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Do they deserve to be int eh HHOF pt. 4

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09-21-2006, 06:37 PM
  #1
Big Phil
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Do they deserve to be int eh HHOF pt. 4

Here's your choices, yes or no, simple.


Brendan Shanahan - His career at this point is not going to get any better so its fair to judge him now. he was a first team all-star in '94 and '00. Second team '02. he played for Canada in the '91 and '96 World Cups, and the '98 and '02 Olympics. Twice a 50 goal man, once a 100 point man, his point total highs are 102, 94, 88, 78, 78. Not bad but throw in the fact that he was traded to the Wings and like Butch Goring, is considered the missing piece of the puzzle to his team. He's won three Cups, and his playoff numbers are lower than you think but still I cant think of a time when Shanahan choked. To me he's a HHOFer. But the knock on him is that he's never been a future HHOFer in the eyes of many and never was really a top 10 player in the game I dont think.

Mark Recchi - At around a point per game for his career, had big seasons of 123, 113, 107, 97 and 91 points. That's good. Throw in his '91 Cup with Pittsburgh in which he was huge in. Other than that he was a good player in the Canes Cup win last year and he was a second team all-star in '92. You want to see more of those in his career though. The thing with Recchi is that he was scoring no matter where he went. He led the league in assists in '00. He was a top 10 scorer a few times. Now the thing is do you consider him great or not?

Chico Resch - You never hear much about him in this type of topic. Resch ended his career with a 231-224 record. Thats not great but he was a second team all-star in '76 and '79, finishing second both times to Dryden. Won one Stanley Cup in '80 although Smith had the bigger role. Had some great seasons with the Isles, was picked for the '76 Canada Cup and even though he played on some woeful New Jersey teams he still maintained an above .500 record. I'm not campagning for him but I'm trowing his name out and seeing what happens.

Rick MacLeish - He had Hall of Fame written all over him early in his career. His point seasons go 100, 97, 79, 77, 74. Not that much different from Shanahan's. Was a top ten scorer twice, and in the Flyers two Cup wins he led them both times in points. Yes him, not Clarke, not Barber. he has 759 points in 846 games. Then he has 107 points in 114 playoff games. Scored the Cup winner in '74. Also think about how the Flyers did when he wasnt in the '76 playoffs. They got swept. Sure the habs would have likely won anyways but to me he was a huge part of those teams and that proves it. To me he was as important if not more to those Flyers teams than Barber, and to a certain extent Clarke. Its not that he NEEDS to be in there but I often wonder why his name is never thrown out.

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09-21-2006, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Here's your choices, yes or no, simple.


Brendan Shanahan - His career at this point is not going to get any better so its fair to judge him now. he was a first team all-star in '94 and '00. Second team '02. he played for Canada in the '91 and '96 World Cups, and the '98 and '02 Olympics. Twice a 50 goal man, once a 100 point man, his point total highs are 102, 94, 88, 78, 78. Not bad but throw in the fact that he was traded to the Wings and like Butch Goring, is considered the missing piece of the puzzle to his team. He's won three Cups, and his playoff numbers are lower than you think but still I cant think of a time when Shanahan choked. To me he's a HHOFer. But the knock on him is that he's never been a future HHOFer in the eyes of many and never was really a top 10 player in the game I dont think.

Mark Recchi - At around a point per game for his career, had big seasons of 123, 113, 107, 97 and 91 points. That's good. Throw in his '91 Cup with Pittsburgh in which he was huge in. Other than that he was a good player in the Canes Cup win last year and he was a second team all-star in '92. You want to see more of those in his career though. The thing with Recchi is that he was scoring no matter where he went. He led the league in assists in '00. He was a top 10 scorer a few times. Now the thing is do you consider him great or not?

Chico Resch - You never hear much about him in this type of topic. Resch ended his career with a 231-224 record. Thats not great but he was a second team all-star in '76 and '79, finishing second both times to Dryden. Won one Stanley Cup in '80 although Smith had the bigger role. Had some great seasons with the Isles, was picked for the '76 Canada Cup and even though he played on some woeful New Jersey teams he still maintained an above .500 record. I'm not campagning for him but I'm trowing his name out and seeing what happens.

