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Old
11-18-2003, 10:12 AM
  #51
Mr Sakich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman
Because points are the only thing that determines the value of a player I mean at 22 years old Legwand should have had 5 or 6 50 point seasons so far.
I really like legwand. I think he has more value on the oilers. I also think that comrie would contribute more to the preds than legwand. This is the kind of trade where both teams may be better.

Legwand has been "THE MAN" on the preds for 4 years now and his career high is 48 points, followed by 41, 30, and 28. Compare that to comrie's two years of 61 points and on pace for 68 and you may be able to see where I am not convinced that legwand is worth a lot more than comrie. Their values are very comparable.

As for your rookie hamhuis, compare his numbers to bergeron and you will see why I am not excited about giving the ranch for him. He may turn out to be a pretty good dman, but the league is full of pretty good dmen.

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11-18-2003, 10:18 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by triggrman
And IMHO Legwand is more of a first line center than Comrie.
Why, cause he tall?
Cause there is no other reason to say that.
And btw, Arkhipov is garbage. Oilers are not going to trade Comrie with garbage been the centre piece coming back.

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11-18-2003, 10:29 AM
  #53
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I'd have to say I'm skeptical as well, since it's one of those "a friend of mine in the front office of..." types of rumours. Nonetheless, the Preds would make a decent trading partner. However, someone besides Comrie would have to go the other way as well, as we'd be carrying too many forwards for the limit (once Reasoner gets back...assuming Sarno gets sent down, as well). Arkhipov has size, and allegedly plays a decent two way game, but a) he's a year older than Comrie and b) his point totals have dropped each year, from 42 to 35 to a pace of 20+ this season.

The Oates signing certainly helps to alleviate some pressure, so I'd expect Lowe to sit longer and wait. Legwand would be a good flip for Comrie, with perhaps Chimera/Rita going the other way as well for a prospect. I'd be really surprised if Hamhuis (or any other D for that matter) comes back however, because we don't have any room on the D line (again, unless we give up Semenov or Bergeron etc.). There are too many bodies up front with the Oates signing, and we'd have to make room on the defense pairings if Lowe were looking for a current roster D-man coming back as well. I think it was Matheson who said that Lowe was looking for 2 players in exchange for Comrie?

In any case, it's all speculation and while it's fun, I don't think anything will be happening for the time being. Let's see how Oates does...

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11-18-2003, 10:32 AM
  #54
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I thought Lowe was set against trading in teh Western Conference.

Frankly, since we don't need immediate help at center anymore and if he is willing to trade with in the conference I would rather him go the Anaheim route and trade for Lupul.

Isn't he a kid that has franchise player written all over him?

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11-18-2003, 10:48 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by FacelessButcher
Well they did mention Oates to Edmonton but its probably one actual trade results from every 100 rumours. It gives a pretty good indication of who is being shopped though and what teams feel their needs are by what they are recieving.
I thought the Oates thing was mentioned but then dismissed, saying Oates wasn't interested - end of story.

Yeah, lots of rumours all over the place...one of them's bound to be right, although it might just be by accident more than anything. In fact, someone on this board will be able to say "I told you so" once a deal is finally done!

Bart

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Old
11-18-2003, 12:01 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by ZIM
and the number was?
He said he'd be willing to sign for less than $1.13 million/season with another team.. I'm not 100% sure if that offer is on the table still or if K-Lowe missed his "deadline" though..

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Old
11-18-2003, 12:15 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy
Why, cause he tall?
Cause there is no other reason to say that.
And btw, Arkhipov is garbage. Oilers are not going to trade Comrie with garbage been the centre piece coming back.
That's not the only reason but it is certainly one of them. He's tall, strong, a very smooth skater, already good defensively, and has just as much potential as Comrie does as a pt producer. That's the main reason why.

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Old
11-18-2003, 12:25 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Sakich
I really like legwand. I think he has more value on the oilers. I also think that comrie would contribute more to the preds than legwand. This is the kind of trade where both teams may be better.

