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By what measure was Savards #18 retired?

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Old
09-21-2006, 07:04 PM
  #1
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By what measure was Savards #18 retired?

Not necessarily saying it shouldnt have been (well, actually I am), but does he really belong with the Rocket, Lafleur?.....Beliveau...Doug Harvey?

My god, no!

He was a ponderous defenceman who had a frightful bit of injuries after a great start that may have robbed him of much more than 1 second all star team selection. But so what?

He was a member of the Big Three? Yes, the worst one. And the others havent had their numbers retired and it appears Lapointe will be overlooked.

In his prime, he was consistently behind Lapointe in the Norris votes and all star team votes. And if you watched, there was a good reason Lapointe was considered just behind Orr and Park and then Larry was up there with Potvin and Salming. Savard - great but not a superstar.

He was also booed heavily near the end of his habs stint.

As Bring Back Doniar-Bucky likes to point out there was a nasty bit with the cops recently too.

I smell politics. 1 English 1 French like last year? Maybe old friend Gainey pulling strings?

In any case..... a travesty that a sublime human like Dryden had to share the spotlight.

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09-21-2006, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by chooch View Post
Not necessarily saying it shouldnt have been (well, actually I am), but does he really belong with the Rocket, Lafleur?.....Beliveau...Doug Harvey?

My god, no!

He was a ponderous defenceman who had a frightful bit of injuries after a great start that may have robbed him of much more than 1 second all star team selection. But so what?

He was a member of the Big Three? Yes, the worst one. And the others havent had their numbers retired and it appears Lapointe will be overlooked.

In his prime, he was consistently behind Lapointe in the Norris votes and all star team votes. And if you watched, there was a good reason Lapointe was considered just behind Orr and Park and then Larry was up there with Potvin and Salming. Savard - great but not a superstar.

He was also booed heavily near the end of his habs stint.

As Bring Back Doniar-Bucky likes to point out there was a nasty bit with the cops recently too.

I smell politics. 1 English 1 French like last year? Maybe old friend Gainey pulling strings?

In any case..... a travesty that a sublime human like Dryden had to share the spotlight.
I agree. Savard was a second or third tier star, certainly not worthy of number retirement. Much along the lines of a Gretzky.

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09-21-2006, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
I agree. Savard was a second or third tier star, certainly not worthy of number retirement. Much along the lines of a Gretzky.
I bet the first time you saw Savard was in a Jets uni. Stick to yoru books and lists. (at least your not calling me racist)

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09-21-2006, 07:36 PM
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I smell politics. 1 English 1 French like last year? Maybe old friend Gainey pulling strings?
Are you serious?

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09-21-2006, 07:37 PM
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Are you serious?
Where'd you get that picture of Lui Passaglia?

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09-21-2006, 07:41 PM
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Where'd you get that picture of Lui Passaglia?
The avatar?

I'll PM you.

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09-21-2006, 07:57 PM
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Not necessarily saying it shouldnt have been (well, actually I am), but does he really belong with the Rocket, Lafleur?.....Beliveau...Doug Harvey?

My god, no!

He was a ponderous defenceman who had a frightful bit of injuries after a great start that may have robbed him of much more than 1 second all star team selection. But so what?

He was a member of the Big Three? Yes, the worst one. And the others havent had their numbers retired and it appears Lapointe will be overlooked.

In his prime, he was consistently behind Lapointe in the Norris votes and all star team votes. And if you watched, there was a good reason Lapointe was considered just behind Orr and Park and then Larry was up there with Potvin and Salming. Savard - great but not a superstar.

He was also booed heavily near the end of his habs stint.

As Bring Back Doniar-Bucky likes to point out there was a nasty bit with the cops recently too.

I smell politics. 1 English 1 French like last year? Maybe old friend Gainey pulling strings?

In any case..... a travesty that a sublime human like Dryden had to share the spotlight.
Sorry, cooch, but I haven't mentioned any such thing, so keep me out of your ramblings if you don't mind. And please don't send me any creepy private messages, I'm not interested in being more than friends.

Thanks in advance.