Rick MacLeish - He had Hall of Fame written all over him early in his career. His point seasons go 100, 97, 79, 77, 74. Not that much different from Shanahan's. Was a top ten scorer twice, and in the Flyers two Cup wins he led them both times in points. Yes him, not Clarke, not Barber. he has 759 points in 846 games. Then he has 107 points in 114 playoff games. Scored the Cup winner in '74. Also think about how the Flyers did when he wasnt in the '76 playoffs. They got swept. Sure the habs would have likely won anyways but to me he was a huge part of those teams and that proves it. To me he was as important if not more to those Flyers teams than Barber, and to a certain extent Clarke. Its not that he NEEDS to be in there but I often wonder why his name is never thrown out.
Yes, no to the rest..

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09-21-2006, 07:21 PM
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Yes to Shanahan, no to the rest. Recchi is close.

Resch was hurt most by playing for Colorado/NJ in the early to mid-80s. He also won the Calder and had Smith not been on the Island he probably could have backstopped them to a couple of cups and had a different legacy.

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09-21-2006, 07:50 PM
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No to all, but Shanny and MacLeish are close. MacLeish was fantastic in the playoffs when the Flyers won the cup, I can almost see letting him in for those 2 years alone.

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09-21-2006, 08:43 PM
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Poor Chico Resch. A victim of bad timing. He was phenomenal from `75- `79; probably only behind Dryden and Parent. Unfortunately his peak was a little ealier than that of his teammates.

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09-22-2006, 11:56 AM
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Shanahan certainly. Recchi is close but I would vote for him. The other two no way.

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09-22-2006, 12:36 PM
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Anybody who is a key player on three Stanley Cup champions will automatically receive some support when their name comes up for HHOF discussion. When you look at how he played the game, you realize that Shanahan is a lock. Where to begin? He's two goals away from 600, and he has over 1,200 points. No longer cinches for admission, but remember: three Stanley Cups, two first-team all-star selections and a second-team selection, and prototype status as a power forward. He has both consistency (20-goal scorer every year since his rookie season, 12 30-goal seasons) and dominance (three-time all-star, six-time 40-goal scorer) in his favour. He was the "missing piece" that pushed Detroit over the top in their quest for Lord Stanley. And he became a standard for combining offence and physical play. He was on a lot of top-10 lists between 1993 and 2002. Might not be a first-ballot inductee, but he won't have to wait long to get in.

I think Mark Recchi will get in. I don't know if he belongs, but he's one of those guys you're going to appreciate more and more once his career is over. He was a key player for Pittsburgh in the 1991 Cup victory, and a big addition for Carolina in their victory this June. He's approaching 1,300 points, he's still over a point-per-game for his career, and he reached those levels while playing a solid, gritty game. Never let his below-average frame be a hinderance. Not physically intimidating, but he'll battle in the corners. He sees the ice very well, makes smart plays, and had a potent snapshot. An all-star in 1992. Three times over 100 points, a 97-point season in 1991-92, and third in league scoring in 1999-2000. (Although that was largely a forgettable season for the NHL). 1,300 points is no longer a cinch for HHOF induction, but with two rings, a solid two-way style, and a reputation for excellence, consistency and durability, Recchi will make it. He'll be like Neely - he'll need a few attempts - but he'll be there eventually.

I love Chico Resch. I think he's one of the great characters in the game, and people who have met him speak very highly of him. He's a hardcore pack rat. But this is the first time I've heard his name bandied about in HHOF discussion. That should tell you something right there. The good guy HOF? Yes. The character HOF? Yes. The HHOF? No.

This is also the first time I've heard MacLeish's name in HHOF discussions. Solid two-way player and penalty killer who had seasons of 100 and 97 points. Led the 74 playoffs in goals. Two-time Cup champion. Definitely didn't fit with the Broad Street Bullies. But he doesn't belong. He didn't have a long enough peak period, and in that peak period, all-star team selections are conspicuous by their absence. I think John Tonelli was better, and Tonelli's not on my potential HHOFer list, either.

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09-22-2006, 01:04 PM
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Shanahan is a lock. Has the career numbers - 600 goals, 1200 points. Has the dominant prime years - multiple All-star selections, multiple 50-goal seasons, one of the best all-around players in the game for a decade. Integral part of a multiple Cup winner. One of the top 5 power-forwards ever. There isn't a shadow of a doubt he'll get in.

Recchi is borderline. Similar to or perhaps slightly ahead of Roenick and Mogilny, behind Sundin and Modano. Has two Cup rings, and very nice career numbers. But is lacking in individual awards, and very lacking in 'star' quality ... was rarely considered an 'elite' player or even the best player on his team. A quiet producer with some of the quietest 'big' years ever. I suspect he'll probably get in eventually, but it'll probably take a good while.