Legwand has been "THE MAN" on the preds for 4 years now and his career high is 48 points, followed by 41, 30, and 28. Compare that to comrie's two years of 61 points and on pace for 68 and you may be able to see where I am not convinced that legwand is worth a lot more than comrie. Their values are very comparable.
Legwand actually was on pace for a 62 pt season last year. He had 41 pts in 64 games last season. Legwand just has more pull because of his size and defensive ability. For that reason alone, it's going to require an Oiler overpay to get him out of Nashville.

It's not a big deal if you think the values are comparable. Just like with Patrick Marleau in San Jose, big centers with skill are a rare commodity. Fair value or not, it's still going to take an overpay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Sakich
As for your rookie hamhuis, compare his numbers to bergeron and you will see why I am not excited about giving the ranch for him. He may turn out to be a pretty good dman, but the league is full of pretty good dmen.
How many NHLers have the potential to become a top pairing dman? I'd say not many. And Bergeron does not even come close.


I know some of you are excited but some of these rationalizations are bordering on ridiculous. Comrie + Horc/Chimera/Rita is not going to get you Hamhuis and Legwand. But if that happens, I'll be the first to jump for joy. Why? We robbed Nashville absolutely blind.

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Old
11-18-2003, 12:55 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
... and has just as much potential as Comrie does as a pt producer. That's the main reason why.
As reprinted from another post.
How do you figure that?
Which year of Legwands years make you think his potential is just as good as Comrie?
Is it maybe his career year last year where he posted a earth shattering 17 goals. Or how bout two years ago where the league was spellbound by his 13 goals. Or maybe its this year where fans are in awe of his record 20 goal pace.
Nah, it cant be any of those. It must be that he is so much younger. No wait, that cant be it. He's only 1 month younger.
So please let us know how,when they are the same age, he has more potential when his best two years goal scoring combined is less than Comries best year.

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Old
11-18-2003, 01:19 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman
Because points are the only thing that determines the value of a player I mean at 22 years old Legwand should have had 5 or 6 50 point seasons so far.
Legwand is 23 and 3 months old.

Comrie is 23 and two months old.

Legwand is a career -6 with 0.52 ppg.

Comrie is a career +4 with 0.69 ppg. (BTW, career +19 before rushing back from his injury)

Legwand has played 100 more games in the NHL... plenty of time to get is feet wet. So if "potential" is your argument for why he hasn't hit 5 60 point seasons, can't the same arguement apply to Comrie?

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Old
11-18-2003, 01:38 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesey
Don't count on Legwand being moved, same with Hamhuis. I think that Arkhipov and Upshall would be the first 2 to go, but Arky's picking up his play and I'm a huge Upshall fan so I think I would rather have them than Comrie.
Arkhipov isn't in the same league as Comrie at all. And the fact that your a big Upshall fan doesn't mean he couldn't be moved for a second. I mean it's sad that fans from a team who finishes in the bottom five year after year try to tell people that their second line center is in the same league as our top line center on our playoff team. I think valuewise, perhaps Arkhipov and Upshall isn't TO far off, but the Oilers don't need any more forward depth, they already have a surplus up front. They will probably want defense in return whether that be prospects or what not.

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Old
11-18-2003, 01:55 PM
  #62
momentai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy
As reprinted from another post.
How do you figure that?
Which year of Legwands years make you think his potential is just as good as Comrie?
Is it maybe his career year last year where he posted a earth shattering 17 goals. Or how bout two years ago where the league was spellbound by his 13 goals. Or maybe its this year where fans are in awe of his record 20 goal pace.
Nah, it cant be any of those. It must be that he is so much younger. No wait, that cant be it. He's only 1 month younger.
So please let us know how,when they are the same age, he has more potential when his best two years goal scoring combined is less than Comries best year.
I don't know. How about the year Legwand challenged Vincent Lecavalier for the #1 spot in the draft? How about him scoring over 180 pts in two season with Plymouth?

Regardless, can you honestly say that Legwand has had the benefit of the same linemates that Comrie has had during his time? Didn't think so unless you want to rationalize Scott Walker being the equal to Ryan Smyth. I don't see anyone on Nashville that can equal the quality of a Ryan Smyth or an Anson Carter. And yes, when Doug Weight was still in Edmonton Mike Comrie had the previous two on his line.

Legwand has steadily improved every single year he has been in the league without the benefit of high quality linemates.

