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Kharlamov or Bure?

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Old
10-03-2006, 02:18 PM
  #76
YMB29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
If that is just my truth,then why has Russia's dominance completely ended since the fall of the Soviet Union? If you answer with economics or politics i'm just going to move on and let your fantasy stand,you don't even have to waste your typing time responding.I will assume reality is just something you cannot deal with when it comes to this matter.
Russian players playing in the NHL is one of the reasons, but you are making it seem like it is the only one.



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but don't tell me there is any other reason other then you are now under the same constraints as everyone else why you can't be the dominant team over there even to this day.
Again, you are confusing everyone else with Canada and ignoring post-Soviet problems of Russian hockey.

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10-03-2006, 02:35 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
Russian players playing in the NHL is one of the reasons, but you are making it seem like it is the only one.




Again, you are confusing everyone else with Canada and ignoring post-Soviet problems of Russian hockey.
It's easily the biggest reason if not the only.

I agree that your hockey organizations problems have contributed to Russia not having won one,two or three world championships over the years since the break-up of the Soviet Union but that's it.Russia's annual spanking of everyone at the world's was going to end the minute their players started playing in the n.h.l like Canadian players do.

And it did.

And that's the only point i was making.If it isn't true then have at me gentlemen.

But it is true.

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10-03-2006, 03:05 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
Yes and No. The global hockey world has indeed changed dramatically.No team can send their best team there anymore (the Soviets would really clean up now eh?) The important thing is that Russia can't send their best teams anymore and in that sense the W.C. as a tournament is comparable to yesterdays when you survey Russia's results since the fall of the Soviet union.Russia still has great top end talent,you take all their best players and get them under the old Soviet system and they would still dominate that tourney today against a bunch or put-togethers from the n.h.l playoffs from each country. But when they can't...........you get what you have now and what you would have had in 1977 if your players were all playing over here.That's very comparable.!!
No it is not comparable.

In the 1970's there were hardly any Europeans in the NHL. Every European team sent its best to the WC. The Soviets WERE NOT beating up on put-together teams made up of players free from the NHL play-offs. That only applies to the teams Canada sent.

If you were to equate the 1970's World Championships to today, it would be a best on best tournament without Canada's best participating.

This isn't rocket science.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
If that is just my truth,then why has Russia's dominance completely ended since the fall of the Soviet Union? If you answer with economics or politics i'm just going to move on and let your fantasy stand,you don't even have to waste your typing time responding.I will assume reality is just something you cannot deal with when it comes to this matter.!!
There are many factors. However, the main one is because the rest of the hockey world has caught up with Canada, Russia & the Czechs. Why is Canada nowhere close to as dominant as they used to be? Could you imagine Canada finishing 7th in a 1970's best on best tourney?

Russian hockey is not what it used to be due to a combination of economics, a lack of internal cohesiveness and the improvement of other hockey nations.


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Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
but don't tell me there is any other reason other then you are now under the same constraints as everyone else why you can't be the dominant team over there even to this day.You picked up gold after gold over there in those days because of the nature of international hockey at that given time. You had great teams,but your Gold results are grossly inflated due to the factors we have talked about.!!
Apart from Canada, please tell me what constraints every other country was under for the WC in the 70's. The Soviets beat their best fair and square.

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Old
10-03-2006, 03:43 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
Are you saying this is just MY truth? That's what some posters say.......what do you say?

If that is just my truth,then why has Russia's dominance completely ended since the fall of the Soviet Union? If you answer with economics or politics i'm just going to move on and let your fantasy stand,you don't even have to waste your typing time responding.I will assume reality is just something you cannot deal with when it comes to this matter.
You may dismiss it all you want, but a HUGE part of the Russian hockey decline is economics because that directly coorelates to player development.

A perfect example is the WJC. Canada & the Soviet Union were trading titles back and forth throughout the 1980's and early 90's.
Notice Canada's run of 5 straight titles came immediately after the fall of the USSR (1993-97) Hmmm....coincidence? The WCJ format didn't change - can't blame it on that.

Not your truth or my truth, but the real TRUTH is Russian hockey was on life support for a considerable amount of time. You can't develop quality players when you have to worry how you're gonna pay for equipment. Player development from generations 74-81 isn't close to what its been in the past.

Only recently since wealthy conglomerates have been investing in teams do you start seeing the Kovalchuks, Ovechkins, Malkins, Zherdevs being produced again.

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10-03-2006, 05:38 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
You may dismiss it all you want, but a HUGE part of the Russian hockey decline is economics because that directly coorelates to player development.

A perfect example is the WJC. Canada & the Soviet Union were trading titles back and forth throughout the 1980's and early 90's.
Notice Canada's run of 5 straight titles came immediately after the fall of the USSR (1993-97) Hmmm....coincidence? The WCJ format didn't change - can't blame it on that.

Not your truth or my truth, but the real TRUTH is Russian hockey was on life support for a considerable amount of time. You can't develop quality players when you have to worry how you're gonna pay for equipment. Player development from generations 74-81 isn't close to what its been in the past.

Only recently since wealthy conglomerates have been investing in teams do you start seeing the Kovalchuks, Ovechkins, Malkins, Zherdevs being produced again.
O.K.