Resch - no. Fine goalie, but behind Vachon and Moog (and maybe Liut) in terms of bypassed '70s/'80s goalies. A victim of circumstances in some respects, but you can't make the HHOF on what-ifs. Never won 30 games, only once (as a rookie) carried his team to a playoff series victory. Just not enough there.

MacLeish's resume is slightly inferior to Barber's, and Barber is a contentious selection. Again, good player but just didn't accomplish enough. Only 2 seasons where he was better than a point-per-game player.

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09-22-2006, 06:15 PM
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Shanahan is a lock. Has the career numbers - 600 goals, 1200 points. Has the dominant prime years - multiple All-star selections, multiple 50-goal seasons, one of the best all-around players in the game for a decade. Integral part of a multiple Cup winner. One of the top 5 power-forwards ever. There isn't a shadow of a doubt he'll get in.

Recchi is borderline. Similar to or perhaps slightly ahead of Roenick and Mogilny, behind Sundin and Modano. Has two Cup rings, and very nice career numbers. But is lacking in individual awards, and very lacking in 'star' quality ... was rarely considered an 'elite' player or even the best player on his team. A quiet producer with some of the quietest 'big' years ever. I suspect he'll probably get in eventually, but it'll probably take a good while.

Resch - no. Fine goalie, but behind Vachon and Moog (and maybe Liut) in terms of bypassed '70s/'80s goalies. A victim of circumstances in some respects, but you can't make the HHOF on what-ifs. Never won 30 games, only once (as a rookie) carried his team to a playoff series victory. Just not enough there.

MacLeish's resume is slightly inferior to Barber's, and Barber is a contentious selection. Again, good player but just didn't accomplish enough. Only 2 seasons where he was better than a point-per-game player.
I would say Recchi's well ahead of Roenick and Mogilny, and I'd say he's at least on par, if not ahead, of Modano and Sundin. He has the most points of those five. (That second ring in Carolina will go a long way to improving his chances). And it's not like he got those totals by floating; he worked hard, he battled in the corners, and he wasn't afraid to take a hit to make a play.

Roenick will be hurt by the fact he peaked at 24, and never did much afterwards. While he played that robust, physical game, there's no Cups and no seasons among the games elite after 1994. Mogilny had two seasons among the game's elite, and a whole lot of years where "inconsistency" and "apathy" were the operative words. Mogilny won a Cup, but his performance on New Jersey in 2000 was far from memorable.


I agree that Recchi doesn't have that "star power" quality. Never regarded as a top five player, although you could have made a case for him in the top 10 in 1994. But in terms of a continuous stretch of top 10, he does not have it. I think he will get in - the 1,300 points, consistency, combination of skill and grit, and two rings will be enough. But the absence of star quality will make him wait.

I'd also rate Vernon among the snubs from the 70s and 80s, along with Barasso. But none of the snubs compare with Lorne Chabot, who cracked THN's top 100 list released in 1998 but isn't in the HHOF.

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09-22-2006, 06:16 PM
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Shanahan is a lock. Has the career numbers - 600 goals, 1200 points. Has the dominant prime years - multiple All-star selections, multiple 50-goal seasons, one of the best all-around players in the game for a decade. Integral part of a multiple Cup winner. One of the top 5 power-forwards ever. There isn't a shadow of a doubt he'll get in.

Recchi is borderline. Similar to or perhaps slightly ahead of Roenick and Mogilny, behind Sundin and Modano. Has two Cup rings, and very nice career numbers. But is lacking in individual awards, and very lacking in 'star' quality ... was rarely considered an 'elite' player or even the best player on his team. A quiet producer with some of the quietest 'big' years ever. I suspect he'll probably get in eventually, but it'll probably take a good while.

Resch - no. Fine goalie, but behind Vachon and Moog (and maybe Liut) in terms of bypassed '70s/'80s goalies. A victim of circumstances in some respects, but you can't make the HHOF on what-ifs. Never won 30 games, only once (as a rookie) carried his team to a playoff series victory. Just not enough there.

MacLeish's resume is slightly inferior to Barber's, and Barber is a contentious selection. Again, good player but just didn't accomplish enough. Only 2 seasons where he was better than a point-per-game player.
I would say Recchi's well ahead of Roenick and Mogilny, and I'd say he's at least on par, if not ahead, of Modano and Sundin. He has the most points of those five. (That second ring in Carolina will go a long way to improving his chances). And it's not like he got those totals by floating; he worked hard, he battled in the corners, and he wasn't afraid to take a hit to make a play.

