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I think it's time we start shipping some teams..

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Old
11-18-2003, 10:33 AM
  #1
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I think it's time we start shipping some teams..

...

This may alienate some teams fans and all, but hey..it's a topic I wanted to expound upon.

First, we have lost two teams that came from cities with very strong fanbases. I'm speaking of quebec and winnipeg. Now the quebec team is doing fine in colorado..that was an ok move with me..even though I think the fan base was much stronger in winnipeg than in pheonix, the move to pheonix isn't really that..that bad.

What bothers me is the league's fixation on saturating the NY market..which is frankly over-rated..and the ill-advised move to nashville, which has so far easily been an utter disgrace.

Speaking on the NY market...there are a ton of excuses as to why the isles and devils cant sell their arenas seats very well. The reason, in my honest opinion is that it isn't about high ticket prices..or a bad on-ice product..hell the isles made it twice to the playoffs the last two years after sucking for a decade. As for the devils they've been having perhaps the best decade along with the wings. It's not high ticket prices either..I mean look, so many more teams sell their seats at much higher costs than the isles and devs, and they can still fill about 15,000 seats a game, which is very acceptable. The isles seating capacity is actually just above that. Hell they even had a two-for one sale the other night vs. the Habs, and there was still so many seats left open..the arena was dead..and this is the loud aggressive isles fans we've all heard about?? They sound like bandwagon fans to me..just like the devs..when they're in the playoffs..they show up.
The real reason is this: I think the NY market is a ranger market..the fans are just more into the rangers then the isles and devils combined..so we dont need 3 teams there...move one of them up to say quebec again..or some other market..and move nashville back to a deserving place such as winnipeg. This is a great sport and some cities dont realize this, and that's fine. But really..when the devils on a saturday night..the champs..cant barely get 10,000 fans..it makes you sick..they are awful fans. An awful market. No excuses for it.

Just my personal opinion.

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11-18-2003, 10:45 AM
  #2
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The Isles have been around for quite awile now, since the 1970's, I don't think they're going anywhere, they're won some SC's, and they're starting to win again after years and years of rebuilding. The Devils have been in NJ for about 20 years now, even if they don't sell out all the time, they must make money or else they wouldn't be there.

I worry more about the league expanding into non-traditional markets like Florida or Arizona, like why does Florida have 2 NHL teams? Nahville could come around if they make the playoffs (everyone likes a winner). It could be a sustained winning team that brings around Phoenix and the Florida teams fans' (look at the Marlins). I'm fine with Colorado because at least it does snow there and they've had college hockey teams and the Rockies, so the area is more knowledgible about the game.

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11-18-2003, 11:05 AM
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I think you may incur the wrath of some loyal Nashville fans here, Tucker.

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11-18-2003, 11:24 AM
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He deserves much worse, but I'll be gentle, Kira.

I'll say this, removing a team that has had no success from a location based solely on attendance is not fair. Most cities in the NHL won't support a loser for 6 years. Teams like TB are finally getting serious winners. Florida has been waiting and aside from 1 year, has had little success. Same with Carolina. Nashville and Atlanta had none. Wait till Nashville/Carolina/Atlanta/Florida goes to the playoffs a few times in a row and doesn't sell out those games before you pull the plug. Both teams have bright futures and what will likely happen if you move them is the city they end up in will have a consistent (maybe even excellent) winner on their hands. While the original city, the one who had to endure all the failure, gets left with nothing. Not exactly a smart way to do things.

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11-18-2003, 11:24 AM
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What gives anyone the right to decide the NHL should contract a team? Teams are placed in a market for a simple reason: economics.

If Winnipeg and Quebec would have been profitable places for NHL teams, they would still be there. There IS money to be made in the Nashville market. Right now, it is the team with the lowest payroll. But you know what? This is a sports town. When the team being built via draft gets over the hump, the Preds will be the hottest ticket in town. There is a NEW (not hockey saturated) market here. And Middle TN is not populated by the cast of Hee Haw like so many of you seem to think. I would bet the average income here is significantly higher in adjusted dollars than in Winnipeg, Quebec, or Hartford. And yes, they do have teeth...

Money talks.

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11-18-2003, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnrocketman
What gives anyone the right to decide the NHL should contract a team? Teams are placed in a market for a simple reason: economics.

If Winnipeg and Quebec would have been profitable places for NHL teams, they would still be there. There IS money to be made in the Nashville market. Right now, it is the team with the lowest payroll. But you know what? This is a sports town. When the team being built via draft gets over the hump, the Preds will be the hottest ticket in town. There is a NEW (not hockey saturated) market here. And Middle TN is not populated by the cast of Hee Haw like so many of you seem to think. I would bet the average income here is significantly higher in adjusted dollars than in Winnipeg, Quebec, or Hartford. And yes, they do have teeth...

