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09-20-2006, 06:23 AM
  #1
jas
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Dubinsky

When this kid makes the opening night roster, (yes, I'm that confident he will at this point), I, like many others, will feel vindicated. And, part of the reason for that is, it is a testament to places like HF and others (Blueshirt Bulletin comes to mind), that we the more avid fans first become aware of players like Dubinsky, or future faves like Marc-Andre Cliche and Brodie Dupont and the like. Some people as far back as June were saying Dubinsky had a shot to make the Rangers. But, the obvious places like the local rags, or season preview magazines, Dubinsky wasn't on the radar screen. Yes, guys like Brooks and Zipay took notice in camp. But, I think we the avid Ranger fandom are getting the jump on these guys now. We get info from people like Leslie here at HF, and Jess at Blueshirt Bulletin, and others who are watching these guys and giving valid reports and getting info from people we as fans had limited access to. So when THN puts out a top 10 of Ranger prospects, I believe we as fans are more knowlegeable about its legitimacy. Again I'll cite Dubinsky as an example. Here's a quote from Tom Renney about him from Brooks today -

Quote:
"Brandon's skills tell you that he should be a second-line center, if not a first-liner when he hits his stride in the NHL, but if he plays well enough to earn a spot with the Rangers, he can be a fourth-liner for me out of camp," Renney said of the precocious 20-year-old who beat Martin Brodeur on a 50-footer in last night's 3-1 preseason victory over the Devils at the Meadowlands.
First-liners are consider top prospects, right? I know you can't necessarily tell about how a kid will develop, but, shouldn't there be SOME insight into this kid potential. I think that speaks volumes about some of these top fifty prospect lists that a THN or even the one on the main board here at HF.

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09-20-2006, 07:46 AM
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Ola
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
When this kid makes the opening night roster, (yes, I'm that confident he will at this point), I, like many others, will feel vindicated. And, part of the reason for that is, it is a testament to places like HF and others (Blueshirt Bulletin comes to mind), that we the more avid fans first become aware of players like Dubinsky, or future faves like Marc-Andre Cliche and Brodie Dupont and the like. Some people as far back as June were saying Dubinsky had a shot to make the Rangers. But, the obvious places like the local rags, or season preview magazines, Dubinsky wasn't on the radar screen. Yes, guys like Brooks and Zipay took notice in camp. But, I think we the avid Ranger fandom are getting the jump on these guys now. We get info from people like Leslie here at HF, and Jess at Blueshirt Bulletin, and others who are watching these guys and giving valid reports and getting info from people we as fans had limited access to. So when THN puts out a top 10 of Ranger prospects, I believe we as fans are more knowlegeable about its legitimacy. Again I'll cite Dubinsky as an example. Here's a quote from Tom Renney about him from Brooks today -

First-liners are consider top prospects, right? I know you can't necessarily tell about how a kid will develop, but, shouldn't there be SOME insight into this kid potential. I think that speaks volumes about some of these top fifty prospect lists that a THN or even the one on the main board here at HF.
Lundqvist not beeing on TSN's NYR top 10, and HF top 50, after beeing awarded best goalie in the WCH are another example. Prucha beat out Martin Havlat twice to make the Czech National team, played solid hockey in two great WCH's, still didn't make any ranking anywhere.

To be quit honest, I at times feel big parts of the hockeyworld at times have pretty poor insight, or that they are really narrowminded.

Look at how Toronto Maple Leafs built there team for last season. I can gaurantee you, that if you would have asked any of the 12 coaches in the SEL what they thought of Toronto's roster in a game without a redline, all 12 would have answeared that they didn't know what they where dooing. The game is diffrent in Europe, thats true, but after playing without a redline for 8 years everyone with any insight in International Hockey knew the importance of having puckskill on the wings, and you don't have to be related to Einstein to understand that the same thing would take place in the NHL. Still a team like Toronto with a budget of, what 60m USD?, acted like they had no clue.

There is no doubt that Renney had a good read on what direction to take when the redline where removed, but I don't praise him all that much for it, its like Renney said for the 1/4 of last season, he wheren't suprised how his team played, but he said that he where somewhat suprised how other teams in the league played, how poor they had adopted to the new game.