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09-22-2006, 12:52 PM
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I'm glad Savard's being honored. I wouldn't have circulated petitions if he wasn't, [I'm in too small a town anyways], but I think he was overlooked too easily on those 70's teams. During the lockout, watching a lot of classic games, you got reminded how good Savard was. We always get to see the end of the play with Robinson on the rush or delivering the big hit. Often, he was able to do this because of a smart play Savard had made. People were surprised at the time when he was on the 72 Team Canada, as he hadn't fully recovered from his leg problems. They weren't wondering when the series was over. When Yvon Lambert scored his famous goal in the too many men game overtime, few mention the 2 defensive gems Serge made to give them the opportunity.

Savard and Dryden didn't look at the honor as individuals when speaking on Wednesday, they both 'got it', the team concept allowed them to excel.

Why Savard and not Lapointe ? Honestly, I don't know. He didn't leave the team in a warm and friendly manner, but no one's left in management from that time, I don't know why Lapointe doesn't get remembered in the same manner.

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09-22-2006, 07:38 PM
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I'm glad Savard's being honored. I wouldn't have circulated petitions if he wasn't, [I'm in too small a town anyways], but I think he was overlooked too easily on those 70's teams. During the lockout, watching a lot of classic games, you got reminded how good Savard was. We always get to see the end of the play with Robinson on the rush or delivering the big hit. Often, he was able to do this because of a smart play Savard had made. People were surprised at the time when he was on the 72 Team Canada, as he hadn't fully recovered from his leg problems. They weren't wondering when the series was over. When Yvon Lambert scored his famous goal in the too many men game overtime, few mention the 2 defensive gems Serge made to give them the opportunity.

Savard and Dryden didn't look at the honor as individuals when speaking on Wednesday, they both 'got it', the team concept allowed them to excel.

Why Savard and not Lapointe ? Honestly, I don't know. He didn't leave the team in a warm and friendly manner, but no one's left in management from that time, I don't know why Lapointe doesn't get remembered in the same manner.
HoFer certainly but number retired? Not a sniff of a Norris in fact always behind Lapointe and Robinson in votes???

I never watch Thrasher games out of principle anyway - will skip that one too.

Gainey's been retired for 17 years. Larry left around then too. They were superstars.
I guarantee Roy will go in at the same time as one of those.

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09-22-2006, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
I'm glad Savard's being honored. I wouldn't have circulated petitions if he wasn't, [I'm in too small a town anyways], but I think he was overlooked too easily on those 70's teams. During the lockout, watching a lot of classic games, you got reminded how good Savard was. We always get to see the end of the play with Robinson on the rush or delivering the big hit. Often, he was able to do this because of a smart play Savard had made. People were surprised at the time when he was on the 72 Team Canada, as he hadn't fully recovered from his leg problems. They weren't wondering when the series was over. When Yvon Lambert scored his famous goal in the too many men game overtime, few mention the 2 defensive gems Serge made to give them the opportunity.

Savard and Dryden didn't look at the honor as individuals when speaking on Wednesday, they both 'got it', the team concept allowed them to excel.

Why Savard and not Lapointe ? Honestly, I don't know. He didn't leave the team in a warm and friendly manner, but no one's left in management from that time, I don't know why Lapointe doesn't get remembered in the same manner.
HoFer certainly but number retired? Not a sniff of a Norris in fact always behind Lapointe and Robinson in votes??? Never first team allstar?

I never watch Thrasher games out of principle anyway - will skip that one too.

Gainey's been retired for 17 years. Larry left around then too. They were superstars.
I guarantee Roy will go in at the same time as one of those.

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09-22-2006, 07:40 PM
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The fact that Savard had been part of the organization after he retired likely played a part in the decision to give him the honour.

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09-23-2006, 01:55 PM
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HoFer certainly but number retired? Not a sniff of a Norris in fact always behind Lapointe and Robinson in votes??? Never first team allstar?

I never watch Thrasher games out of principle anyway - will skip that one too.

Gainey's been retired for 17 years. Larry left around then too. They were superstars.
I guarantee Roy will go in at the same time as one of those.
Thanks for the insight

Thanks for the insight

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09-23-2006, 02:03 PM
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I never watch Thrasher games out of principle anyway - will skip that one too.

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09-23-2006, 02:10 PM
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For probably the first time ever, I agree with chooch.

How on earth can they retire Savard's number before Robinson's? Their careers and contributions to that franchise weren't even close.

Completely reeks of political correctness and not wanting to retire two Anglophone players at once.

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09-23-2006, 02:19 PM
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For probably the first time ever, I agree with chooch.