First year in the league... PPG 0.39 99-00
PPG 0.51 00-01
PPG 0.48 01-02
PPG 0.75 02-03

Considering who he has played with, I'd say those numbers are pretty good.

I did say he had just as much "potential" as a pt producer. Frank Bonello from NHL central scouting said about Legwand "Legwand is an exceptional skater with outstanding acceleration and moves as well without the puck as he does with it. He also boasts a hard, accurate shot and is always a threat to score." If we're discussing pt producing potential Legwand has it regardless of what his stats say at the moment.

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Old
11-18-2003, 02:54 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
I don't know. How about the year Legwand challenged Vincent Lecavalier for the #1 spot in the draft? How about him scoring over 180 pts in two season with Plymouth?

Regardless, can you honestly say that Legwand has had the benefit of the same linemates that Comrie has had during his time? Didn't think so unless you want to rationalize Scott Walker being the equal to Ryan Smyth. I don't see anyone on Nashville that can equal the quality of a Ryan Smyth or an Anson Carter. And yes, when Doug Weight was still in Edmonton Mike Comrie had the previous two on his line.

Legwand has steadily improved every single year he has been in the league without the benefit of high quality linemates.

First year in the league... PPG 0.39 99-00
PPG 0.51 00-01
PPG 0.48 01-02
PPG 0.75 02-03

Considering who he has played with, I'd say those numbers are pretty good.

I did say he had just as much "potential" as a pt producer. Frank Bonello from NHL central scouting said about Legwand "Legwand is an exceptional skater with outstanding acceleration and moves as well without the puck as he does with it. He also boasts a hard, accurate shot and is always a threat to score." If we're discussing pt producing potential Legwand has it regardless of what his stats say at the moment.
Let's not forget that Comrie produced alot with Smyth injured, and Anson Carter ice cold... so yeah, Walker is comparable to that.

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Old
11-18-2003, 03:02 PM
  #64
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The only thing MC has over Legwand is points - so its convenient to just compare the two on that basis for some Edmonton fans. Legwand is superior everywhere else - size, speed, defense, shot. We would be insanely lucky to get Legwand for MC and the preds would be stupid to make that trade (doesn't mean stupid trades don't happen). I would be satified with Hamhuis for MC as the principal pieces of a deal.

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Old
11-18-2003, 03:05 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by dawgbone
Let's not forget that Comrie produced alot with Smyth injured, and Anson Carter ice cold... so yeah, Walker is comparable to that.
Walker hasn't been exactly Mr. Ironman either. He's missed 76 games in the last 2 years...

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11-18-2003, 03:30 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaoil
The only thing MC has over Legwand is points - so its convenient to just compare the two on that basis for some Edmonton fans. Legwand is superior everywhere else - size, speed, defense, shot. We would be insanely lucky to get Legwand for MC and the preds would be stupid to make that trade (doesn't mean stupid trades don't happen). I would be satified with Hamhuis for MC as the principal pieces of a deal.
You know, I get so sick & tired of this sort of comment.I guess we should trade him For Akexander Volchlkov then, cause he is bigger, faster, stronger, has a better shot....
So many guys overrate potential & draft picks its laughable (& stupid). The world is littered with guys like Hamhuis & Legwand, who may or may not ever be any good, but guys like you always think you are going to hit the homerun on spec, over guys who have actually produced at a way higher level & are the same age.

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11-18-2003, 03:34 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaoil
The only thing MC has over Legwand is points - so its convenient to just compare the two on that basis for some Edmonton fans. Legwand is superior everywhere else - size, speed, defense, shot. We would be insanely lucky to get Legwand for MC and the preds would be stupid to make that trade (doesn't mean stupid trades don't happen). I would be satified with Hamhuis for MC as the principal pieces of a deal.
Would everyone be saying the same thing if MC had 7 goals and 6 assists and was a +2 this year?

No?

I didn't think so.

The grass is always greener on the other side. Legwand may have a harder shot, but it certainly hasn't helped very much on his scoresheet.

Comrie is a better offensive player... better with the puck, smarter, better at finding holes, better goal scorer... let's not undervalue that in the days of the 2-1 snorefests.