And this not only applies to prospects, like Dubinsky, Prucha and Lundqvist. European agents here are often pretty outspoken about what teams are interested in their players ect. Last summer a story broke how Toronto either would sign Mariuz Czerkawski or Mikael Samuelsson. Samuelsson who I think all of us understood atleast would be a decent fit in the NHL with the new rules where passed over for Czerkawski who just is a misserable hockeyplayer, one of the laziest guys I've ever seen where a couple of skates, Czerkawski who the previous season had been benched for about half the season by his team in Europe. Not to mention that Samuelsson played a great WCH the spring before, his offensive outburst in Detroit where hardly a suprise. It seems like a lottery at times who gets signed here and not.

Everyone are so name horny, a player who have had good stats one year will get chance after chance to make it. Another player who where a dissapointment early in his career never gets another chance. I see allot of Lubos Bartecko here in the SEL. Two straight summers he haven't gotten a NHL contract, I am 100% sure that he would, without a problem, make 15 out of 30 teams in the NHL, for 500k USD per season. His CV might not be perfect, but he is a good hockeyplayer, who would help a team like Toronto, for example, allot.


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09-20-2006, 08:59 AM
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I think I disagree with Renney a bit...

I'm not sure fourth line would be the best place for Dubsinky right now. Also, his wording was odd and almost says that if Dubinsky has a good camp, he could play on a fourth line. Perhaps there's something lost in the quote or translation. But back to the fourth line...I guess it depends on where other centermen and wingers end up as to whether or not he'd play there, but I'd think that getting 18-20 minutes in Hartford for some time, even a short period of time, wouldn't hurt him too much. I do agree that it could make for a dynamic fourth line, so in the end, it may be what is best for the team. Still need to see how everything shakes out.

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09-20-2006, 09:06 AM
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well Fletch, I think you ultimately have to look at how he's likely to break on to this team.

If he goes to Hartford, is he still going to have to wait for a callup in order to get on the 4th line in NY? The Rangers seem very very careful about putting rookies into the lineup and they don't want to get them in over their heads.

18-20 minutes in Hartford is great if it means he doesn't have to sit on the 4th line when he gets called up.

starting out on the 4th line with a chance to work his way up a little is a bit of a different situation.

I don't know if that makes sense...

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09-20-2006, 09:16 AM
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I agree, Fletch

the 4th line is not the place to develop future top-2 line players. Playing around 12-14 minutes on the 3rd line is one thing. Playing less than 10 on the 4th line is silly. Dubinsky's development would be better served playing 18-20 minutes per night in Hartford, as opposed to 8 minutes with the Rangers. I just do not understand why Renney seems to be cemented on the idea that Betts should be the 3rd line center. Move Betts down to the 4th line where he belongs, and the 3rd line center's spot becomes a not-so-bad place for either Immonen or Dubinsky to develop.

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09-20-2006, 09:16 AM
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I'm having trouble following, Levitate...

Let me take it a paragraph at a time:

First, in the end, the fourth line may be best for the Rangers as a team; of course, I think that really depends on how the rest of the team shakes out. There are so many moving parts, with Nylander, Immonen, Betts, Cullen, Ward and Hall available to play center, as you have guys like Hossa and Dawes, among others, trying to make it at wing, which could make Cullen or Ward a center. Would he be trying to vie for a better role with the Rangers? If Betts is the third line center and Renney sees Dubsinky generating more offensive opportunties, then yes, that's a good point you made. Would he be able to do it from Hartford? It depends on who the second and third line centermen are. If it's Immonen, then quite possibly. If it's Betts, then sure (although I don't know who would be the fourth line centerman). I guess in short, it's too early to tell because you need to juggle a lot of potential players, both wingers and centermen, to see who's going to stick.

I think I now understand what you're trying to say. I do think, though, that both the fourth line and the AHL afford him similar opportunities, and the experience of getting a lot of ice time, including PP time, and playing with more skilled players may ultimately be better for him (but we don't know if it would be better for the team).

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09-20-2006, 09:23 AM
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I think Dubinsky makes the team without a problem and they use the Prucha model with him. Start him on the fourth and move him up. I wouldn't mind this approach as long as a decision is made shortly. As in if he doesn't take to the pro game and light minutes, something he looks like he'll do, move him back to HFD. I just hope Dubi plays lights out and forces the Rangers to do nothing but move him up in the roster.

If its my decision, I've made it already. He makes the team and is given a legit opportunity. Dubinsky has been on an unreal tear to the point of sending him down to HFD not being an option. Just ride the wave and see him tackle each and every step with success.

