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What if Thornton had not been traded?

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Old
09-24-2006, 11:10 PM
  #51
GloryDaze4877
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Here's a brief synopsis:

Joe drafted...next savior of the franchise

Joe led teams underperform in playoffs

Joe signs big money extension

MOC and Co let Knuble, Rolston, and Nylander walk...replace with Isbister and Zhamnov

Going gets tough...Joe goes shopping

Joe traded for 3 "good" players

Berg and Boyes blossom on #1 line w/Sturm

Joe wins scoring title with SJ (minus the pressure of being captain, and with another #1 center to shoulder the weight)

Joe gets majority of credit for Sharks turnaround

Joe's Sharks tank vs EDM

MOC gone, Sinden retires, PC, Gorton, and CJ running the show now.

Kessel drafted...Chara and Savard signed.

Fans still wonder what if?

Any questions?

Seriously, there were unrealistic expectations of Joe from the start. On the other hand he is just not cut out to be a leader, and both he and the B's are better off now that he has moved on.

Let's just leave it at that, for now.

In a couple of years let's see where the B's are and we can revisit it then...

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09-24-2006, 11:55 PM
  #52
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09-25-2006, 12:00 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GloryDaze4877 View Post
Here's a brief synopsis:
Seriously, there were unrealistic expectations of Joe from the start. On the other hand he is just not cut out to be a leader, and both he and the B's are better off now that he has moved on.

Let's just leave it at that, for now.

In a couple of years let's see where the B's are and we can revisit it then
...
No offense GD, but you're talking to the type of hockey fans who are well aware of the story, and the story behind the story. Why is it that outside of this forum, that this is the number one topic of discussion, yet on this forum -- it's taboo?

As stated, I'm all for moving on, and I'm all for the new face of the Boston Bruins.
To me these two things are not mutually exclusive.
I feel the best I've felt in years in regard to this hockey club.
What I'm not for, nor ever will be for, is those who tell me it's not a story, when I know full well it still is.

We don't need to treat this like a death. Our favorite son didn't leave the house, and we don't need to disown him. It simply *for whatever reason* didn't work out for Joe Thornton here.

It didn't work out for a lot of things and people in Boston for years either. Poisoned waters grow poisoned apples.

Why does the analysing go on? Because the smart ones learn from their mistakes.
They learn their lessons in history and move on. Not by bottling it up and disowning the protigal son, who continues to play and live and breathe. Einstein said himself that the important thing is to never stop questioning.
Falling off your horse, never meant the battle was over.

He's an MVP for crying out loud. It will forever be associated with this teams past mismanagement everytime he chaulks up another trophy for his trophy room.

It's funny how quickly we all were in claiming victory in the Cam Neely trade, and then again with the Glen Wesley scenario; yet we have to wait a couple years to revisit this one?

Why?

Not me. The story develops by the day, and it will probably unfold just as I feared it would.

I understand where some folks are at on this. It was once said, that it is better to will the good than it is to know the truth.

It's just that I think that's half baked...personally.

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09-25-2006, 12:35 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Don Cherry View Post
I think it turns into a circus every time because there are basically two groups who post on the subject.

There's those who desparately *want* to believe that it was a good trade (snicker) so they grasp at straws to try to prove it. Some of their reasons why it was a "good trade" (snicker) are truly amazing.

Then there are those of us who admit that it was one of the dumbest trades in league history and that we traded one of our all-time greatest players for a bunch of so-so players that are also soon-to-be free agents.

I think it's time for both groups to move on. We have Chara now and a new era is about to begin.
That's freakin' hilarious!! I can't wait for the night they raise #19 to the garden rafters (sniff sniff) Oh the emotions! Someone please hand me a tissue!!

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Old
09-25-2006, 12:53 AM
  #55
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this thread is very excit..zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Next!

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09-25-2006, 04:56 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B. View Post
This is from a comment MB made in another thread...

Let's assume that the Bruins would have stunk and drafted Kessel even if Thornton had stayed. Two of the three players the Bruins (Stuart and Sturm) picked up played huge roles for the team after the deal, and some of the void left by Joe's departure was filled by Bergeron and Boyes. So, assume Kessel is here either way, along with Murray, Bergeron, Boyes, Axelsson. Assume also that the Bruins signed Bergeron for two years instead of five, at a much lower cap hit. So, the 2006-07 cost of Stuart, Sturm, Primeau, and Bergeron would be almost exactly the same as the cost of Thornton, Bergeron (signed to a shorter, cheaper deal), and 2 minimum salary guys at forward and defense. (Signing Bergeron to the smaller deal would amount to short term gain in exchange for longer term pain, so I count his deal as sort of a fringe benefit to making the trade.)