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11-18-2003, 04:29 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Sammy
You know, I get so sick & tired of this sort of comment.I guess we should trade him For Akexander Volchlkov then, cause he is bigger, faster, stronger, has a better shot....
So many guys overrate potential & draft picks its laughable (& stupid). The world is littered with guys like Hamhuis & Legwand, who may or may not ever be any good, but guys like you always think you are going to hit the homerun on spec, over guys who have actually produced at a way higher level & are the same age.
Are you honestly comparing Legwand's skill level with Volchkov's? LOL. I don't think so.


There's a big difference between being big and talented and just being big. Can you actually name for me who Legwand has been playing with for the most part for the last 2 years? How about Comrie? Care to explain to me the difference between the linemates?

You jump all over me for saying that Legwand has just as much potential as Comrie does... and now your post proclaims that essentially potential means nothing. Interesting. Care to tell me how many games you've seen Legwand play?

And for your information Legwand scored at a 0.75 clip last year playing with a less talented club. Better than Comrie's numbers... which was 0.74 (and yes I realize the thumb injury did hurt him). Care to define the term "way higher level" again for me?

EDIT: I see you didn't respond at all to my previous post. Well, then. I guess I'm certainly glad I went through all that trouble.

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Old
11-18-2003, 04:34 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Would everyone be saying the same thing if MC had 7 goals and 6 assists and was a +2 this year?

No?

I didn't think so.

The grass is always greener on the other side. Legwand may have a harder shot, but it certainly hasn't helped very much on his scoresheet.

Comrie is a better offensive player... better with the puck, smarter, better at finding holes, better goal scorer... let's not undervalue that in the days of the 2-1 snorefests.
Personally, I would still say the same thing. I've liked David Legwand ever since he was drafted. Comrie has put up the better numbers. Of that there is no doubt. However, there's a lot to be said for quality of linemates. I'd say it's very easy at this point to just look at the stats and say Comrie is the better offensive player/goal scorer/vision. Stats, however, are not the be all and end all.

I believe David Legwand is the better player and will have the better career.

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11-18-2003, 04:54 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
Are you honestly comparing Legwand's skill level with Volchkov's? LOL. I don't think so.


There's a big difference between being big and talented and just being big. Can you actually name for me who Legwand has been playing with for the most part for the last 2 years? How about Comrie? Care to explain to me the difference between the linemates?

You jump all over me for saying that Legwand has just as much potential as Comrie does... and now your post proclaims that essentially potential means nothing. Interesting. Care to tell me how many games you've seen Legwand play?

And for your information Legwand scored at a 0.75 clip last year playing with a less talented club. Better than Comrie's numbers... which was 0.74 (and yes I realize the thumb injury did hurt him). Care to define the term "way higher level" again for me?

EDIT: I see you didn't respond at all to my previous post. Well, then. I guess I'm certainly glad I went through all that trouble.
You should maybe read a bit closer . When I said Volchkov I was referring to to the comment " Legwand is superior everywhere else - size, speed, defense, shot." Like, so what. So is Volchlkov (& yes, Volchkov was as physically skilled & sized as Legwand). It means dick squat .
Comrie in his best goal scoring year thus far has scored twice as much as Legwands best year. Its not as if Legwand is showing he turned the corner this year either.
Tell me, when do guys like you stop grossly overrating potential & actually value prerformance. Geezus , its unlikely that Legwand will ever even hit 33 goals (not many do) , but of course the guy who is a a #2 draft choice who has potted a career high 17 is a better bet.
I wish you were in my fantasy pool. You would always have all the highly touted rookies/young guys & finish in the back of the pack every year.

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11-18-2003, 05:17 PM
  #71
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Legwand would never get Comrie. End of story. The two aren't even remotely comparable.

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11-18-2003, 05:56 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
Are you honestly comparing Legwand's skill level with Volchkov's? LOL. I don't think so.


There's a big difference between being big and talented and just being big. Can you actually name for me who Legwand has been playing with for the most part for the last 2 years? How about Comrie? Care to explain to me the difference between the linemates?

You jump all over me for saying that Legwand has just as much potential as Comrie does... and now your post proclaims that essentially potential means nothing. Interesting. Care to tell me how many games you've seen Legwand play?

