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Soviet players in top 10 of all time- do they belong there?

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Old
09-23-2006, 01:39 AM
  #101
XploD
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Originally Posted by murray View Post
What the Heck are you talking about? Canada is the hockey nation. Hockey was invented in Canada & has been THE major sport there since the 19th century. Until 1972 we kept our best 100+ players at home & sent amatuers to the world champion ships and still were competitive & won more often then not. Russia has really only been a legitimate hockey power since 72. Camada has been a hockey power since the 19th century & you are telling us that 20% pf the top players of all time are Russian?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IIHF_World_Championships

What about 63 to 72 then?
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Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
Hard to believe fans from there don't get it eh? Even with the advantages for Canada at the Canada cup (and the Soviets had those advantages just as much at the worlds,even more when you consider the competition from Canada's teams they had to face) The Canada cup was the REAL testing ground for the Soviet teams and it showed. No domination yet neck and neck with their equals. Again......that's still great,why bring the farceical worlds into it? It cheapens their argument,an argument they don't need to impress me and others anyway. It's their work in the only top level international competitions that impresses us and that sure as hell was'nt the world championships in those days.

sigh............has'nt happened yet. But i remain undaunted!! One of these days i'm going to get one to just snap and admit it.
I think you're still the only one saying that anyone have claimed that the Soviets dominated the best Canada could throw at them.
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Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
The Soviet regime in athletics did some strange things in those days to keep up appearances of superiority due to the political situation in those days .Would'nt surprise me that was the motive behind that move.If so,then you can't blame anyone for that,least of all Canada.They were invited to bring their best so theres no excuse and victory in that tournament can be looked upon by us with pride.Theres no honour in not accepting the challenge is there? and no honour for the fans in fluffing it off as not having their best team and penalizing Canada for it!!

I don't think they neglected to bring their best for the worlds and olympics (where they knew it would contain inferior Canadian squads) That tourney was made to be a stranglehold for them in every way.

Fishy stuff.But that's THEIR fishy stuff and not our problem as they had the same right and ability to bring their very best as anyone else.
Who's penalizing Canada for it? They won but it wasn't against their best, anything you say won't change that.

This is EXACTLY the same thing as Canada not sending their best to the WC. So it's okay when Canada faces bad teams and wins but when the Soviets does it then it can't be counted? At least the Soviets showed up with their best on foreign ground with foreign rules.

You're calling it "inferior Canadian squads" with no regret but the Soviets are being all political about it when not sending their best. I still don't understand how you think the WC's was made for the Soviets to win, the Canadians had every right to send their best if they dared to play on international ice with international rules (the only country taking a hit by this is Canada). The Soviets at least dared to play on Canadian ice with Canadian rules (this benifits one country, all the other countries were taking hits from it). What's the difference? Your rules are better?

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Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
But we've all come to the conclusion that the Soviets were basically Canada's equals so i don't see why they would have to cling to it. We admit they had great teams,as good as ours. it's time for them to come clean,it's good for their soul!!
Again, you're the only one saying that anyone has claimed that the Soviets were better than the best of Canada. So now that we're all on the same ground, is it still outrageous to call a top player of a team that skated neck and neck with teams of Gretzky, Bossy, Bourque, Dionne, Trottier, Messier, Coffey and Lemieux a top 10 player of all time?


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09-23-2006, 02:53 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
That brings me to another point.Was there any trepidation on the Soviet Unions part at that time that they would not be able to beat Canada at this time due to the power of the team Canada would bring and thus could fluff of their placing afterwards due to being able to say they did'nt have their best team? i don't remember the reasons (and i wonder if the party line given is the truth anyway)I'm sure they came up with a reason,if nothing else then to convince their fans exclusion of players was necessary at the time.

The Soviet regime in athletics did some strange things in those days to keep up appearances of superiority due to the political situation in those days .Would'nt surprise me that was the motive behind that move.If so,then you can't blame anyone for that,least of all Canada.They were invited to bring their best so theres no excuse and victory in that tournament can be looked upon by us with pride.Theres no honour in not accepting the challenge is there? and no honour for the fans in fluffing it off as not having their best team and penalizing Canada for it!!

I don't think they neglected to bring their best for the worlds and olympics (where they knew it would contain inferior Canadian squads) That tourney was made to be a stranglehold for them in every way.

Fishy stuff.But that's THEIR fishy stuff and not our problem as they had the same right and ability to bring their very best as anyone else.

Like i have been saying...................the Canada cups were the real test and i'm sure they know it.Admitting it seems to be the problem.

But we've all come to the conclusion that the Soviets were basically Canada's equals so i don't see why they would have to cling to it. We admit they had great teams,as good as ours. it's time for them to come clean,it's good for their soul!!
Kharlamov was injured for the '76 CC. Don't know why Yakushev, Petrov, Mikhailov, Vasiliev, Lyapkin, Lutchenko, Tsygankov and Shadrin didn't play - yet other "A" team players like Balderis, Maltsev, Kapustin, Tretiak and Vikulov were included.

I don't think the Soviets initially viewed the Canada Cup as that big of a deal. They most likely saw it as an opportunity to tinker with their line-up and test out other players. For the Soviets, the WC and Olympics were much more important.

However, after the first CC, I think they understood the significance of it because they always sent their A team to every subsequent Canada Cup.

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09-23-2006, 03:09 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
The Soviets did send a poor team to the 76' Canada Cup, however, it was their choice that they sent a poor team to that tournament. The Soviets could have sent their best team but they didn't. It's not like Canada in the World Championships or the Olympics where their best players weren't available.
Iīve said it before and Iīll say it again: "I did nooot have sexual relationsh..." har har. What I meant to say (again) is that I donīt think it would have affected the outcome, had the Soviets sent all their best. The Soviets had a bad run in ī76-ī77 and I just donīt believe they would have been strong enough to win. They couldnīt even win the World Championships those years.

Having said that, I think itīs one of the great "tragedies" of the sport that hockey world didnīt see Mikhailov, Petrov and Kharlamov battle against, say, line of Hull, Perreault and Marcel Dionne in the tournament. The Canada - Soviets round robin game was fine and entertaining and I would not call the Soviet squad poor, but something was certainly lacking... the Sovietsītop line of the ī70s was every bit as important for the team as KLM was in the ī80s.