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09-20-2006, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
If he goes to Hartford, is he still going to have to wait for a callup in order to get on the 4th line in NY? The Rangers seem very very careful about putting rookies into the lineup and they don't want to get them in over their heads.
I feel that Renney's strategy involves letting a kid take one step at a time, and the staircase Renney lets a kid go up through aren't short. Renney would never let a kid make a big jump, like from the CHL to a 4th line, or from the AHL to a 2nd line.

Thats kind of how he have handled Prucha, slowly letting him take a step at a time. It sure looks like Dubinsky and/or Dawes might make the roster on opening night, on a 4th line. The first step would be to show that they can handle a regular shift defensivly, nothing else will be expected from them, 0-0 is a win situation.
'
Then on a night when things are gooing really well, they might get a shift on a 2nd PP unit. They might get a shift late in a game, like Moore where used a few times when he where hot. If they can handle these first small steps, which really aren't that tough, they will feel really good about themselfs. Making the NHL are a big dream for kids like Dubinsky and Dawes, its hard for us to understand how big it is for them. Renney wants to make sure that its a positive experience, the easier roles they get, the more likely it is for them to pass the test.

Its maybe after 20 games these kids will be given a chance to show what they did in camp, that they are able to handle bigger roles and produce. Both Dubinsky and Dawes certainly have more offensive upside then Dom Moore did, but aren't maybe established as Prucha where in the pro game. If everyone is healty I think that role will be as a 2b kind of line, where the lines above them would loose icetime in their favor, which certainly would be good for vets like Jagr. Playing an avg of 13-14 minutes per night is defenitly enough for kids like Dubinsky.

For example Jeff Carter only played a avg of 12.04 per game for Philly last season, Umberger played 13 Richard played 15. Infact only 4 rookie forwards in the NHL last season played more then 16 minutes per game in avg., only 9 played more then 15.

So if Dubinsky and Dawes starts in a role where they get 12 minutes of ice time per game, are moved up to 13 1/4 into the season, and used as first options to fill in for injurys ect, I defenitly think they won't get to little ice time to develop. The most important thing do is that they are able to do the same job as Dom Moore for example did last season, taking care of the defensive aspects. If they do that they will be used atleast 12 minutes per night (unless their are 30 minutes of special teams like last season), and not get 5 minutes like Lundmark got at times...

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09-20-2006, 09:38 AM
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Larry Melnyk
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I think Dubinsky makes the team without a problem and they use the Prucha model with him. Start him on the fourth and move him up. I wouldn't mind this approach as long as a decision is made shortly. As in if he doesn't take to the pro game and light minutes, something he looks like he'll do, move him back to HFD. I just hope Dubi plays lights out and forces the Rangers to do nothing but move him up in the roster.

If its my decision, I've made it already. He makes the team and is given a legit opportunity. Dubinsky has been on an unreal tear to the point of sending him down to HFD not being an option. Just ride the wave and see him tackle each and every step with success.
I agree 100%. I have no problem whatsoever if Dubisnky makes the team as a "4th liner"..It worked out perfectly for Prucha, who was even sent to Hartford, who grew gradually into his role as one of the top offensive weapons on the team...

It's looking pretty clear that Dubinsky will make the team and it might even be the 2nd line ------but there's no need to rush that big of a jump right out of the gate...He can play on a bottom two lines where we do have some capable linemates to play with him and other wingers can be mixed at matched at times...More then likely, there will also be times where Renney has to sit his *** down to watch...ALl part of the growing process...And as he grows, maybe he moves up to the 2nd line and Betts and/or Cullen slide down........The only problem is if he becoems a spare forward and I can;'t see the Rangers making that mistake...

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09-20-2006, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Lundqvist not beeing on TSN's NYR top 10, and HF top 50, after beeing awarded best goalie in the WCH are another example. Prucha beat out Martin Havlat twice to make the Czech National team, played solid hockey in two great WCH's, still didn't make any ranking anywhere.

To be quit honest, I at times feel big parts of the hockeyworld at times have pretty poor insight, or that they are really narrowminded.

Look at how Toronto Maple Leafs built there team for last season. I can gaurantee you, that if you would have asked any of the 12 coaches in the SEL what they thought of Toronto's roster in a game without a redline, all 12 would have answeared that they didn't know what they where dooing. The game is diffrent in Europe, thats true, but after playing without a redline for 8 years everyone with any insight in International Hockey knew the importance of having puckskill on the wings, and you don't have to be related to Einstein to understand that the same thing would take place in the NHL. Still a team like Toronto with a budget of, what 60m USD?, acted like they had no clue.