Money talks.
Another things, right now most of the disposable income of sports fans is going to the Titans. After talking to Larry Stone of Titans Radio, he's hoping for at best a 9-7 team next year because of cap problems (5 players taking up a 1/3 of it). He said the next few years will be bleak in terms of success. If this fall coincides with the Preds rise, then the Preds will be riding high.

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11-18-2003, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnrocketman
What gives anyone the right to decide the NHL should contract a team? Teams are placed in a market for a simple reason: economics.

If Winnipeg and Quebec would have been profitable places for NHL teams, they would still be there. There IS money to be made in the Nashville market. Right now, it is the team with the lowest payroll. But you know what? This is a sports town. When the team being built via draft gets over the hump, the Preds will be the hottest ticket in town. There is a NEW (not hockey saturated) market here. And Middle TN is not populated by the cast of Hee Haw like so many of you seem to think. I would bet the average income here is significantly higher in adjusted dollars than in Winnipeg, Quebec, or Hartford. And yes, they do have teeth...

Money talks.
quebec and winnipeg had strong fanbases? Why don't you compare their attendance with Nashville's over the last 5 years, since has "so far easily been an utter disgrace". Post the results here too so everyone can see how wrong you are.

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11-18-2003, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieHard
Get the new CBA with $31M cap, lower the ticket prices by 20% and see if the crowds arrive. If not and the owners are still losing money, ditch them.
If they do that teams like Quebec and Winnipeg should be brought back in and do away with some of the current teams that don't draw.

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11-18-2003, 11:44 AM
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..and the ill-advised move to nashville, which has so far easily been an utter disgrace.


watch your filthy mouth. we love our hockey here in nashville.

 
Old
11-18-2003, 11:46 AM
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Chicago is 2nd last in attendance right now, why not move them? Who cares if they're an original 6 team, they gotta go!

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11-18-2003, 11:47 AM
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whomever said it's about economics is dead on. the financial background of the city is something that's taken into consideration when a franchise is awarded. what do phoenix, nashville and even atlanta have in common...that winnipeg doesn't? EXTREMELY high per capita income. I'm not talking about, "yeah, there's some money in those cities,' I'm talking some of the highest in the country. Same goes for an older team like the Kings. If there's money, there's potential. When a team like Atlanta or Nashville starts winning(and I think both teams are on the cusp of breaking out, agree or disagree if you will) there's likely to be a whole lot of money coming in. A place like Winnipeg, while it has the fan base, is more of a blue-collar type of town(nothing wrong with that, mind you) where nashville and atlanta are kept afloat by a more white collar base. the league understands that, and it's the reason for all of the "injustice." teams move for a reason...and if it's deemed fit that these "sun belt" teams can no longer thrive in their city, then maybe they'll move,too...but i think it's hardly a "disgrace." we're talking about young teams in non-traditional markets. give them time....but i don't think you'll have much choice, because i think we've seen the last expansion for quite some time, and there are several teams(including a couple of canadian teams i wont mention) that are in more danger than the "southern teams" of losing their franchise.

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11-18-2003, 11:51 AM
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Ignorance is bliss eh? Do your homework before you make such degrading statements.

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11-18-2003, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids
whomever said it's about economics is dead on. the financial background of the city is something that's taken into consideration when a franchise is awarded. what do phoenix, nashville and even atlanta have in common...that winnipeg doesn't? EXTREMELY high per capita income. I'm not talking about, "yeah, there's some money in those cities,' I'm talking some of the highest in the country. Same goes for an older team like the Kings. If there's money, there's potential. When a team like Atlanta or Nashville starts winning(and I think both teams are on the cusp of breaking out, agree or disagree if you will) there's likely to be a whole lot of money coming in. A place like Winnipeg, while it has the fan base, is more of a blue-collar type of town(nothing wrong with that, mind you) where nashville and atlanta are kept afloat by a more white collar base. the league understands that, and it's the reason for all of the "injustice." teams move for a reason...and if it's deemed fit that these "sun belt" teams can no longer thrive in their city, then maybe they'll move,too...but i think it's hardly a "disgrace." we're talking about young teams in non-traditional markets. give them time....but i don't think you'll have much choice, because i think we've seen the last expansion for quite some time, and there are several teams(including a couple of canadian teams i wont mention) that are in more danger than the "southern teams" of losing their franchise.
What's Columus' per capita income, any money in that city?

The Jackets are in their fourth year and haven't had a sniff......meanwhile they're still a hot ticket.
If I remember correctly Atlanta and Nashville's buildings were already empty by their fourth seasons.

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11-18-2003, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomhower
What's Columus' per capita income, any money in that city?