Of the players who didnīt play in the first CC, only Kharlamov had a legitimate reason, as he was in the hospital recovering from a terrible car accident. Still, I do not understand why they had to leave Mikhailov, Petrov, Yakushev and Shadrin home also.

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09-23-2006, 03:18 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Kharlamov was injured for the '76 CC. Don't know why Yakushev, Petrov, Mikhailov, Vasiliev, Lyapkin, Lutchenko, Tsygankov and Shadrin didn't play - yet other "A" team players like Balderis, Maltsev, Kapustin, Tretiak and Vikulov were included.
Didnīt Vasiliev play in the tournament? And Lutchenko too? Vasiliev would have been a big loss as he was their only superstar defenseman in those days IMO, but I think he played!?

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09-23-2006, 04:03 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Kharlamov was injured for the '76 CC. Don't know why Yakushev, Petrov, Mikhailov, Vasiliev, Lyapkin, Lutchenko, Tsygankov and Shadrin didn't play - yet other "A" team players like Balderis, Maltsev, Kapustin, Tretiak and Vikulov were included.
Vasiliev and Lutchenko played.

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09-23-2006, 06:05 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by XploD View Post
Vasiliev and Lutchenko played.
Yeah, you guys are right....I stand corrected.

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09-23-2006, 08:02 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by XploD View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IIHF_World_Championships

What about 63 to 72 then?

I think you're still the only one saying that anyone have claimed that the Soviets dominated the best Canada could throw at them.

Who's penalizing Canada for it? They won but it wasn't against their best, anything you say won't change that.

This is EXACTLY the same thing as Canada not sending their best to the WC. So it's okay when Canada faces bad teams and wins but when the Soviets does it then it can't be counted? At least the Soviets showed up with their best on foreign ground with foreign rules.

You're calling it "inferior Canadian squads" with no regret but the Soviets are being all political about it when not sending their best. I still don't understand how you think the WC's was made for the Soviets to win, the Canadians had every right to send their best if they dared to play on international ice with international rules (the only country taking a hit by this is Canada). The Soviets at least dared to play on Canadian ice with Canadian rules (this benifits one country, all the other countries were taking hits from it). What's the difference? Your rules are better?


Again, you're the only one saying that anyone has claimed that the Soviets were better than the best of Canada. So now that we're all on the same ground, is it still outrageous to call a top player of a team that skated neck and neck with teams of Gretzky, Bossy, Bourque, Dionne, Trottier, Messier, Coffey and Lemieux a top 10 player of all time?
I'm not saying you said the Soviets could crush a best of Canadian side,i'm saying the worlds are no-where near the caliber of competition that the canada cup is........is still isn't to this day. And what do you mean the Russians at least showed up to play on our home turf under all our rules? we did that every year at the world championships (with a rag-tag squad though) of course we could have sent our best players as you've said.....we would have just had to piss a lot of nhl owners off who do pay the players bills in the process!!

you do realise the play-offs are on when the worlds are on yes?This is something that was not a factor for the Soviets.......we had the Canada cups at a time there was no excuse for you not to have your best players.if you did'nt bring them then there was a motive behind it,but it surely was'nt that you could'nt bring the best players like Canada at the worlds.Stop spouting untruths and accept reality. And then these teams have to go over and play the Soviets and czechs with a motley at the last second put together 2nd rate team on YOUR ice,with YOUR style of officiating(which was brutal) on YOUR home turf against YOUR best teams.What on earth do you mean we did'nt have to comply with the same realities as the Soviets at the canada cup?

.He'll.........we were doing it every year(not just every 4) under much more negative odds.You at least got to take your best players that played together as a group all year round!! You're deluding yourself xplo. You do realise that since Russia has started to send their pros to the nhl and put teams together like Canada their results at the worlds have all dried up don't you? Since that has changed Russia has struggled over there.........Canada has won 4 times!!What's the problem then? you and everyone else knows what the problem is.I don't blame you for missing the old days but please don't cry about some terrible disadvantages at the Canada Cups,you had it MUCH better then us and Russian results in the modern era show that clearly.

Now,to the final point.Is it outrageous to have a Soviet player top ten all time?.............nope.I'm not sure if there is a player from there ever worthy of top ten status but it's possible for sure. That's what i've been saying,it's your CANADA CUP WORK that is the reason i can say this,not the WORLDS.They were a farceical competition set up that gave you the best chance of winning each and every year without having to meet your toughest competition (Canada) with their best team.Can't you see this? When you sent your best teams to the Cups and Canada had their best teams ,these were the only times you were really challenged and could be truly judged.Forget the worlds, they say next to nothing.

This should be over now.

You can be judged on your performances by the Canada cups,not the worlds.

Give it up!!


Last edited by espo*: 09-23-2006 at 08:09 AM.
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09-23-2006, 08:23 AM
  #108
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I'm going to say just this :

- Canada's victories at the Canada Cups were not legitimate because the tournament was scheduled, officiated by Canadians, and played on Canadian ground, which was an advantage. Same goes for the World Cups.

- USSR's victories at all the World Championships were legitimate because the Worlds are by definition, impartial, but at the same time those victories are pretty much meaningless. It just showed that the USSR was better than the Czech Republic.

Now, who's to blame? The NHL. A private league which isn't attached to any national federation.

I'm just glad that the NHL finally allowed NHLers to play at the Olympics. Now we finally do have an objective/impartial best on best tournament every 4 years.

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09-23-2006, 08:33 AM
  #109
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I think i'lll leave it at that.It would seem to be the best compromise that both sides can maybe live with.


Although i may shift it a little: Canada cups: Maybe not legitimate yet meaningful.

world championships: technically legitimate yet not meaningful.


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09-23-2006, 04:26 PM
  #110
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you're still turning this to your advantage.