There is no doubt that Renney had a good read on what direction to take when the redline where removed, but I don't praise him all that much for it, its like Renney said for the 1/4 of last season, he wheren't suprised how his team played, but he said that he where somewhat suprised how other teams in the league played, how poor they had adopted to the new game.

And this not only applies to prospects, like Dubinsky, Prucha and Lundqvist. European agents here are often pretty outspoken about what teams are interested in their players ect. Last summer a story broke how Toronto either would sign Mariuz Czerkawski or Mikael Samuelsson. Samuelsson who I think all of us understood atleast would be a decent fit in the NHL with the new rules where passed over for Czerkawski who just is a misserable hockeyplayer, one of the laziest guys I've ever seen where a couple of skates, Czerkawski who the previous season had been benched for about half the season by his team in Europe. Not to mention that Samuelsson played a great WCH the spring before, his offensive outburst in Detroit where hardly a suprise. It seems like a lottery at times who gets signed here and not.

Everyone are so name horny, a player who have had good stats one year will get chance after chance to make it. Another player who where a dissapointment early in his career never gets another chance. I see allot of Lubos Bartecko here in the SEL. Two straight summers he haven't gotten a NHL contract, I am 100% sure that he would, without a problem, make 15 out of 30 teams in the NHL, for 500k USD per season. His CV might not be perfect, but he is a good hockeyplayer, who would help a team like Toronto, for example, allot.
Didn't Havlat only play about 20 games? And of course Renney is going to call Dubinsky a future first line center. I know he's good and has second line potential, but didn't he only have like 21 goals in 70 WHL games? I know it is the WHL and he had like an exponential amount of assists, but still, a future first line center would probably amass more than 21 goals in his last year of juniors.

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09-20-2006, 09:40 AM
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Let me take it a paragraph at a time:

First, in the end, the fourth line may be best for the Rangers as a team; of course, I think that really depends on how the rest of the team shakes out. There are so many moving parts, with Nylander, Immonen, Betts, Cullen, Ward and Hall available to play center, as you have guys like Hossa and Dawes, among others, trying to make it at wing, which could make Cullen or Ward a center. Would he be trying to vie for a better role with the Rangers? If Betts is the third line center and Renney sees Dubsinky generating more offensive opportunties, then yes, that's a good point you made. Would he be able to do it from Hartford? It depends on who the second and third line centermen are. If it's Immonen, then quite possibly. If it's Betts, then sure (although I don't know who would be the fourth line centerman). I guess in short, it's too early to tell because you need to juggle a lot of potential players, both wingers and centermen, to see who's going to stick.

I think I now understand what you're trying to say. I do think, though, that both the fourth line and the AHL afford him similar opportunities, and the experience of getting a lot of ice time, including PP time, and playing with more skilled players may ultimately be better for him (but we don't know if it would be better for the team).
I guess I was trying to say that I feel that starting on the 4th line for the Rangers gives him a better chance of rising up to a higher line earlier with the Rangers, because if he goes to Hartford it's likely he'll just be on the 4th line when he's called up anyways.

the extra time in Hartford might help his development...but I guess I see it as; if 2 months into the season he's worked up to the 3rd line and is getting more icetime and doing well, that's better than playing those 2 months in Hartford and just barely getting on to the 4th line in the NHL

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Havlat only played about eight games; he was injured. And of course Renney is going to call Dubinsky a future first line center. I know he's good and has second line potential, but didn't he only have like 21 goals in 70 WHL games? I know it is the WHL and he had like an exponential amount of assists, but still, a future first line center would probably amass more than 21 goals in his last year of juniors.
he was injured for a pretty good stretch last year and it was 21 goals in 51 games, to go along with 46 assists.

that's kind of the thing about Dubinsky though...he really managed to skyrocket his stock with his play lately and has the earmarks of a late bloomer. The guy jumps straight to the AHL and looks great scoring 5 goals and 5 assists in 11 playoff games, and that's after starting the first few games with limited icetime.