The Jackets are in their fourth year and haven't had a sniff......meanwhile they're still a hot ticket.
If I remember correctly Atlanta and Nashville's buildings were already empty by their fourth seasons.
yeah, and you tell me what other major sports team is in columbus. if they had an NBA or NFL team...believe me...things wouldn't be the way they are.

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11-18-2003, 11:58 AM
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Season four Nashville averaged 14800. Did the Jets ever average more than 14000?3

As far as Columbus goes they have done better, but it's easier when you're the only game in town. Remember we have to compete with the corporate dollar with the Titans.

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11-18-2003, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids
yeah, and you tell me what other major sports team is in columbus. if they had an NBA or NFL team...believe me...things wouldn't be the way they are.
You may be right, but the jackets do take a backseat to the Buckeyes.

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11-18-2003, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomhower
If they do that teams like Quebec and Winnipeg should be brought back in and do away with some of the current teams that don't draw.
Not to burst your bubble, but ticket prices were a HELL of a lot lower than 80% of 2003 prices when the Jets & Nord's moved 8 or so years ago.

Unfortunately, I don't think that the markets have the population & corporate support to make a team viable.

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11-18-2003, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids
yeah, and you tell me what other major sports team is in columbus. if they had an NBA or NFL team...believe me...things wouldn't be the way they are.
But they have OSU, I think the football stadium holds at least 70,000.

Detoit has all 4 major teams, and besides the Tigers, all of them draw pretty big crowds, even Ann Arbor isn't that far away, but the Big House pulls in over 100,000. The Lions are absolutely brutal, haven't won the title since 1957, but never have a problem drawing near capcity, even at the huge ass Silverdome, which held about 80,000. Detroit is mostly a blue-collar town as well, with all the UAW jobs.

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11-18-2003, 12:02 PM
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Someone tell me if the Nords or the Jets averaged more than 14k any of their last 5 years?

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11-18-2003, 12:03 PM
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We also have the Vols in Knoxville, MTSU in Murfreesboro and Vanderbilt in Nashville all competing for that same dollar.

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11-18-2003, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness
But they have OSU, I think the football stadium holds at least 70,000.

Detoit has all 4 major teams, and besides the Tigers, all of them draw pretty big crowds, even Ann Arbor isn't that far away, but the Big House pulls in over 100,000. The Lions are absolutely brutal, haven't won the title since 1957, but never have a problem drawing near capcity, even at the huge ass Silverdome, which held about 80,000. Detroit is mostly a blue-collar town as well, with all the UAW jobs.
yes, but the wings are consistent winners. the pistons usually do pretty well, also. the nfl...there only 8 home games a year, and even the bengals can sell those out. there's no question that detroit is a more viable hockey market than nashville. none of this is really related to the original discussion, though.

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11-18-2003, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman
We also have the Vols in Knoxville, MTSU in Murfreesboro and Vanderbilt in Nashville all competing for that same dollar.
and not to mention the most consistent winner in pro football the last two years...the Titans

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11-18-2003, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman
Someone tell me if the Nords or the Jets averaged more than 14k any of their last 5 years?
I'm pretty sure the Jets were around 15,000 their last 2 years (I don't have the stats in front of me, but I couldn't get many tickets in those years!). The ONLY reason they were moved is because the greedy owner held up the city, trying to get himself a new, LARGER arena. When the citizens voted it down, he moved the team, then sold it in Phoenix. The old Winnipeg Arena holds just under 16,000 (it's being used by the AHL Moose right now), and most games were near-sellouts. Nashville did very well for 2 seasons, when it was the new game in town. But now the attendance is falling, and in a building that holds 18,000 people, 13,000 looks small.

I don't know about the Nordiques, but I would guess they sold rather well, as they won their division the year before they moved.

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11-18-2003, 12:14 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggs 10
I'm pretty sure the Jets were around 15,000 their last 2 years (I don't have the stats in front of me, but I couldn't get many tickets in those years!). The ONLY reason they were moved is because the greedy owner held up the city, trying to get himself a new, LARGER arena. When the citizens voted it down, he moved the team, then sold it in Phoenix. The old Winnipeg Arena holds just under 16,000 (it's being used by the AHL Moose right now), and most games were near-sellouts. Nashville did very well for 2 seasons, when it was the new game in town. But now the attendance is falling, and in a building that holds 18,000 people, 13,000 looks small.

I don't know about the Nordiques, but I would guess they sold rather well, as they won their division the year before they moved.
It holds 17k but anyway. I'm pretty sure the Jets averaged just over 13 their last few years, this was brought up a few weeks ago, I have the bookmarks at home to give the actual stats.

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11-18-2003, 12:15 PM
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Actually I just checked and the Lions are near the bottom in attendance.

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