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09-23-2006, 05:45 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
I'm not saying you said the Soviets could crush a best of Canadian side,i'm saying the worlds are no-where near the caliber of competition that the canada cup is........is still isn't to this day. And what do you mean the Russians at least showed up to play on our home turf under all our rules? we did that every year at the world championships (with a rag-tag squad though) of course we could have sent our best players as you've said.....we would have just had to piss a lot of nhl owners off who do pay the players bills in the process!!
Read again. I said the Soviets showed up with their best. You didn't, I don't care what excuses you've got. Fact is that at least the Soviets took on the challenge.
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you do realise the play-offs are on when the worlds are on yes?This is something that was not a factor for the Soviets.......we had the Canada cups at a time there was no excuse for you not to have your best players.if you did'nt bring them then there was a motive behind it,but it surely was'nt that you could'nt bring the best players like Canada at the worlds.Stop spouting untruths and accept reality. And then these teams have to go over and play the Soviets and czechs with a motley at the last second put together 2nd rate team on YOUR ice,with YOUR style of officiating(which was brutal) on YOUR home turf against YOUR best teams.What on earth do you mean we did'nt have to comply with the same realities as the Soviets at the canada cup?
Why are you talking as if I was a Russian? There's no 'you' between me and Russians. As I said I don't give a crap about the reason behind you not sending your best to the Worlds. You didn't and that's the end of it. I've not said anything bad about you not sending your best as I understand that the timing was bad but I just don't get how you could count your wins against inferior squads and not let the Russians count their wins against "inferior squads". It's double standards, choose one instead.

The Soviets didn't always have home ice, home refs and a home crowd like you make it out to be. That's the difference between the WC's and the CC.

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Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
.He'll.........we were doing it every year(not just every 4) under much more negative odds.
You've totally misread or mistunderstood me. When I'm saying that the Russians took on the challange I mean that they sent their best to compete on foreign ground with foreign rules which you never did at this time. You didn't take on the European challenge but the Soviets took on your challenge.

You created the negative odds by not sending your best players just as the Soviets did in the '76 CC.
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Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
You at least got to take your best players that played together as a group all year round!!
This is EXACTLY my point. You were going on and on about how the Soviets had all the right to send their best teams to the '76 CC but didn't so you canadians can take that victory with pride. You had the exact same right to send your best to the WC's but you didn't, and you're basically saying that the Soviets are always making such a big deal about it and shouldn't take it that seriously. That's pure double standards in my eyes.
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Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
You're deluding yourself xplo. You do realise that since Russia has started to send their pros to the nhl and put teams together like Canada their results at the worlds have all dried up don't you? Since that has changed Russia has struggled over there.........Canada has won 4 times!!What's the problem then? you and everyone else knows what the problem is.I don't blame you for missing the old days but please don't cry about some terrible disadvantages at the Canada Cups,you had it MUCH better then us and Russian results in the modern era show that clearly.
What do you mean the Russians had it much better? If you're talking about the Worlds, then you're completely wrong. Canada had a bigger advantage in the CC than the Soviets and all other countries had on Canada in the WC's. Not because of you sending inferior squads, I'm not taking that into account, but because the teams in the WC's weren't always on home ice and didn't always have home refs and didn't always have home crowds. You did.

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Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
Now,to the final point.Is it outrageous to have a Soviet player top ten all time?.............nope.I'm not sure if there is a player from there ever worthy of top ten status but it's possible for sure. That's what i've been saying,it's your CANADA CUP WORK that is the reason i can say this,not the WORLDS.They were a farceical competition set up that gave you the best chance of winning each and every year without having to meet your toughest competition (Canada) with their best team.Can't you see this? When you sent your best teams to the Cups and Canada had their best teams ,these were the only times you were really challenged and could be truly judged.Forget the worlds, they say next to nothing.
Again, we're on the same page here. I just wanted to point out your double standards when it comes to the World Championships and the Canada Cup which makes you look like a total homer, which I personally think you've looked like since I joined this board.

You're going on and on about the Soviets not sending their best in '76 when they had all the right to do so. I'm just pointing out that it's basically the same thing as Canada not sending their best to the World Championships when they had all the right to do so. It's the Canadians not sending their best that made the World Championship meaningless, it would've been a much better gauge than the CC had you sent your best players.

Reminder of what got this discussion started which is what bugged me off:
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Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
They were invited to bring their best so theres no excuse and victory in that tournament can be looked upon by us with pride.Theres no honour in not accepting the challenge is there? and no honour for the fans in fluffing it off as not having their best team and penalizing Canada for it!!


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Give it up!!


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09-23-2006, 05:51 PM
  #112
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actually XploD does have a point. because Canada, in fact, never took the Challenge.

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09-23-2006, 09:52 PM
  #113
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I've been reading this thread with some interest. I must say that the attempt of revisionist history on the side of the Russians is amusing to me but I salute your attempts and you had some people really going and maybe believing it.

The Canada Cup was created BECAUSE the World Championships were no longer legitimate if in fact they ever were.

The Russians knew it, the IIHF knew it, the whole world knew it.

Let's not go to far back so let's start in the 1960's. The phony amateurism rules in place then allowed the Euros & Russians to field their best teams. Canada was not allowed to send pros.

This is common knowledge and indisputable fact.

The NHL and most Canadians knew the World Championships at that time were a sham because one of the great hockey power in the world were not allowed to send their best.

The Russians won the Olympics and Worlds and were mostly dominant but not always. The 1964 Olympics were close. The Russians also had the referees in their hip pockets, thanks in part to Bunny Ahearne. If you dispute that, then you need to study International hockey in the 60's.

In the late 60's, Canada asked permission to include a number of pros in the next world championships. Approval was given. Somehow, after a team with some pros did extremely well in a tour of Russia, the IOC & IIHF backtracked, reneged, backstabbed - you name it - and said no pros were allowed.

Thinking back, how idiotic was that. What were they afraid of? That the Canadians might actually win a tournament that was run the way the Euros & Russians wanted in order to safeguard their victories - larger ice, home crowds & culture, intimidated referees. What a joke.

The problem here was that this happened in 1969-70, just before the Worlds were to be held in Canada! There goes some of the advantages the Russians and the others had. So, allowing pros to play was just too much for the Russians & Bunny Ahearne to handle.

For those that don't know, Canada withdrew entirely from the tournament and incredibly from International hockey as well. Now, you have to know that was a pretty drastic step and shows you how corrupt and meaningless the World Championships were.

Without Canada, the World Championships had no legitimacy at all. How could it?

Over the next two years in competing in the so-called Worlds, the Russians realized what was obvious all the time. None of their victories really meant much unless they were against Canada's best.

So, the 1972 Canada-Russia series was born.

But Canada didn't come back to the Worlds until 1977. So, in the meantime, the Worlds were really only a European championship. And by the time Canada returned to the Worlds (with NHL players who missed the playoffs), the Swedes and some Finns were also in the NHL. So, the Worlds still lacked legitimacy. The Russians knew that and so did everyone else.