And for your information Legwand scored at a 0.75 clip last year playing with a less talented club. Better than Comrie's numbers... which was 0.74 (and yes I realize the thumb injury did hurt him). Care to define the term "way higher level" again for me?

EDIT: I see you didn't respond at all to my previous post. Well, then. I guess I'm certainly glad I went through all that trouble.
Potential is lovely... Legwand and Comrie may have a similar ceiling in terms of what they can do, but the fact of the matter is Comrie has already done better than Legwand.

Yeah, Legwand scored a .75 clip last year... wonderful... was that a sign of the start of an improvement on his usual 0.5, or was it simply an up blip on a career loaded with ups and downs?

Add to that the fact that Legwand has missed at least 11 games in every year except for one, and it starts to get a little clearer.

Just because you have all the power tools, it doesn't mean you can build a treehouse.

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11-18-2003, 06:02 PM
  #73
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End of Story? how so, sometimes a change of scenery is all a player needs and sometimes GM's take a chance...Lwe traded Janne for Isbister and most people said ISbister could never fetchJanne. And while i can acknowledge a big part of that was Torres coming here as well, i must say Isbister as seen by the fans in the beginning was the bigger part of the deal. Also, Carter for Dvorak was seen as a loss as far as a trade goes fo the Oilers. A 6 goal scorer for a 25+ goal scorer...Fans don't know anything when it comes to trade value. That is a foregone conclusion as has been supported by the numerous trade proposals that fans present and also the reactions they have to actual trades that have gone through. Critiquing other teams players of whom they have only seen a handful of times, and the GM who they think they could replace and manage to do a better job than all the while embarassing themselves by making poor judgements about players they are uninformed about.

To say that Comrie and Legwand have values that are incomparable is not only ignorant but goes to show that many people haven't seen Legwand play especially those that say he needs to work on his defensive game.

Put Leggy between Smyth and Hemsky right now and he finishes this year with 60+ points, without a doubt.

Edit...for Dawgbone: do todd marchant and comrie have similar upsides because comrie hasn't scored much more than Marchant did last year when he played on the top line and scored points at a clip he had never scored before in his long career? No, points don't mean everything, alot of the points you score depend on your linemates.

Last year Leggy got 1 "good" linemate in Johansson and he began to show his offensive upside which i believe is closer to lecavalier thanto comrie. Legwand i believe needs a place to go and he needs to be told to play offensive and just let it rip, something he will be able to do once he leaves Nashville. The reason for this is when he first came to the league his icetime was determined by how responsible he played defensively. Trotz was all over him to be a defensive center thinking that he could just pick up the offense whenever Trotz asked him to. Thats not the way it works for young players, look at Olli JOkinen,

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11-18-2003, 06:09 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Double
Put Leggy between Smyth and Hemsky right now and he finishes this year with 60+ points, without a doubt.
Do you have tomorrow's 6/49 numbers, because you are apparantly psychic...

I have serious doubts that legwand would chip in 60 points, as he has never shown much of an ability to score goals, and that is what is needed on a line with Hemsky and Smyth.

You can downplay Comrie all you want, but the fact is he scores goals, and a lot of them are from being in the right place at the right time, which isn't something you can teach.

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11-18-2003, 06:13 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by dawgbone
Potential is lovely... Legwand and Comrie may have a similar ceiling in terms of what they can do, but the fact of the matter is Comrie has already done better than Legwand.

Yeah, Legwand scored a .75 clip last year... wonderful... was that a sign of the start of an improvement on his usual 0.5, or was it simply an up blip on a career loaded with ups and downs?

Add to that the fact that Legwand has missed at least 11 games in every year except for one, and it starts to get a little clearer.

Just because you have all the power tools, it doesn't mean you can build a treehouse.
I think the Oil should trade Comrie for Connolly. Connolly is bigger, faster, better stickhandler & has a better shot. Plus, hes young too.Hes got lots of potential.
Only problem is, hes no good.
Maybe Nashville should make that trade though.Connolly is younger & except for last year, he has had better years than Legwand. In fact, one could easily argue that Connolly is going to be better.
The more I think of it, Legwands got to be one of the most overrated guys in hockey. We might as well be discussing a potential trade of Connolly for Comrie, thats about as logical & equally as ludicrous.

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