1st liner might be a stretch, but with the way he's playing it's not entirely out of the question. I think you just have to make the distinction that he wouldn't be one of those star 1st line centers, just a good one that you'd like to have some star wingers with. that, and when people mention it you have to realize they're not saying he WILL be one, just that there's a slight chance he continues to elevate his game and reaches that status


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09-20-2006, 09:52 AM
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the 4th line is not the place to develop future top-2 line players. Playing around 12-14 minutes on the 3rd line is one thing. Playing less than 10 on the 4th line is silly. Dubinsky's development would be better served playing 18-20 minutes per night in Hartford, as opposed to 8 minutes with the Rangers. I just do not understand why Renney seems to be cemented on the idea that Betts should be the 3rd line center. Move Betts down to the 4th line where he belongs, and the 3rd line center's spot becomes a not-so-bad place for either Immonen or Dubinsky to develop.
Dom Moore got 12.5 TOI/G last season on a 4th line, in a season where we where forced to use the 1st line a ton because nobody else produced.

I don't think its a must for Dubinsky to get atleast 12 minutes per game 82 games in a row. Scratch him against the best teams, put in Marcel Hossa/Colton Orr and move Hollweg to center against Philly, Ottawa and Buffalo. Its in thoose games where Dubinsky might be riding the pine, let him workout in the gym instead. Dress him against the rest, and play him allot more against the weaker teams like Florida, Washington and the Islanders.

I am 100% sure that 80 games for a hockeyplayer, and especially for a kid Dubinsky's age, is too many games for a perfect development. Is always pointed out as a big factor why smaller country's like Sweden and Finland can produce so many hockeyplayers compared to our population. There is probably more late bloomers comming out of Sweden and Finland alone then there is from Canada. The SEL are only 50 games, young players around the age of 18-22 are allowed to practise allot more then kids the same age in NA. Playing a hockeygame breaks down the body, many players usually lose around 10-20 lbs per season in the NHL, thats not good for a kid who are still growing and adding muscles. If Dubinsky would play 70 games instead of 82 games, I would say that his body gets 24 more days of recovery, and 24 more days to build strength. Thats allot and will defenitly be good for a kid Dubinsky's age.

Injurys is also always a factor, we where blessed last season, still our top 9 forward combined missed around 100 games! Thats 100 games for the depthplayers like Hossa, Dawes, Dubinsky, Orr and thr 4th line RW to fill in for. If one of our top 9 forwards gets a season ending injury, like most teams suffers, that number easely goes up to 120.


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09-20-2006, 09:58 AM
  #13
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Dom Moore got 12.5 TOI/G last season on a 4th line, in a season where we where forced to use the 1st line a ton because nobody else produced.
That is misrepresented as MUCH of his time was generated on the PK.
Quote:
I don't think its a must for Dubinsky to get atleast 12 minutes per game 82 games in a row.
Then let him develop his game in Hartford. Giving a future top-2 line player 8 minutes per night on the 4th line is no way to develop him.
Quote:
Scratch him against the best teams, put in Marcel Hossa/Colton Orr and move Hollweg to center against Philly, Ottawa and Buffalo.
That's crazy. What kind of a message are you sending him? That he is good enough against the weak teams, but not against the good teams? Did Hitch scratch Carter or Richards? Did the 'Lanche scratch Hedjuk or Drury? Did the Devils scratch Gomez?

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09-20-2006, 10:01 AM
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I did finally understand what you were...

trying to say, Levitate. I do think there are merits to both the fourth line in the NHL and the AHL - I think he'll have a chance to rise up equally from either, though. If he's tearing it up in the AHL and the then second or third liner is dogging it, it would be a change I think Renney would make. Similarly, he can do it from the fourth line (but something has to not be working on the other lines for that to happen, so a change from someone outside the team can often provide an equal shot in the arm). Of course, being around Renney every day gives him a slight edge, but I think the AHL may be slightly better for him in the end - in other words, it doesn't make a heck of a difference from my standpoint since one is not overwhelmingly better than the other (although I'm not sure an entire season on a fourth line getting 6-8 minutes per night is the best option).

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09-20-2006, 10:05 AM
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Larry Melnyk
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That's crazy. What kind of a message are you sending him? That he is good enough against the weak teams, but not against the good teams? Did Hitch scratch Carter or Richards? Did the 'Lanche scratch Hedjuk or Drury? Did the Devils scratch Gomez?
If he's good enough and playing well enough, he won't get scratched...If he gets scratched because he's not putting out the physical effort, not playing smart enough, or just isn't strong enough, the message being sent and probably recieved is that he just has to work non-stop at improving his game and strength.....