That's why the Canada Cup was created to be held in Canada. One of the conditions was that Canada returned to the Worlds which they did. The Worlds were so lacking in credibility that it needed Canada back.

The 1976 Canada Cup was the absolute first time that ALL the countries could play all their best players without any restrictions at all. That is so superior to the Worlds where this was never the case. Its so obvious, I don't know how anyone here disputes that.

Yes, Canada had some advantages, but it was a refreshing change. Why should the Euros and Russians forever have the advantage of larger ice surface and inept referees? Oh, the crying by the Russian apologists. For once, the Russians don't have everything their way, they whine about the referees & home ice advantage. Well, welcome to the same disadvantages that the Canadians had to put up with.

If the Russians were so powerful, and they were, they shouldn't complain.

The Russians knew the 1976 Canada Cup was legitimate. So, did everyone else. The other countries played their best players. The Russians were missing a few.

So, that makes the 1976 Canada Cup not legitimate? Ridiculous.

That was the Russians' choice whether they had control or not. What I mean by that is maybe the Russian players were injured, maybe there was discipline problems - we don't know for sure. In a closed society as the Russians had back then, anything was possible.

You can look at it two ways.

The Russians knew they would have a tough time winning (Team Canada was stacked) so they purposely built an excuse. That is what a few historians surmise. I don't buy that but I accept it was possible.

Or, those players for whatever reason, just could not play. I know that a couple of the no-shows were on the original roster of players.

It's pretty obvious the Russians still wanted and tried to win, the biggest reason, other than most of the National team was there, was that they had Tretiak in net.
If the Russians thought it wasn't a legitimate tournament (which is insane for anyone to believe that), then they would not have used Tretiak.

The Canada Cup was the only, truly legitimate tournament and was until NHL players with all the countries' stars, were allowed to participate in the Olympics.

With all due respect, because you are passionate about your beliefs, but you just can't change history.

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09-24-2006, 03:03 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by ClassicHockey View Post
I've been reading this thread with some interest. I must say that the attempt of revisionist history on the side of the Russians is amusing to me but I salute your attempts and you had some people really going and maybe believing it.

The Canada Cup was created BECAUSE the World Championships were no longer legitimate if in fact they ever were.

The Russians knew it, the IIHF knew it, the whole world knew it.

Let's not go to far back so let's start in the 1960's. The phony amateurism rules in place then allowed the Euros & Russians to field their best teams. Canada was not allowed to send pros.

This is common knowledge and indisputable fact.

The NHL and most Canadians knew the World Championships at that time were a sham because one of the great hockey power in the world were not allowed to send their best.

The Russians won the Olympics and Worlds and were mostly dominant but not always. The 1964 Olympics were close. The Russians also had the referees in their hip pockets, thanks in part to Bunny Ahearne. If you dispute that, then you need to study International hockey in the 60's.

In the late 60's, Canada asked permission to include a number of pros in the next world championships. Approval was given. Somehow, after a team with some pros did extremely well in a tour of Russia, the IOC & IIHF backtracked, reneged, backstabbed - you name it - and said no pros were allowed.

Thinking back, how idiotic was that. What were they afraid of? That the Canadians might actually win a tournament that was run the way the Euros & Russians wanted in order to safeguard their victories - larger ice, home crowds & culture, intimidated referees. What a joke.

The problem here was that this happened in 1969-70, just before the Worlds were to be held in Canada! There goes some of the advantages the Russians and the others had. So, allowing pros to play was just too much for the Russians & Bunny Ahearne to handle.

For those that don't know, Canada withdrew entirely from the tournament and incredibly from International hockey as well. Now, you have to know that was a pretty drastic step and shows you how corrupt and meaningless the World Championships were.

Without Canada, the World Championships had no legitimacy at all. How could it?

Over the next two years in competing in the so-called Worlds, the Russians realized what was obvious all the time. None of their victories really meant much unless they were against Canada's best.

So, the 1972 Canada-Russia series was born.

But Canada didn't come back to the Worlds until 1977. So, in the meantime, the Worlds were really only a European championship. And by the time Canada returned to the Worlds (with NHL players who missed the playoffs), the Swedes and some Finns were also in the NHL. So, the Worlds still lacked legitimacy. The Russians knew that and so did everyone else.

That's why the Canada Cup was created to be held in Canada. One of the conditions was that Canada returned to the Worlds which they did. The Worlds were so lacking in credibility that it needed Canada back.

The 1976 Canada Cup was the absolute first time that ALL the countries could play all their best players without any restrictions at all. That is so superior to the Worlds where this was never the case. Its so obvious, I don't know how anyone here disputes that.

Yes, Canada had some advantages, but it was a refreshing change. Why should the Euros and Russians forever have the advantage of larger ice surface and inept referees? Oh, the crying by the Russian apologists. For once, the Russians don't have everything their way, they whine about the referees & home ice advantage. Well, welcome to the same disadvantages that the Canadians had to put up with.

If the Russians were so powerful, and they were, they shouldn't complain.

The Russians knew the 1976 Canada Cup was legitimate. So, did everyone else. The other countries played their best players. The Russians were missing a few.

So, that makes the 1976 Canada Cup not legitimate? Ridiculous.

That was the Russians' choice whether they had control or not. What I mean by that is maybe the Russian players were injured, maybe there was discipline problems - we don't know for sure. In a closed society as the Russians had back then, anything was possible.

You can look at it two ways.

The Russians knew they would have a tough time winning (Team Canada was stacked) so they purposely built an excuse. That is what a few historians surmise. I don't buy that but I accept it was possible.

Or, those players for whatever reason, just could not play. I know that a couple of the no-shows were on the original roster of players.

It's pretty obvious the Russians still wanted and tried to win, the biggest reason, other than most of the National team was there, was that they had Tretiak in net.
If the Russians thought it wasn't a legitimate tournament (which is insane for anyone to believe that), then they would not have used Tretiak.

The Canada Cup was the only, truly legitimate tournament and was until NHL players with all the countries' stars, were allowed to participate in the Olympics.

With all due respect, because you are passionate about your beliefs, but you just can't change history.
A bit black & white, donīt ya think?

Legitimate or not, it (CC ī76) was not that much more higher quality tournament than the WCs of the, say, early ī70s, when the Soviets, Czechs and Swedes still had their best teams there. Others countries - except Canada of course - donīt even count... the best of USA? (big deal).