How on earth can they retire Savard's number before Robinson's? Their careers and contributions to that franchise weren't even close.

Completely reeks of political correctness and not wanting to retire two Anglophone players at once.
If Montreal really did that for that reason, then that's a PURE BUSH LEAGUE MOVE. I'd lose a lot of respect for them if that was the case.

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09-23-2006, 02:41 PM
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I think Serge decided to go out and celebrate after the press conference. He was caught and charged with a DUI later that evening. I dont think the charge will bring him some good press on the honoring scale.

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09-23-2006, 03:40 PM
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I think Serge decided to go out and celebrate after the press conference. He was caught and charged with a DUI later that evening. I dont think the charge will bring him some good press on the honoring scale.
except he was convicted after, the incident actually came in 2004.

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09-25-2006, 06:21 AM
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I've always thought Savard was a very underrated defenseman of all time. I rememberthe play he made in '79 when Rick Middleton tried to deke past him. After he broke that up he dished it off to Tremblay who eventually dished it off to Lambert for the OT winner. Also Savard never played in a game that the '72 Canada team lost. There's a reason for that. Paul Henderson aid even in his book that he felt better when Savard was back there. He played, according to Scotty Bowman, basically errorless defense.

People remember the 70s but remember that he won 8 Cups in total,and was the Conn Smythe winner in '69. That is often forgotten. I'd never kick Serge Savard off my team

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09-25-2006, 07:16 AM
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For probably the first time ever, I agree with chooch.

How on earth can they retire Savard's number before Robinson's? Their careers and contributions to that franchise weren't even close.

Completely reeks of political correctness and not wanting to retire two Anglophone players at once.
The organization has been quite clear with their intentions. They have decided on the sweaters that will be retired and the ceremonies will take place in order of when the players began their careers.

Like usual, there's no conspiracy unless you want there to be one.

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09-25-2006, 07:24 AM
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I've always thought Savard was a very underrated defenseman of all time. I rememberthe play he made in '79 when Rick Middleton tried to deke past him. After he broke that up he dished it off to Tremblay who eventually dished it off to Lambert for the OT winner. Also Savard never played in a game that the '72 Canada team lost. There's a reason for that. Paul Henderson aid even in his book that he felt better when Savard was back there. He played, according to Scotty Bowman, basically errorless defense.

People remember the 70s but remember that he won 8 Cups in total,and was the Conn Smythe winner in '69. That is often forgotten. I'd never kick Serge Savard off my team
The arguement isn't necessarily wrong, but the precedent has been set. If you really want to save the honor for players who were just in a class apart from the rest, you'd have Morenz,Beliveau,Richard,Lafleur,Harvey, and then probably Robinson. I won't get into the great Mtl goalie debate. When they decided to honor great players like Moore and Cournoyer, they,imo, made a decison as an organization to make the honor a broader one. OK, if that's the way the team is going, yes Savard and Gainey will go up there. #19 will be next year.

How they determine players, why not Lapointe, is another matter.

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09-25-2006, 06:57 PM
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The arguement isn't necessarily wrong, but the precedent has been set. If you really want to save the honor for players who were just in a class apart from the rest, you'd have Morenz,Beliveau,Richard,Lafleur,Harvey, and then probably Robinson. I won't get into the great Mtl goalie debate. When they decided to honor great players like Moore and Cournoyer, they,imo, made a decison as an organization to make the honor a broader one. OK, if that's the way the team is going, yes Savard and Gainey will go up there. #19 will be next year.

How they determine players, why not Lapointe, is another matter.
Durnan and Hainsworth haven't had their #1's honoured either. They were certainly in the same league as Dryden.

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09-25-2006, 07:28 PM
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Durnan and Hainsworth haven't had their #1's honoured either. They were certainly in the same league as Dryden.
Aurel Joliat was a big star and deserved recognition in 1985 when he came out for the all time team game in his peak cap and put on an exhibition tripping, scoring on Plante at the age of 84.

He outscored Morenz even some years and was 1, 2 or 3 in team scoring his entire long career.

He deserves to share #4 like Lapointe certainly does #5.

btw - was that his brother Bobby?

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09-27-2006, 11:01 PM
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Joliat already semi-officially share 4 as well as Lach shares 16 with Richard. They don't have banners but they've been honored back in the days.