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09-20-2006, 10:11 AM
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After watching him play in person for the first time last night, I was impressed. The first thing that jumped out at me was his size which equates well to the NHL standard. The next thing I noticed was his skating style. Although it seemed a little awkward, he always seemed to be around the puck and he seems to have decent speed once he gets going.

As far as his game, he has some serious potential. He showed more confidence than any other youngster out there last night and even more than Kaspar who I thought had a poor game. He wasn't afraid to throw some hits and I thought he played well defensively.

My suggestion would be to send him down for more seasoning and be the first forward callup due to injury or play. Either way, this kid has a bright future for the Rangers.

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09-20-2006, 10:30 AM
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If he's good enough and playing well enough, he won't get scratched...If he gets scratched because he's not putting out the physical effort, not playing smart enough, or just isn't strong enough, the message being sent and probably recieved is that he just has to work non-stop at improving his game and strength.....
I understand that Larry, but that idea is not what I was replying to. I was replying to simply scratching him against the better teams, regardless of his play. Scratching someone for not playing hard or for general poor play is not the issue for me.

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09-20-2006, 10:36 AM
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Larry Melnyk
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
I understand that Larry, but that idea is not what I was replying to. I was replying to simply scratching him against the better teams, regardless of his play. Scratching someone for not playing hard or for general poor play is not the issue for me.
Cool, my bad...But I am also not against giving a kid (or an older vet) a breather now and then...Keeps everybody rested and on their toes...I think it's great that we might finally be getting to the point where that can happen for ..This is not really relevant to the Dubinsky discussion or your points, just a general observation..

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09-20-2006, 10:43 AM
  #19
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Giving a future top-2 line player 8 minutes per night on the 4th line is no way to develop him.
Don't know where you get 8 from? Moore played an avg of 10 minutes 5 on 5 last season. And so many of thoose games had a total of 28-30 minutes of specialteams. That number will be down this season to atleast 20, maybe less. And we used Jagr a ton.

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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
That's crazy. What kind of a message are you sending him? That he is good enough against the weak teams, but not against the good teams? Did Hitch scratch Carter or Richards? Did the 'Lanche scratch Hedjuk or Drury? Did the Devils scratch Gomez?
I don't know, what kind of messege did it send to Lundqvist? Renney would have played him like that all year if Weekes wouldn't have been so bad.

And name how many great player Hitch have developed in the NHL? Richards and Carter still must develop allot before they can be seen as great, who did he develop in Dallas? Brendan Morrow? I don't think he is a great example.

For numerous reasons Hejduk aren't a good example. See age, experience, and a much stronger core in Colorado then we have here now. They had both Sakic and Forsberg, and both where in their prime. Thats THE perfect enviorement to give a rookie a chance. Hejduk really didn't have much pressure on him. He would have gotten decent stats by just keeping his stick to the ice, and there where never the same pressure on him as there would be on Dubinsky if he played on the 1st line in NY today. Pressure is a big factor. Colorado could have played Jeff Toms on the 1st line and still be a lock to make the PO's. If we had Thornton, Crosby, Scott Niedermayer and Lundqvist on the roster I am sure Renney might be willing to gamble more with a kid like Dawes.

Though my point is that if Dubinsky plays 12-14 minutes per game for 60 games per season, thats probably perfect, its defenily better for his development then playing 20 minutes per night for 82 with Jagr. If he plays 10 min per night 55 games, and 20 games 15 minutes per night its also good. Thats what you should argue against if you don't agree with having Dubinsky on the 4th line.

Still agree with everyone that HFD is also a good place for Dubinsky. It would defenitly not hurt him.


Last edited by Ola: 09-20-2006 at 10:54 AM.
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09-20-2006, 11:16 AM
  #20
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Don't know where you get 8 from? Moore played an avg of 10 minutes 5 on 5 last season. And so many of thoose games had a total of 28-30 minutes of specialteams.
And Hollweg averaged under 8 minutes on the 4th line.
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I don't know, what kind of messege did it send to Lundqvist?
Henke was not the starter, as opposed to being scratched against the best team. Big difference. Try it this way. Can you come up with a single team that used your strategy of scratching it's better prospects against the better team? I did not think so.
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For numerous reasons Hejduk aren't a good example.
He is a very good example becuase he was a top-2 line prospect for the organization. We can go through this exercise with virtually any other prospect on any other team and you will be hard-pressed to come up with even one example of where teams willy-nilly scratched their better prospects when playing better teams.
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And name how many great player Hitch have developed in the NHL?
More than the Rangers. Look at his Dallas teams.
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Richards and Carter still must develop allot before they can be seen as great,
Off course they do. But the point is that neither Hitch nor any other coach would simply scratch them when playing the Devils.
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who did he develop in Dallas? Brendan Morrow? I don't think he is a great example.
Why?
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Pressure is a big factor.
That is simply an excuse, IMO.
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Though my point is that if Dubinsky plays 12-14 minutes per game for 60 games per season, thats probably perfect, its defenily better for his development then playing 20 minutes per night for 82 with Jagr.
Completely debateable as Hedjuk and Drury developed just fine playing alongside Sakic