Anyway, ironically now that there are at least 6 or 7 countries that are competitive, all hockey tournaments seem to have lost the whatever lustre they used to have. I mean, the World Cup of hockeyī04, cīmon! It just seemed to me that many of players were like "huh, what World Cup?" and I donīt blame them. A tournament that is nowadays played once in a blue moon canīt be called "the real World Championships" or anything like that. Hopefully the 2010 Winter Olympics will inject some life to international hockey; should be great athmosphere there... mmm...

Hockey is a RIDICULOUSLY small sport and Iīm beginning to feel RIDICULOUS to argue anymore about it! SUMMA SUMMARUM All hockey tournaments are jokes and have always been. They were sometimes surely fun to watch though.


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09-24-2006, 03:40 AM
  #115
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I've been reading this thread with some interest. I must say that the attempt of revisionist history on the side of the Russians is amusing to me but I salute your attempts and you had some people really going and maybe believing it.

The Canada Cup was created BECAUSE the World Championships were no longer legitimate if in fact they ever were.

The Russians knew it, the IIHF knew it, the whole world knew it.

Let's not go to far back so let's start in the 1960's. The phony amateurism rules in place then allowed the Euros & Russians to field their best teams. Canada was not allowed to send pros.

This is common knowledge and indisputable fact.

The NHL and most Canadians knew the World Championships at that time were a sham because one of the great hockey power in the world were not allowed to send their best.

The Russians won the Olympics and Worlds and were mostly dominant but not always. The 1964 Olympics were close. The Russians also had the referees in their hip pockets, thanks in part to Bunny Ahearne. If you dispute that, then you need to study International hockey in the 60's.

In the late 60's, Canada asked permission to include a number of pros in the next world championships. Approval was given. Somehow, after a team with some pros did extremely well in a tour of Russia, the IOC & IIHF backtracked, reneged, backstabbed - you name it - and said no pros were allowed.

Thinking back, how idiotic was that. What were they afraid of? That the Canadians might actually win a tournament that was run the way the Euros & Russians wanted in order to safeguard their victories - larger ice, home crowds & culture, intimidated referees. What a joke.

The problem here was that this happened in 1969-70, just before the Worlds were to be held in Canada! There goes some of the advantages the Russians and the others had. So, allowing pros to play was just too much for the Russians & Bunny Ahearne to handle.

For those that don't know, Canada withdrew entirely from the tournament and incredibly from International hockey as well. Now, you have to know that was a pretty drastic step and shows you how corrupt and meaningless the World Championships were.

Without Canada, the World Championships had no legitimacy at all. How could it?

Over the next two years in competing in the so-called Worlds, the Russians realized what was obvious all the time. None of their victories really meant much unless they were against Canada's best.

So, the 1972 Canada-Russia series was born.

But Canada didn't come back to the Worlds until 1977. So, in the meantime, the Worlds were really only a European championship. And by the time Canada returned to the Worlds (with NHL players who missed the playoffs), the Swedes and some Finns were also in the NHL. So, the Worlds still lacked legitimacy. The Russians knew that and so did everyone else.

That's why the Canada Cup was created to be held in Canada. One of the conditions was that Canada returned to the Worlds which they did. The Worlds were so lacking in credibility that it needed Canada back.

The 1976 Canada Cup was the absolute first time that ALL the countries could play all their best players without any restrictions at all. That is so superior to the Worlds where this was never the case. Its so obvious, I don't know how anyone here disputes that.

Yes, Canada had some advantages, but it was a refreshing change. Why should the Euros and Russians forever have the advantage of larger ice surface and inept referees? Oh, the crying by the Russian apologists. For once, the Russians don't have everything their way, they whine about the referees & home ice advantage. Well, welcome to the same disadvantages that the Canadians had to put up with.

If the Russians were so powerful, and they were, they shouldn't complain.

The Russians knew the 1976 Canada Cup was legitimate. So, did everyone else. The other countries played their best players. The Russians were missing a few.

So, that makes the 1976 Canada Cup not legitimate? Ridiculous.

That was the Russians' choice whether they had control or not. What I mean by that is maybe the Russian players were injured, maybe there was discipline problems - we don't know for sure. In a closed society as the Russians had back then, anything was possible.

You can look at it two ways.

The Russians knew they would have a tough time winning (Team Canada was stacked) so they purposely built an excuse. That is what a few historians surmise. I don't buy that but I accept it was possible.

Or, those players for whatever reason, just could not play. I know that a couple of the no-shows were on the original roster of players.

It's pretty obvious the Russians still wanted and tried to win, the biggest reason, other than most of the National team was there, was that they had Tretiak in net.
If the Russians thought it wasn't a legitimate tournament (which is insane for anyone to believe that), then they would not have used Tretiak.

The Canada Cup was the only, truly legitimate tournament and was until NHL players with all the countries' stars, were allowed to participate in the Olympics.

With all due respect, because you are passionate about your beliefs, but you just can't change history.
You’re obviously are well informed, but from reading your post (and other past posts) you DO have a pro-Canadian agenda which taints objectivity.

Nobody here is really talking about the worlds pre-1970’s so you can throw that out the window.
Likewise, nobody’s saying that the Worlds were, talent wise, better than the CC. However, to dismiss them as a ‘joke’ because Canada wasn’t playing is an insult to the other teams; especially considering Canada would have been in deep against the Soviets and Czechs even if they sent their best. Actually, Canada's competition in the '76 Worlds would have been tougher than it was in the '76 CC due to Russia's weakened CC team.

Second, how were the Worlds not neutral? They took place in different countries with neutral refs. If they had been played in the Soviet Union every year, in front of Soviet fans, with Soviet refs I’d agree with you …but they weren’t.

Not being neutral is Canada’s claim to fame. Apart from the last 4 games of the Summit Series, EVERY best-on-best tournament with the Soviets was held in Canada. Every CC, the Challenge Cup, even Rendezvous '87.
You seem big into ‘conspiracies theories’ on why the Soviets left a certain player off their roster for this tourney, or were never up to the challenge in that tourney – let me turn this around. Why did Canada/NHL only play the Soviets on home ice? What were THEY afraid of? I'm sure the Soviet would have loved a tourney on home ice.

Personally, I view the Summit Series and the last 3 Olympics as the only true legitimate tournaments -- due to the level of play and neutrality involved.