Roenick will be hurt by the fact he peaked at 24, and never did much afterwards. While he played that robust, physical game, there's no Cups and no seasons among the games elite after 1994. Mogilny had two seasons among the game's elite, and a whole lot of years where "inconsistency" and "apathy" were the operative words. Mogilny won a Cup, but his performance on New Jersey in 2000 was far from memorable.


I agree that Recchi doesn't have that "star power" quality. Never regarded as a top five player, although you could have made a case for him in the top 10 in 1994. But in terms of a continuous stretch of top 10, he does not have it. I think he will get in - the 1,300 points, consistency, combination of skill and grit, and two rings will be enough. But the absence of star quality will make him wait.

I'd also rate Vernon among the snubs from the 70s and 80s, along with Barasso. But none of the snubs compare with 30s star Lorne Chabot, who cracked THN's top 100 list released in 1998 but isn't in the HHOF.

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09-22-2006, 06:19 PM
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Shanahan is a lock. Has the career numbers - 600 goals, 1200 points. Has the dominant prime years - multiple All-star selections, multiple 50-goal seasons, one of the best all-around players in the game for a decade. Integral part of a multiple Cup winner. One of the top 5 power-forwards ever. There isn't a shadow of a doubt he'll get in.

Recchi is borderline. Similar to or perhaps slightly ahead of Roenick and Mogilny, behind Sundin and Modano. Has two Cup rings, and very nice career numbers. But is lacking in individual awards, and very lacking in 'star' quality ... was rarely considered an 'elite' player or even the best player on his team. A quiet producer with some of the quietest 'big' years ever. I suspect he'll probably get in eventually, but it'll probably take a good while.

Resch - no. Fine goalie, but behind Vachon and Moog (and maybe Liut) in terms of bypassed '70s/'80s goalies. A victim of circumstances in some respects, but you can't make the HHOF on what-ifs. Never won 30 games, only once (as a rookie) carried his team to a playoff series victory. Just not enough there.

MacLeish's resume is slightly inferior to Barber's, and Barber is a contentious selection. Again, good player but just didn't accomplish enough. Only 2 seasons where he was better than a point-per-game player.
I would say Recchi's well ahead of Roenick and Mogilny, and I'd say he's at least on par, if not ahead, of Modano and Sundin. He has the most points of those five. (That second ring in Carolina will go a long way to improving his chances). And it's not like he got those totals by floating; he worked hard, he battled in the corners, and he wasn't afraid to take a hit to make a play.

I agree that Recchi doesn't have that "star power" quality. Never regarded as a top five player, although you could have made a case for him in the top 10 in 1994. But in terms of a continuous stretch of top 10, he does not have it. I think he will get in - the 1,300 points, consistency, combination of skill and grit, and two rings will be enough. But the absence of star quality will make him wait.

I'd also rate Vernon among the snubs from the 70s and 80s, along with Barasso. But none of the snubs compare with 30s star Lorne Chabot, who cracked THN's top 100 list released in 1998 but isn't in the HHOF.

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09-22-2006, 10:37 PM
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Shanahan is a lock based on the numbers, but I would put him in just for the fact that he put together that "committee" that helped change the game from the mess it was pre-lockout. Recchi has somewhat quietly put up very good numbers. I wouldn't put him in, but wouldn't argue if he did get in. Chico's a great guy, but no. MacLeish is nowhere close. If he gets in for a 50 goal season, than maybe Zhamnov should go for having a 5 goal game once.

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09-22-2006, 11:10 PM
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Shanny is a lock

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09-23-2006, 04:22 AM
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I would say Recchi's well ahead of Roenick and Mogilny, and I'd say he's at least on par, if not ahead, of Modano and Sundin. He has the most points of those five. (That second ring in Carolina will go a long way to improving his chances). And it's not like he got those totals by floating; he worked hard, he battled in the corners, and he wasn't afraid to take a hit to make a play.

Roenick will be hurt by the fact he peaked at 24, and never did much afterwards. While he played that robust, physical game, there's no Cups and no seasons among the games elite after 1994. Mogilny had two seasons among the game's elite, and a whole lot of years where "inconsistency" and "apathy" were the operative words. Mogilny won a Cup, but his performance on New Jersey in 2000 was far from memorable.

I agree that Recchi doesn't have that "star power" quality. Never regarded as a top five player, although you could have made a case for him in the top 10 in 1994. But in terms of a continuous stretch of top 10, he does not have it. I think he will get in - the 1,300 points, consistency, combination of skill and grit, and two rings will be enough. But the absence of star quality will make him wait.

