons of the mid-90s. Younger people tend to be more motivated by strong examples rather than what is said or who is yelled at- don't get me wrong I think that is very necessary and there are people on the team that serve those roles, but in the end, its Jagr who is the go to guy.

Also take into consideration the bad press Jagr has constantly received in the media vs. what those young impressionable minds see from Jagr first hand -- they realize he is not a selfish primadonna that everyone thinks he is - that causes them to rally behind him and galvanizes the team in an "us vs. them" mentality. Compare this to when Messier rejoined the Rangers after he played with the Canucks- everyone probably looked to the "unflawed Messiah" to fix all the problems within the organization: it was a recipe for lack of accountability and disaster.

We saw this similar contrast last year as the media killed the Rangers at the beginning of the season and the team overcame. Now, I feel the team is really hungry after a bitter, BITTER end of last season to the Devils as that's all anyoen seems to rememeber. The pieces are falling into place for what I beleive will be a remarkable season.

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09-20-2006, 11:22 AM
  #30
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I dunno...

I think many youngsters liked the way Mess handled himself on and off the ice. A guy liked Kovalev, who started with Mess as a 19 year old, seemed to get along just fine with him. And so did Leetch, who was about 24 when Mess came along as a 31 year old Captain; Richter was about 25-26; Graves was about Leetch's age. There was Weight, Amonte, etc. The team when Mess took over wasn't all that old; if you're only singling out one season and one team as a success of Mess' captaincy, then I would only say there were few youngsters (Leetch was still on 26, Richter under 30, Kovalev 20, Zubov about 23, Matteau around 26, Graves around 26, Noonan around 27 - all rough numbers off the top of my head - give or take a year).

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09-20-2006, 11:38 AM
  #31
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Which team was more talented? '94 Rangers or '07 Rangers?

I have a feeling Matteau and Noonan were a bit older, though.

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09-20-2006, 11:43 AM
  #32
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More talented?

actually a tough question. I'd probably go with 1994 though, although talent-wise, 2007 isn't too far behind. Of course, you don't win Cups on talent alone. But what does talent have to do with the equation? It seemed as though you were focused on youth, and the team that Messier joined, which had a good deal of success, was a fairly young team of players.

Matteau was 24 and Noonan was 29. Averages out to the same 26.5 I had.

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09-20-2006, 11:52 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
actually a tough question. I'd probably go with 1994 though, although talent-wise, 2007 isn't too far behind. Of course, you don't win Cups on talent alone. But what does talent have to do with the equation? It seemed as though you were focused on youth, and the team that Messier joined, which had a good deal of success, was a fairly young team of players.

Matteau was 24 and Noonan was 29. Averages out to the same 26.5 I had.
I think in talent does need to factor in. 94 had a lot of first team all-stars in Leetch, Kovalev, Zubov (in terms of sheer talent). They were people who had 7 or 8ratings, and under mess prolly brought the best out of them, making them 9 or 10.

Last years team definitley overacheived with a lot less firepower. I think Jagr got everyone to go from the 4/5 level to 6/7 (needless to say though, I think the coaching staff, etc. had a good deal to do with that though). I dunno, for me it seems like Jagr is a good fit for this team in terms of where they want to be going- Jagr has already proven to the world he can win Stanley Cups and run away with scoring titles; now I think the acheivment is more on a personal level, to see if he can lead men who aren't as talented as he is to victory.

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09-20-2006, 12:08 PM
  #34
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Will Jagr play tonight?

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09-20-2006, 12:17 PM
  #35
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Will Jagr play tonight?
Nope. Im guessing he might play one preseason game who knows which one. Soon er or later they are gonna have to see how his shoulders reacts to contact.

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09-20-2006, 12:18 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by JMMR View Post
Will Jagr play tonight?
no, not until the last pre game.

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09-20-2006, 12:49 PM
  #37
Fletch
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Today's Post...

says Jagr will not get into a game until the last preseason game.