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09-24-2006, 04:18 AM
  #116
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The 1976 Canada Cup was the absolute first time that ALL the countries could play all their best players without any restrictions at all. That is so superior to the Worlds where this was never the case. Its so obvious, I don't know how anyone here disputes that.
Nobody here disputes that.
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Yes, Canada had some advantages, but it was a refreshing change. Why should the Euros and Russians forever have the advantage of larger ice surface and inept referees? Oh, the crying by the Russian apologists. For once, the Russians don't have everything their way, they whine about the referees & home ice advantage. Well, welcome to the same disadvantages that the Canadians had to put up with.
It's still not the same. In the CC the Canadians had home ice, home refs and home crowd. In the WC's, apart from when the WC's was played in Russia, the Soviets didn't have that same advantage. They had the international ice surface and that's it. You think the Swedish and Finnish refs wanted Russia to win?
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The Canada Cup was the only, truly legitimate tournament and was until NHL players with all the countries' stars, were allowed to participate in the Olympics.
I've said that all along. I don't think what anyone has said has pointed to anything else. However, had the Canadians sent their best to compete in the WC's (which they've had all the right to do since 1976) it would've been a better gauge. International ice would take as much from the Canadians as it would from all the other countries playing on Canadian ice in the CC's but that's it. The Russians wouldn't have had home refs and they wouldn't have played in front of home crowds.

Yes, you had playoffs and what not, but there's the Olympic break now so you could've made a break then if you truly wanted to take on the same challenge as the Soviets did by playing the CC with their best players. Blame the NHL, blame Ziegler or whoever, but you didn't take on the same challenge and that's why cyclops comment bugged me off.

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09-24-2006, 10:10 AM
  #117
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Yes, its a little black & white but to give an extensive analyses would take too much time and space. I just wanted to give a historical perspective that challenged the ridiculous notion that the World Championships (in any era) were more meaningful than the Canada Cups (up to 1991).

Forget everything after 1987 because with all the Russians, Swedes, Czechs, Finns etc. in the NHL and especially after the Cold War ended, there was no real passion.

Its the Olympics that are important now - not the World Cups.

And the reason is that all the teams can compete with their best. The World Championships never could say that.

To me, that's the bottom line.

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A bit black & white, donīt ya think?

Legitimate or not, it (CC ī76) was not that much more higher quality tournament than the WCs of the, say, early ī70s, when the Soviets, Czechs and Swedes still had their best teams there. Others countries - except Canada of course - donīt even count... the best of USA? (big deal).

Anyway, ironically now that there are at least 6 or 7 countries that are competitive, all hockey tournaments seem to have lost the whatever lustre they used to have. I mean, the World Cup of hockeyī94, cīmon! It just seemed to me that many of players were like "huh, what World Cup?" and I donīt blame them. A tournament that is nowadays played once in a blue moon canīt be called "the real World Championships" or anything like that. Hopefully the 2010 Winter Olympics will inject some life to international hockey; should be great athmosphere there... mmm...

Hockey is a RIDICULOUSLY small sport and Iīm beginning to feel RIDICULOUS to argue anymore about it! SUMMA SUMMARUM All hockey tournaments are jokes and have always been. They were sometimes surely fun to watch though.

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09-24-2006, 10:24 AM
  #118
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The Worlds were neutral? I don't forget the crooked adminstration of Bunny Ahearne. Take a look at the backroom dealings just as the 1964 Olympics were ending, or the officiating at the 1966 Worlds at Yugoslavia. There is always more to the story that is apparent.

The best example of the top challenge was the 1972 series, as you say. The games were split - 4 in each country.

How can there be a Canada Cup and World Championships and neither were held in North America? Come on. The reason the Canada Cup is held in Canada (and also the U.S.) was to give balance to the International scene. Remember the different ice surfaces? Well, after all the years of Canada and U.S. always playing in Europe, the main purpose is fairness and balance.

The Super Series were all in North America because the series was against NHL teams in the middle of the season. How else could it have been done? The Russians had no problem with it because they came over with two teams which included all their best players and played NHL teams and brought a lot of money home.

I am Canadian but you can't say I don't look at the other views. If you've seen my other posts, I am one of the few here who sides with the Russians against the Flyers in 1976 when they walked off. I've talked about that extensively. If I see something wrong that Canada did, I would say it.

I'm with you on the 1972 summit series and the Olympics. What I'm saying is the Canada Cups of 1976, 1981, 1984, 1987 were the supreme test in those days.


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Second, how were the Worlds not neutral? They took place in different countries with neutral refs. If they had been played in the Soviet Union every year, in front of Soviet fans, with Soviet refs I’d agree with you …but they weren’t.

Not being neutral is Canada’s claim to fame. Apart from the last 4 games of the Summit Series, EVERY best-on-best tournament with the Soviets was held in Canada. Every CC, the Challenge Cup, even Rendezvous '87.
You seem big into ‘conspiracies theories’ on why the Soviets left a certain player off their roster for this tourney, or were never up to the challenge in that tourney – let me turn this around. Why did Canada/NHL only play the Soviets on home ice? What were THEY afraid of? I'm sure the Soviet would have loved a tourney on home ice.

Personally, I view the Summit Series and the last 3 Olympics as the only true legitimate tournaments -- due to the level of play and neutrality involved.

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09-24-2006, 10:30 AM
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The officials may have been Canadian and American but they were much better than any International referees who sometimes had trouble skating or figuring out their loyalties. The Swedes or Czech or Finns may not have wanted the Russians to win but that wasn't the problem. The way the officiating was administered by the people in charge made it a sham.

There was more than the larger ice surfaces that were a problem. The Canadian players weren't used to the 2 referee system with no linesmen. The European referees had to call off-sides as well. It just didn't work as well as it could have.

What is so wrong with the Canadians and U.S. having their own ice surface and officiating rules to create a level playing field?

[QUOTE=XploD;6564664]Nobody here disputes that.
It's still not the same. In the CC the Canadians had home ice, home refs and home crowd. In the WC's, apart from when the WC's was played in Russia, the Soviets didn't have that same advantage. They had the international ice surface and that's it. You think the Swedish and Finnish refs wanted Russia to win?

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09-24-2006, 12:06 PM
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The officials may have been Canadian and American but they were much better than any International referees who sometimes had trouble skating or figuring out their loyalties. The Swedes or Czech or Finns may not have wanted the Russians to win but that wasn't the problem. The way the officiating was administered by the people in charge made it a sham.