And for Savard being retired before Robinson, it is only because he's older. Anyway it is no secret that Gainey, Robinson and Roy will be retired in 2008 and 2009.

The worth of a player and what he means to an organization often goes beyond points and all-star teams (see Ken Daneyko).

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11-17-2006, 07:44 PM
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Tomorrow night will be fun to see Savard's 18 retired but they need to acknowledge Lapointe who was superior as a player. You shoudlnt have your number retired on the basis you build hotels in Cuba or were a GM.

Whats next Lemaires 25??? Eff that!

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11-18-2006, 09:32 AM
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Not necessarily saying it shouldnt have been (well, actually I am), but does he really belong with the Rocket, Lafleur?.....Beliveau...Doug Harvey?

Does anyone really belong alongside those men? Pretty noble aspirations, I'll admit, but yeah, he deserves to have his sweater hoisted.

He was a ponderous defenceman who had a frightful bit of injuries after a great start that may have robbed him of much more than 1 second all star team selection. But so what?

When dealing with any sports legend, oversoming serious injuries is usually part of the myth. Savard did that and performed among the best in the game after coming back. Poderous? I dunno, if you're referring to a supposed lack of speed, it was the same criticism that came Harvey's way. Do not remember any other defenceman having a phrase coined about any of their manuevers, be it by Danny Gallivan or any other commentator. He did ponder, however and was one of the smartest guys on the ice in most games, also like Doug Harvey. In terms of losing out on All-Star mentions, I think it was more a matter of offencemen attracting the attention of fans and voters, as has been historical practice.

He was a member of the Big Three? Yes, the worst one. And the others havent had their numbers retired and it appears Lapointe will be overlooked.

They were known as The Big Three for a reason. If Savard didn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Robinson and Lapointe, they would have been referred to as The Big Two, Dominating Duo or some other moniker would have been stuck to them. That Robinson and Lapointe were able to put up such impressive offensive numbers was largely a function of them knowing that they could join the attack since Savard covered a lot of ground behind them, should things go awry. Doesn't seem fair to blame Savard for any lack or delay of honours to Lapointe.

In his prime, he was consistently behind Lapointe in the Norris votes and all star team votes. And if you watched, there was a good reason Lapointe was considered just behind Orr and Park and then Larry was up there with Potvin and Salming. Savard - great but not a superstar.

A restatement, on a wider scale, of the criticism you had about Savard being as significant as #19 or the #5 that hasn't yet been recognized. Once again you list an impressive array of offencemen, each and every one of them effective in their own end but more renowned for their eploits at the other end of the ice. There are still a few folks around who can appreciate the role of the guys who is there to stop opponents rather than score on them. Takes you away from your initial topic of discussion, which dealt with the Habs, not the NHL. Can not foresee any movement within the Montreal organization to retire sweaters from other teams.

He was also booed heavily near the end of his habs stint.

Which, if I'm not mistaken, puts him right up there alongside Morenz, Richard, Harvey, Beliveau, Geoffrion, Lafleur and many many more. By this reasoning, there shouldn't be any individual banners hanging from the rafters.

As Bring Back Doniar-Bucky likes to point out there was a nasty bit with the cops recently too.

It seems that the person to whom this opinion is attributed and their supposed frequent propagation of it is not accurate, the person credited with it denying the veracity in no uncertain terms.

I smell politics. 1 English 1 French like last year? Maybe old friend Gainey pulling strings?

Everything is political in Quebec. That being said I find it interesting that you would suggest that Mr. Gainey,who has never sought political office and is regarded as one of the game's most solid citizens, would lower himself to the point of favoring one ex-teammate over another, actually lobbying on his behalf.

In any case..... a travesty that a sublime human like Dryden had to share the spotlight

Never having met Mr. Dryden I can not comment from personal experience as to his character but I do seem to remember a young goaltender who walked out on a signed, valid contract when the team wouldn't grant his wish and renegotiate his salary upwards. His name ecapes me at the moment but I have always felt that the honourable thing to do, particularly for someone with a law degree in his hand, would have been to suck it up, play out the contract and then ask for more money the next time around.

I'm pretty sure there are a number of folks around the Leafs organization who do not share your glowing assessment of Mr. Dryden's moral worth.

Probably too ponderous a post to be entertaining but I felt that at least once, your merited the courtesy of a somewhat coherent reply.

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