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Old
09-20-2006, 12:58 PM
  #38
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Edge you know more than me that Jagrs biggest problems have been leaked to the press more than most hockey superstars. We all love Messier but we both know he has his demons that have never been aired in public. (nor should they be)
Well don't get me wrong SOS, I'm not looking for perfect people. I think a big part of it's Jagr's personality for that title (at least in the past). Messier, for all his demons, is a natural leader. He really does have a great personality for it, I've never seen Jagr as the type. Even when I worked with him, he's a pretty unique character.

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I think Jagr is a lot like Messier in the sense that Jagr was the second best player on a team in Pittsburgh that on 20 other teams (when hockey was a smaller and better sport) he would've been the best player. Jagr knows what it takes to win in this league (like Messier) and knows what kind of teammates he needs around him to be great. Unlike in Washington the Sather/Maloney listened to the guy and surronded him with players he liked. The other day I wrote about how Messier never ripped a teammate in public but how quickly i forgot his treatment of Nedved during Nedveds first stay here. My point is these guys are only human and reputations are to be taken at face value. Jagr says and did everything the Rangers and fans could ask of a guy. He deserves to wear the C this year and for the duration of his career as a Ranger..
I just am not sure I buy into that personally. Messier was, for all his flaws, very in tune with his locker rooms and motivated people. I don't see that in Jagr who even very recently has a long history of being a flake. Now a guy like Messier got away with things he did because of his reputation. Like anything in life, that will buy someone a little wiggle room. But Jagr frankly hasn't earned that on that kind of level (it's personally a reaosn why I have never been crazy about very young captains).

Jagr is best when HE is happy and love is lavished upon him. I think to some extent he cares about his teammates so long as he gets what he wants out of the deal. So long as everything is going right i don't think there's a problem, but part of being the captain is still being that leader when things AREN'T going the way you'd hoped and even last year you saw traces of the poutiness when the Rangers struggled.

If this team stumbles out of the gate of hits the adversary, I have serious concerns about Jagr's ability to keep it all together. LAst year was a VERY positive year and there were still cracks in the foundation.

The irony of it all is that even in camp this year I see so much more focus about Shanahan and his leadership and everyone seems to be rallying around that, you don't hear that as much with Jagr. Granted he's hurt, but the guys who are captains, hurt or not, usually have a certain air about them. A guy like Shanahan or Kasparitis has that, Jagr really doesn't. Great player, possibly the most talented in the game, but that and a year of not acting like a ***** does frankly not a captain make.

But again I'm not AGAINST the move, I'm just cautious. I want to stress that.

Quote:
My rep does proceed me. Look at my fight with the guy from Endicott last week and tell me it doesn't. I know when I'm wrong and I usually admit to it. I didn't get off on the right foot here but for the most part I've made up for it.
No exactly, that's my point.

You have, but it took you a long time and that was just for a stupid hockey board. Now being the leader of a hockey team and 14 years of a spotty reputation cannot be done in less time. That's really what I was getting at.

That's where a lot of my caution comes from.

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Be cautious all you want but remember this is a superstar we are talking about who at times is going to act like a diva..You know that's the nature of the beast..
Without doubt, but that's why superstars don't always make the best leaders. When all is said and done are doing it because he's such a superstar and so talented on the ice or because he's actually the right guy to actually lead?

I have no doubt about his talent.

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I might be off base but I'm not way off base. We had to read all last year that Jagrs entourage was immune from the same rules as the rest of the team and worse. We have people that post on this board that think we are way to Euro.. Great there have been people calling for Kaspar to get the C but that doesn't mean I'm pointing my finger at those people.
If Jags was from Canada you'd here the same thing, just like you have in the past about wacky Canadian players.

When Keith Tkachuk shows up 30 pounds overweight last year, those fans talked about that as well. I really don't think it has to do with where he was born.

The talk about being way to European was more a style of play thing than what language they were speaking. Obviously Nylander, Jagr and Kaspar were all core players who were European.

But the thing is that leaders are usually the guys who have to motivate the guys who are high maintenance, they aren't the ones who are the high maintenance. Many of the moves last year were done to keep Jagr happy, and they were done because the Rangers knew they HAD to keep him exactly happy.