Look at the forwards first. I'll list the 2006-07 team without Thornton, and then use parentheses to list the guys who'd be here instead, had there been no Thornton trade:

Marc Savard (Joe Thornton)
Glen Murray
Phil Kessel
Patrice Bergeron
Brad Boyes
Marco Sturm (????)
PJ Axelsson
Shean Donovan
Wayne Primeau (????)
Petr Kalus
Mark Mowers
Yan Stastny
Wade Brookbank

Had the deal not been made, the Bruins still could have signed Donovan, Mowers, and Brookbank. Stastny's here becasue I assumed that the Samsonov trade still happened. I also put Petr Kalus on the team, although he could go back to junior with his spot taken by a Hoggan or a Tenkrat. Let's hope not...

On defense:

Zdeno Chara
Brad Stuart (????)
Paul Mara
Andrew Alberts
Milan Jurcina
Jason York
Nathan Dempsey
Mark Stuart*

Even with Thornton on board, the money would still have been there for signing the big guy (although he would have had no shot at the C). So, assume he's locked in for the same amount. The Nick Boynton/Paul Mara trade is basically a wash in terms of money, so figure that it would have happened either way.

As far as money goes... if Thornton had stayed, the Marc Savard signing would never have happened. Since Savard's cap number is $5 million, that is the amount of money the Bruins would have had to replace the three Thornton-trade guys in the lineup. A #2 defenseman, a top 6 forward who played like a first line guy after we got him, and a plugger. Getting by without Primeau would not have been too difficult, but $5 million would not go far in replacing Stuart and Sturm. The Bruins could have brought in a top FA replacement for one of the two, and relied on a cheap veteran or kid to fill the other slot.

In the longer term, they would be facing difficult renegotiations with Thornton, Bergeron, and Boyes instead of Stuart, Sturm, and Boyes.

Would they be better off in 2006-07 having never made the deal? What about the long term?
Hey man, kudos for having the kahunas to post what's on your mind. Screw those people who's feathers get ruffled. Let`em weep.

Just to be clear, the post from the game thread wasn't about lamenting the loss of Thornton, but instead it was aimed at O'Connell's ill-conceived plan. I've railed on him before for the exact same reason - trading a marquee talent for prime players that will soon to be UFAs, all for a team that is deeply and fundamentally flawed.

The point is, if you build a team for today's NHL that has no transition, no speed and a laughable defense, then the Thornton for Stuart, Sturm & Primeau trade not only isn't going to solve your problems enough for your team to succeed, it will be short lived. Not unless you can re-sign any of these guys past their 1.5 year terms.

I would have much rather MOC went after a package of Bernier, Stuart, Primeau and/or a first round pick ... but to be honest, that probably wasn't possible given that he was out to save the season, not to mention his hide. Jeremy Jacobs and the fans all had high hopes for the B's last season, which kept MO under the gun to produce. Besides, JJ's teams never raise the white flag until the end is already here, so trading away the team's centerpiece wasn't going to fly if wasn't going to have an immediate impact.

Yet, the irony I was trying to point out in my post was that since O'Connell and much of his players that have been flushed out and replaced with a more competent GM with a better vision for success, these three incomers are now poised to have more of an impact on the team's success. In other words, with a better team and better plan, you get a better impact from Stuart, Sturm and Primeau.

But for that to have happened, you needed a new GM and a whole new approach.

Looking ahead, how Chiarelli handles the pending free agency of these guys is another issue. The hope is they return in order for the B's to both retain their talent and to show a better return for trading away last season's MVP. But the real key here is Chiarelli's ability to build a winner and to best spend the budget he has to achieve this goal.

With that in mind, before PC looks to sign these guys all things have to be considered - including their desire to return, the cost of retaining them, the impact of their loss, the potential free agency talent pool, the emergence of guys like Kessel and perhaps Kalus, and the likelihood for talented guys like Lashoff and Sigalet to make the NHL. All will have bearing on the situation.

Whatever the case, I agree with you that the Thornton deal allowed the B's financial freedom to remake their team. The thing is, had O'Connell still be the man in charge, I fear that at the end of the day, this team would still be fundamentally flawed. Trade or no trade, the real answer was to bring in a new mastermind who could lay the foundation for a much better vision of success.

If Thornton had to be sacrificed along the way in order to implement that vision, then so be it. I'd rather have a Thornton-less team that's built to seriously challenge for the cup than one that continuously flops in the first round of the playoffs.

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09-25-2006, 05:01 AM
  #57
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That's freakin' hilarious!! I can't wait for the night they raise #19 to the garden rafters (sniff sniff) Oh the emotions! Someone please hand me a tissue!!
Maybe they can raise Sturm, Stuart and Primeaus numbers the same night.

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09-25-2006, 05:35 AM
  #58
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Maybe they can raise Sturm, Stuart and Primeaus numbers the same night.
Who said anything about them being all-time greats?

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Old
09-25-2006, 06:30 AM
  #59
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Joe Thornton is a weakminded, one dimesional, perimiter player, who will never lead his team anywhere. He is a playoff underachiever who melts away at the slightest hint of pressure. He can pass the puck with the best......But does'nt add much else. The best day this franchise ever had was dumping him......Now one thing....When the Thornton fans start posting me back......Please list his accomplishments for me if you want to disagree.....Give me his playoff stats....His playoff record and please list for me anything significant he did for the Bruins.....Besides of course holding out for BIG MONEY without ever doing jack to deserve it.....
The guy is all smoke and mirrors and SJ will find that out after a few years....GUARANTEED. It amazes me why posters here even miss him. Why would anyone post a WHAT IF post about arguably the biggest bust in franchise history.....Barry Bonds hits homeruns......But how many rings does he have ?. Joe is a non controversial Barry Bonds.....Lives inside his own little box and tells himself how great he is.....