I'd also rate Vernon among the snubs from the 70s and 80s, along with Barasso. But none of the snubs compare with 30s star Lorne Chabot, who cracked THN's top 100 list released in 1998 but isn't in the HHOF.
I think Roenick and Recchi are closer than you allow. Very similar peaks/valleys in their careers. Both had 4 elite seasons from 1990-94, then fell off somewhat and neither finished top-10 in league scoring again aside from the 1999-00 season, when Recchi was 3rd and Roenick would've been top-5 as well save for injury. For the most part, since 1994 both guys have been 65-80 point guys - solid first-liners but not really elite players. If you want to attribute this 'huge drop-off' to Roenick, then you also have to acknowledge that Roenick's points-per-game from 1994-2003 (a 9-season stretch when he was 'past his prime') is pretty much identical to Recchi's during that same stretch.

The difference is that Recchi has two Cups, but Roenick was hardly a playoff slouch (and actually has slightly better career playoff stats). Career numbers aren't much different at all.

Modano and Sundin are a step up from Recchi. Franchise #1 centers. #1 overall picks who were stars from the moment they entered the league. No-one ever built a franchise around Mark Recchi the way teams did around Modano and Sundin. Modano is the best player in his franchise's history, and Sundin is the all-time leading scorer of an original-6 team. While the career numbers might look similar, there's a gap in terms of talent, impact, importance, and legacy. To me, it's like comparing Bernie Nicholls and Gilbert Perreault.


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09-26-2006, 11:13 AM
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shanny is in no question about it

recchi will get in, but not on the first few ballots

resch and macleish will not get in

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09-26-2006, 12:54 PM
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The arguments in this thread have convinced me on Shanahan. I had completely forgotten about his all-star selections, which will make a difference in defining his "peak". He was a real go-to guy at a young age with the Whalers/Devils, and maintained that role throughout his whole career.

Recchi, I personally wouldn't put in. Aside from his breakout year on that great line with Cullen and Stevens, he always seemed like really good complementary talent to me - along the lines of a Joe Mullen (although Mullen's in there, so I guess that puts Recchi in, too ). Because of the glut of talented 90s forwards mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I think he'll have to wait, perhaps long enough that he fades from consideration. I don't think he'll enjoy the groundswell of popular support Neely did to get him in "after the fact" - he's not as popular, IMO.


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09-26-2006, 01:13 PM
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But none of the snubs compare with 30s star Lorne Chabot, who cracked THN's top 100 list released in 1998 but isn't in the HHOF.
Chabot is certainly the biggest snub. I don't know why he hasn't gotten in after so many years. He's more deserving than Chuck Rayner and Roy Worters.

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09-26-2006, 02:10 PM
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Shanahan - Yes
Recchi - Yes, considering who's already there
Resch - No
MacLeish - No

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09-26-2006, 08:36 PM
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The only problem I have with Recchi is how much were his stats inflated by his era and respective linemates? Shanny seems like a no brainer to me, I didn't have to think about the question when Big Phil posed it, his impact went beyond stats in his prime.

Edit: I am actually surprised Shanahan was NOT an all star more than he was.

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09-26-2006, 09:12 PM
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The only problem I have with Recchi is how much were his stats inflated by his era and respective linemates? Shanny seems like a no brainer to me, I didn't have to think about the question when Big Phil posed it, his impact went beyond stats in his prime.

Edit: I am actually surprised Shanahan was NOT an all star more than he was.
When Recchi finished with 107 points in 1993-94, scoring was 6.5 goals per game, which was the lowest it had been since the 70s. That put him in the top 10. His third place finish in 1999-2000 left him only a few points away from winning the Art Ross.

He also scored at nearly a 100-point clip the following year, and was among the top scorers in the second half. At age 34, he finished in the top scorers in the league in 2003-04.

He has clearly shown he can produce no matter the circumstances. Scoring eclipsed seven goals per game twice in his career: his rookie year (1989-90) and his most productive year, 1992-93.

As for linemates, he played with Mario for the first three quarters in 1991-92, and he played with Lindros the first two-and-a-bit seasons of Lindros' career, as well as part of Lindros' very forgettable 1999-2000 season. Outside of that, his linemates have included guys like Turgeon, Damphousse, LeClair, Primeau - fine players, but hardly the types where you sit back and say "he was made by his linemates."

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