Have it your way.

But since you cling to this ******** i'm going to have it my way also!!

Here goes.You know your big win in 1981 at the Canada cup? Mike liut and the team were paid off to throw the game by bookies in Vegas that year.That's the ONLY reason you guys ever beat us in that tournament.Beat us 8-1!!.....are you kidding me?no way that happens without us throwing that game.,Look at the team we had,check out our line-up and all the stars on it,you think that team loses to anyone 8-1? That team would hardly ever lose a game to anyone let alone get blown out 8-1 .Nobody knows that's what happened but that's what happened,how could it any other way? Don't bother pointing out to me how well the Soviets played or anything else just listen to what i say here and accept it like i've got to accept your reasoning on Russia's immediate end of dominance at the worlds the moment the Soviet union and the system they used ended.Because it isn't because of what's patently clear.......it's what you say it is despite all evidence to the contrary right?

So there you go,prove me wrong. I'll never budge from this no matter what you say,after all........look at how awesome that Canadian team was,how could it have happened without them throwing it in such a manner.

How do ya like them apples?.Two can play this game.

You've got Russia going down the tubes at the worlds immediately after the Soviet union and their system breaks down but it's the economics and politics and Canada losing in 81 due to the fix being on.

it would'nt matter if God himself came here and told you what is so obvious,you still would'nt accept it then either. So why should i concerning 81?.....why admit you beat us fair and square?

i'm not giving you anything you refuse to give anyone else.I'll just play the same game because it is a game you're playing here,nothing else.


Fine. Now let's move on i guess,we know where we stand here.

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Old
10-11-2006, 01:30 AM
  #81
Crazyhorse
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Kharlamov, no question about it. He was a dominating factor in the summitseries, until Clark ended it...

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Old
10-14-2006, 12:40 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
Such is the legend of not playing in the NHL. I guess that was Paul Henderson's big mistake, playing in the NHL. How come Kharlamov was only Soviet MVP twice? (including a tie with Maltsev once)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_MVP_%28hockey%29
Not playing in the NHL vs. playing in the NHL doesn't hurt you, but coming from some clutch goals to a mediocre NHL career does.

Kharlamov only won the MVP twice but he was elite every year he played.

Awards only tell a small part of the story anyway.

I mean Brodeur is going to lap the NHL history books in terms of career shutouts and will eventually pass Roy for career wins and he has a grand total of 2 Vezina's...and those arguably didn't even come in his two best seasons.

Roy only won 3 Vezina's. Yet many regard him as the best ever. How can the best ever only be considered the "best in the league" 3 times?

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Old
10-14-2006, 01:02 PM
  #83
Nalyd Psycho
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And, for perspective, here's some more two time MVPs:
Jean Beliveau
Bobby Hull
Stan Mikita
Guy Lafluer
Mark Messier
Dominic Hasek
Phil Esposito

Some 1 time winners:
Jaromir Jagr
Peter Forsberg
Joe Sakic
Bryan Trottier
Jacques Plante
Boom Boom Geoffrion
Andy Bathgate
Ted Kennedy
Milt Schmidt
Maurice Richard

Lets face it, winning just 1 MVP award, particularly when beating legends like Tretiak, Petrov, Maltsev, Mikhailov, Firsov etc is quite the accomplishment.

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Old
10-14-2006, 11:50 PM
  #84
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Yet another rational post by cyclops. How have you not own the nobel peace prize yet? If you were a Russian poster you would have been banned a loooong time ago.


Last edited by VladNYC: 10-14-2006 at 11:59 PM.
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Old
10-14-2006, 11:56 PM
  #85
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This is not even up for discussion. Bure was too one-dimentional. Kharlamov had the edge and the nastiness to his game that Pavel never had. He could hit, he was speedy, he had a great shot and a warrior mentality.
Bure was faster (though the difference wouldn't have been as great on 1970s ice and on 1970s skates) and very gifted in winning quick one-on-one encounters, but Kharlamov was a much more complete player with a winning attitude. Also, a much more colorful person. A bit like 1970s version of Ovechkin but without any brakes in his off-the-ice life.

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Old
10-15-2006, 01:51 AM
  #86
Nalyd Psycho
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Bure had an edge and a winning spirit before his knees blew out and his spirit was crushed. Back in 94 he was amazing.

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Old
10-15-2006, 01:59 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Bure had an edge and a winning spirit before his knees blew out and his spirit was crushed. Back in 94 he was amazing.
Eh, not much winning with all that spirit. After '94 it seemed like personal statistical achievements mattered for him a bit more than team success.

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Old
10-15-2006, 02:07 AM
  #88
Nalyd Psycho
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Eh, not much winning with all that spirit. After '94 it seemed like personal statistical achievements mattered for him a bit more than team success.
It was more after 95-96, after the knee injury. Really killed his career even if he was still effective after, he lost his edge.

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Old
10-24-2006, 02:59 PM
  #89
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Kharlamov.

Yes, Bure was very talented but ... no match to Kharlamov by any means.

Kharlamov, Firsov, Makarov, Maltsev and then probably Bure.

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