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09-20-2006, 11:31 AM
  #21
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Moore averaged...

8:21 of even strength time, not 10.

I do agree ola that 12-14 minutes in the NHL for Dubsinky should be fine - if that's what he can get. But we have to remember that every prospect is different and every situation is different. Some are ready for the challenge and some need to be brought along a bit slower. And of course, there are other considerations within each organization that often dictates when/where a kid will play.

TB - I think there's a difference between Drury and/or Hejduk as compared to Dubsinky - I tend to think that it's tougher for a young centerman, especially many 20 year olds not named Sidney, to handle the responsibilities of playing with a Jagr. I've always thought it to be easier for a young winger to play with a decent and experienced centerman and winger (i.e., Nylander and Jagr).

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09-20-2006, 11:35 AM
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Sorry TB, you come close, but aren't really there. Its just not likely that Renney only would play Dubinsky 8 minutes per night. Moore played 18, with all the specialteams. There is no reason not to expect 11-13 minutes for 90% of the games. Besides with all the PK time Moore and Orts got, the rest it took after them lost them a few ES shifts.

And you can't compare us with Colorado who not only had Forsberg and Sakic, Blake and Roy. They had a tremendous roster. There simply wheren't much pressure at all playing with a Sakic or Forsberg, not in comparision what it would be with Jagr here next season. They would do great as a team no matter how Hejduk played. If we play Dubinsky with Jagr and he don't produce, we will loose, and it will be extremely tough on his confidence.

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09-20-2006, 11:35 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I think there's a difference between Drury and/or Hejduk as compared to Dubsinky - I tend to think that it's tougher for a young centerman, especially many 20 year olds not named Sidney, to handle the responsibilities of playing with a Jagr. I've always thought it to be easier for a young winger to play with a decent and experienced centerman and winger (i.e., Nylander and Jagr).
To that end, I believe that is why Drury spent his rookie year playing wing on Sakic's line. It was easier for him to learn the NHL game without all of the responsibilities of being a center. However, the fact remains that not him, nor Hedjuk, not Tanguay or any other "future top-2 line player" was developed playing part-time on the 4th line (part time due to being scratched against the good teams of the league).

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09-20-2006, 11:38 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Sorry TB, you come close, but aren't really there. Its just not likely that Renney only would play Dubinsky 8 minutes per night. Moore played 10, with all the
specialteams. There is no reason not to expect 11-13 minutes for 90% of the games.
Until I see a rooke playing 14-15 minutes per night, I will have my reservations.
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And you can't compare us with Colorado who not only had Forsberg and Sakic, Blake and Roy. They had a tremendous roster. There simply wheren't much pressure at all playing with a Sakic or Forsberg, not in comparision what it would be with Jagr here next season. They would do great as a team no matter how Hejduk played.
It need not be Colarado. Your original point was that he should be developed by being scratched against the better teams of the league. You can pick ANY organization in the NHL and NOT ONE of them took that track when developing players.
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If we play Dubinsky with Jagr and he don't produce, it will be extremely tough on his confidence.
First of all, I am not advocating playing him with Jagr. But since you brought it up, you never know until you try. However, Dubinsky stands no chance of playing on the top-2 lines, barring lots of injuries.

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09-20-2006, 11:48 AM
  #25
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Ola...

you really need to check your stats before you post. Moore played 12:30 per night. If Dubinsky did in fact make it as a fourth liner, he would start the season with 7-10 minutes per night, if he got PP time; 7-8 without. He'd get more if he played on the PK.

I do disagree about confidence. If he was fragile like Jamie Lundmark, yes; if he was a guy who will take it as a learning experience and work hard to get to where he needs to be, because he was there, then it could be taken as a positive. Those youngsters that lose confidence more often than not are guys who aren't NHL material mentally, IMO.

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