There was more than the larger ice surfaces that were a problem. The Canadian players weren't used to the 2 referee system with no linesmen. The European referees had to call off-sides as well. It just didn't work as well as it could have.

What is so wrong with the Canadians and U.S. having their own ice surface and officiating rules to create a level playing field?
There's nothing wrong with it. I'm just saying that the WC's would've been a better gauge because of the neutral referees and because it wasn't played in front of the home crowds of one team. Everything that was an advantage for the Soviets in the WC's was also a disadvantage for them in the CC.

You had advantage on the European teams in the CC not only because of the Canadian rules but because of the home refs and home crowd. Now the Europeans had only the rules as an advantage in the WC's. That's why the WC's would've been a better gauge had you sent your best players to play there.

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09-24-2006, 01:09 PM
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There's nothing wrong with it. I'm just saying that the WC's would've been a better gauge because of the neutral referees and because it wasn't played in front of the home crowds of one team. Everything that was an advantage for the Soviets in the WC's was also a disadvantage for them in the CC.

You had advantage on the European teams in the CC not only because of the Canadian rules but because of the home refs and home crowd. Now the Europeans had only the rules as an advantage in the WC's. That's why the WC's would've been a better gauge had you sent your best players to play there.
Neutral referees? In a European based tournament? That in and of itself is a laughable concept - heck look at Badder and Worse in 1972. Say what you want but what happened there is laughable at best.

Few people will say that European hockey doesn't have the skill of those in North America but the toughness to go along with that skill was often lacking. There really never has been that nasty edge that a Howe possessed in the Soviet teams - players that would hurt the opposition just because they could.

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09-24-2006, 01:20 PM
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Its an interesting topic relating to home crowds.

Did the home crowds have that much of an effect? I know there were 3,000 Canadians is Moscow but it had to be terribly intimidating for the Canadian team playing in a foreign country that was usually closed to the outside world. The food and culture was so different to what they were used to. The Soviet hiearchy were watching the games and the arena was ringed with Russian troops.

Yet, Canada still won the last three games there.

In the worlds, the Canadian team were subjected to taunting but it was mostly from the local press. The Swedish press routinely labeled the Canadians as thugs. From what the Canadian players say, the only time the crowd really had an effect on them was when the Worlds were held in Sweden. The Canadians were subjected to abuse by the Swedish press and fans but in the final game when the Swedes needed Canada to win to preserve a medal for the Swedish team, the crowd then cheered the Canadian team. You may be from Sweden so I won't go further into the disgust the Canadians had at that time.

In Europe, the countries are close together - a train ride apart and there would be more fans from surrounding countries attending. So, to an extent, I say that a tournament in Europe was more of a home game for all the European teams. Not quite but still a factor.

On the other hand, the Russians were coming to North American since the 50's and from that time on, I don't remember the crowds affecting the Russian play at all. The Russians just kept on winning and the players looked forward to exploring the west.

Then when the Canada Cups came around, some of the Europeans were already playing in North America. So, there really isn't a factor from home crowds. In fact, in the 1976 Canada Cup, Borje Salming got the biggest ovation when he lined up for Sweden against Canada at MLG.

I really don't buy the argument that the European teams were affected by the crowds at all while playing in North America in the Canada Cups. There is no proof or even an indication.

The advantages or disadvantages is from the rules. In the 60's, International rules prevented teams from bodychecking in the offensive zone. You don't think that affected the way the Canadian and U.S. teams had to play? You bet it did.
So did the refereeing because of the 2 man system. The Canadians were dumbfounded with the amount of interference allowed by the 2 European officials in
the Worlds. You better believe that was a detriment to the North American teams.

There just were so many more advantages to the European teams that affected the performances of Canadian and U.S. teams. So, you still couldn't have a proper gauge in the Worlds even if the Canadians and Americans could field their best, which they couldn't.

Don't get me started on the refereeing situation in Europe where appointments were political and the referees routinely missed offsides and couldn't keep up with the play.

By the time the Canada Cups came along, most of the problems and inequities were resolved. That's why, besides allowing the best players to perform, the Canada Cups was the best venue for a fair tournament. Not perfect for everyone but far more fair than what the North American teams faced in Europe. To me, and a lot of the players that I know, there is no question of that.


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There's nothing wrong with it. I'm just saying that the WC's would've been a better gauge because of the neutral referees and because it wasn't played in front of the home crowds of one team. Everything that was an advantage for the Soviets in the WC's was also a disadvantage for them in the CC.

You had advantage on the European teams in the CC not only because of the Canadian rules but because of the home refs and home crowd. Now the Europeans had only the rules as an advantage in the WC's. That's why the WC's would've been a better gauge had you sent your best players to play there.

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09-24-2006, 03:00 PM
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Neutral referees? In a European based tournament? That in and of itself is a laughable concept - heck look at Badder and Worse in 1972. Say what you want but what happened there is laughable at best.
Well we're not really talking about 1972. It's been from '76 and on for a while now.

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Its an interesting topic relating to home crowds.

Did the home crowds have that much of an effect? I know there were 3,000 Canadians is Moscow but it had to be terribly intimidating for the Canadian team playing in a foreign country that was usually closed to the outside world. The food and culture was so different to what they were used to. The Soviet hiearchy were watching the games and the arena was ringed with Russian troops.

Yet, Canada still won the last three games there.

In the worlds, the Canadian team were subjected to taunting but it was mostly from the local press. The Swedish press routinely labeled the Canadians as thugs. From what the Canadian players say, the only time the crowd really had an effect on them was when the Worlds were held in Sweden. The Canadians were subjected to abuse by the Swedish press and fans but in the final game when the Swedes needed Canada to win to preserve a medal for the Swedish team, the crowd then cheered the Canadian team. You may be from Sweden so I won't go further into the disgust the Canadians had at that time.

In Europe, the countries are close together - a train ride apart and there would be more fans from surrounding countries attending. So, to an extent, I say that a tournament in Europe was more of a home game for all the European teams. Not quite but still a factor.

On the other hand, the Russians were coming to North American since the 50's and from that time on, I don't remember the crowds affecting the Russian play at all. The Russians just kept on winning and the players looked forward to exploring the west.