Contrary to the the overwhelming joy (and often over hype) that last years Rangers got, the Rangers are very much aware of just how much of a ticking time bomb Jagr is.


Quote:
What if Jagr had a human moment and didn't know if being the Captain was the right thing for him? I'm glad he didn't take it last year and it wasn't forced upon him. This year however he wants it and guys like Jagr who want to be Captain have shown leadership skills deserve the job.
Then he probably had a lot of moments throughout the season because this wasn't an isolated moment.

But the question is, if can have such a legit discussion about Jagr's leadership ability (even if we don't agree) than there's probably something there.

The thing is I don't totally buy into the "not knowing" scenario. When your boss comes to you with a promotion, you don't get a year to decide whether you want the responsibility. It especially looks funny when you suddenly want it AFTER the department becomes successful.

I won't say Jagr is without any leadership ability, the question is whether or not the intangibles are there for being a hockey captain. I've seen people who were take charge, strong decision makers but who weren't very good leaders. To me there is so much more to being a captain than putting up points or rooming with a rookie. The captain becomes the emotional barameter for a team and such a big part of it's approach. There are a lot of captains out there, but a much shorter list of good captains. That's why team's are always looking for that leader and personality. Shanahan is an example of a guy they look for. Jagr simply is not, and I truly believe that deep down even the Rangers know that but to some extent what are they going to do?

Jagr has made it known he wants it now and does anyone here honestly believe he'd not pout if he didn't get it? For all the talk about the "new" Jagr I fear that the old Jagr would appear pretty easily in a situation like that.

And that's where my concern comes in, that old Jagr is not as far under the surface as some believe.

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09-20-2006, 01:07 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I won't say Jagr is without any leadership ability, the question is whether or not the intangibles are there for being a hockey captain. I've seen people who were take charge, strong decision makers but who weren't very good leaders. To me there is so much more to being a captain than putting up points or rooming with a rookie. The captain becomes the emotional barameter for a team and such a big part of it's approach. There are a lot of captains out there, but a much shorter list of good captains. That's why team's are always looking for that leader and personality. Shanahan is an example of a guy they look for. Jagr simply is not, and I truly believe that deep down even the Rangers know that but to some extent what are they going to do?
Well said Edge, I agree 100%.

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09-20-2006, 01:10 PM
  #40
Fletch
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dakose...

I'm not sure Jagr has proven to the world he can win a Stanley Cup. They were Lemieux' teams. Jagr was the fourth best scorer on the team the second season (and if he's not scoring, he's not doing much) and was tied with Phil Bourque in points the first season in which they won the Cup. He really hasn't proven much yet (unless you say that Kevin Stevens has proven he can win a Cup since Kevin led the team in goals one season and was second, behind Mario, the second season.

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09-20-2006, 01:29 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I'm not sure Jagr has proven to the world he can win a Stanley Cup. They were Lemieux' teams. Jagr was the fourth best scorer on the team the second season (and if he's not scoring, he's not doing much) and was tied with Phil Bourque in points the first season in which they won the Cup. He really hasn't proven much yet (unless you say that Kevin Stevens has proven he can win a Cup since Kevin led the team in goals one season and was second, behind Mario, the second season.
He by himself, can't win a cup, no of course not, no one can win a cup by himself. But he has two rings, and that alone would be enough for some people ( he did make some contribution to the effort). But to your point, and my point actually, he wants to win a cup, and lead his team to one, something he has yet to prove.

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09-20-2006, 01:53 PM
  #42
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And that's an important distinction.

Jagr hasn't lead a team to the cup yet.

No player wins by themself but there are players who you could say lead a team to the cup.

Some of the names I think of are Brindamour, Stevens, Messier, Gretzky, Limieux, as captains.

Even others guys who wore the A for those teams like Leetch, Graves, Larmer, Francis, Shanahan, etc.

I honestly don't know if Jagr is that type of player and I can really see the media turning on a guy like Jagr is things didn't go well. I can't see Jagr handling something that very well.

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