Then when the Canada Cups came around, some of the Europeans were already playing in North America. So, there really isn't a factor from home crowds. In fact, in the 1976 Canada Cup, Borje Salming got the biggest ovation when he lined up for Sweden against Canada at MLG.

I really don't buy the argument that the European teams were affected by the crowds at all while playing in North America in the Canada Cups. There is no proof or even an indication.
Ok, so you're denying the home crowd effect. I agree that it might not have been a big advantage but it sure is helpful. I know, since I've played hockey myself that having home crowd sure is a factor, especially in important games.

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The advantages or disadvantages is from the rules. In the 60's, International rules prevented teams from bodychecking in the offensive zone. You don't think that affected the way the Canadian and U.S. teams had to play? You bet it did.
Why do you keep bringing up the 60's? I've never said anything about the 60's.
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So did the refereeing because of the 2 man system. The Canadians were dumbfounded with the amount of interference allowed by the 2 European officials in
the Worlds. You better believe that was a detriment to the North American teams.
Then I guess it was the same thing for the Europeans in the CC. Again, the Soviets accepted the challenge of playing with the best by Canadian rules on Canadian ice while the Canadians didn't accept the same European challenge.

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There just were so many more advantages to the European teams that affected the performances of Canadian and U.S. teams. So, you still couldn't have a proper gauge in the Worlds even if the Canadians and Americans could field their best, which they couldn't.
Still neutral refs and neutral locations. That's more than you can say about the CC.
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Don't get me started on the refereeing situation in Europe where appointments were political and the referees routinely missed offsides and couldn't keep up with the play.
Stop talking about the damn 60's.
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By the time the Canada Cups came along, most of the problems and inequities were resolved. That's why, besides allowing the best players to perform, the Canada Cups was the best venue for a fair tournament. Not perfect for everyone but far more fair than what the North American teams faced in Europe. To me, and a lot of the players that I know, there is no question of that.
I disagree, and all the players I know also disagrees. Had you sent your best to the Worlds by the time of the 80's it would've been much like the Olympics is now. Neutral refs and neutral locations.

But because you never accepted the European challenge of sending your best to the WC, the CC is the only real thing we can go by.

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09-24-2006, 03:49 PM
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It may not be pertinent to your area of discussion but I don't disregard what happened before the 70's. In my mind, it shows how Canada was disadvantaged.

You were the one who put such a strong emphasis on home crowds. I'm saying its not as big a factor as you think. You show no proof.

Maybe you can tell me this. What rules were in the Canada Cup that were so different than what the Russians were playing?

I'm trying to think of some. Maybe the centre red line. What else? Please list all these different rules for me.

You've provided nothing to back your claim.

What was the partiality of the officials in the CC? You haven't mentioned any examples. I can think of some in Europe. You again show no proof.

What European challenge was there for Canada to send their best to the WC? I must have missed something. The Worlds are on when the NHL playoffs are on.

Please tell me about the challenge? I'm not saying it doesn't exist but I never heard it and I always like to learn more.

If you don't mind, I like to know who I'm debating with. It makes a difference. You know I'm from Canada. Where are you?

You just need to be more specific without the general accusations.

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Well we're not really talking about 1972. It's been from '76 and on for a while now.


Ok, so you're denying the home crowd effect. I agree that it might not have been a big advantage but it sure is helpful. I know, since I've played hockey myself that having home crowd sure is a factor, especially in important games.


Why do you keep bringing up the 60's? I've never said anything about the 60's.

Then I guess it was the same thing for the Europeans in the CC. Again, the Soviets accepted the challenge of playing with the best by Canadian rules on Canadian ice while the Canadians didn't accept the same European challenge.


Still neutral refs and neutral locations. That's more than you can say about the CC.

Stop talking about the damn 60's.

I disagree, and all the players I know also disagrees. Had you sent your best to the Worlds by the time of the 80's it would've been much like the Olympics is now. Neutral refs and neutral locations.

But because you never accepted the European challenge of sending your best to the WC, the CC is the only real thing we can go by.

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09-24-2006, 04:57 PM
  #125
XploD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClassicHockey View Post
It may not be pertinent to your area of discussion but I don't disregard what happened before the 70's. In my mind, it shows how Canada was disadvantaged.
Yeah you're right, it shows how Canada was disadvantaged before the 1970's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClassicHockey View Post
You were the one who put such a strong emphasis on home crowds. I'm saying its not as big a factor as you think. You show no proof.
I didn't put a strong emphasis on that, if it came across that way then I apologize. I didn't think I needed to show proof of how playing in front of a home crowd is an advantage, I just thought it was common knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClassicHockey View Post
Maybe you can tell me this. What rules were in the Canada Cup that were so different than what the Russians were playing?

I'm trying to think of some. Maybe the centre red line. What else? Please list all these different rules for me.
International rules vs NHL rules, you don't know the difference? You also said yourself that the refs allowed a lot more in NA than in Europe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClassicHockey View Post
What was the partiality of the officials in the CC? You haven't mentioned any examples. I can think of some in Europe. You again show no proof.
Neutral refs vs North American refs. That's the thing. The WC's wasn't played entirely with Soviet refs and again, that's why it would've been a better gauge than the CC's had you sent your best players. If the WC's was played on Soviet locations with Soviet referees, then it would've been the same thing as the CC. So neutral location + neutral refs in an international tournament is always better than Canadian location + Canadian refs don't you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClassicHockey View Post
What European challenge was there for Canada to send their best to the WC? I must have missed something. The Worlds are on when the NHL playoffs are on.
I know that, it doens't change anything though. You still didn't send your best players. The Soviets did, yes you had a reason, but just as the Olympics were on when the NHL was on before, now you have what's called an Olympic break so that every country can send their best players to the Olympics. Basically the same thing as it would've been if the NHL would've made a break for the WC's. As I said, I don't blame you for it, but it still doesn't change the fact that the Soviets did take on a challenge which you never did, and again ALL OF THIS comes down to me being bugged off by the comment that cyclops made on the previous page:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
They were invited to bring their best so theres no excuse and victory in that tournament can be looked upon by us with pride.Theres no honour in not accepting the challenge is there? and no honour for the fans in fluffing it off as not having their best team and penalizing Canada for it!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClassicHockey View Post
Please tell me about the challenge? I'm not saying it doesn't exist but I never heard it and I always like to learn more.
Already addressed.


Last edited by XploD: 09-24-2006 at 05:36 PM.
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