He got so much credit last season for the Shark run.....Yet disappeared when it counted....AGAIN....Yet nothing. No responsibility, he did not step up in the press and say...Its on me.....I score only 9 points in thirteen games and I should have been better....NO...None of that...He moused his way out of the locker room and showed up for his undeserved Hart trophy (JAGR got Robbed).......I say good riddance and I hope he enjoys watching us win a cup without him.

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09-25-2006, 08:37 AM
  #60
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Old
09-25-2006, 10:28 AM
  #61
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bergeron and Boyes would have less ice-time if Joe have stayed, so less money for them now.

stuart was practicing in SJ with sharks players just before the veteran camp began, and live in SJ most of the time hes not with boston.

There is a serious possibility that he might return to SJ as an ufa next summer
Who they skate with in the summer means nothing. Murray still skates with current and ex-Kings in the off season. Does that mean he's pining for a return to the Kings? No, it just means that's where his off-season house is.

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09-25-2006, 10:30 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by SEEKACUP View Post
Joe Thornton is a weakminded, one dimesional, perimiter player, who will never lead his team anywhere. He is a playoff underachiever who melts away at the slightest hint of pressure. He can pass the puck with the best......But does'nt add much else. The best day this franchise ever had was dumping him......Now one thing....When the Thornton fans start posting me back......Please list his accomplishments for me if you want to disagree.....Give me his playoff stats....His playoff record and please list for me anything significant he did for the Bruins.....Besides of course holding out for BIG MONEY without ever doing jack to deserve it.....
The guy is all smoke and mirrors and SJ will find that out after a few years....GUARANTEED. It amazes me why posters here even miss him. Why would anyone post a WHAT IF post about arguably the biggest bust in franchise history.....Barry Bonds hits homeruns......But how many rings does he have ?. Joe is a non controversial Barry Bonds.....Lives inside his own little box and tells himself how great he is.....

He got so much credit last season for the Shark run.....Yet disappeared when it counted....AGAIN....Yet nothing. No responsibility, he did not step up in the press and say...Its on me.....I score only 9 points in thirteen games and I should have been better....NO...None of that...He moused his way out of the locker room and showed up for his undeserved Hart trophy (JAGR got Robbed).......I say good riddance and I hope he enjoys watching us win a cup without him.

KPD, is that you?

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09-25-2006, 10:30 AM
  #63
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I feel another NESN documentry comming along....

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Old
09-25-2006, 11:11 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by chippa13 View Post
KPD, is that you?
Why, does KPD have an equally brilliant take on Thorntonbust.......C'mon, Like I said....Give me the positives on Joes 8 years here as a Bruin....List those accomplishments for me and I will comment on what I think. Let me know why it is he is so revered.....I just hope I can get a ticket for the banner raising of No.19...The biggest waste of talent the organization has ever known....

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09-25-2006, 11:11 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by MeisterBruinmaker View Post
If Thornton had to be sacrificed along the way in order to implement that vision, then so be it. I'd rather have a Thornton-less team that's built to seriously challenge for the cup than one that continuously flops in the first round of the playoffs.
By far, the best quote perhaps since the trade to crystalize exactly the way I feel.

I completely agree 100 percent.

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09-25-2006, 11:21 AM
  #66
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What if your dog crapped gold and your wife was smoking hot, never aged, and was randy all the time....

I wanna play the what if game too.

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09-25-2006, 11:24 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by SEEKACUP View Post
Why, does KPD have an equally brilliant take on Thorntonbust.......C'mon, Like I said....Give me the positives on Joes 8 years here as a Bruin....List those accomplishments for me and I will comment on what I think. Let me know why it is he is so revered.....I just hope I can get a ticket for the banner raising of No.19...The biggest waste of talent the organization has ever known....
The guy is gone. Why continue to carp on him. I believe they had the number 1 seed in the East while Joe was here. Another time they were 2nd or 3rd. He was the first B in ages to hit the 100/100 club.

If you looking for the biggest waste of talent in the organization, look no further than Rosy Ruzicka.

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09-25-2006, 11:25 AM
  #68
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He moused his way out of the locker room and showed up for his undeserved Hart trophy (JAGR got Robbed).......I say good riddance and I hope he enjoys watching us win a cup without him.
The only person who was robbed for the hart was Mikka Kiprusoff.

But thats a different thread on a different day

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09-25-2006, 11:26 AM
  #69
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The guy is gone. Why continue to carp on him. I believe they had the number 1 seed in the East while Joe was here. Another time they were 2nd or 3rd. He was the first B in ages to hit the 100/100 club.

If you looking for the biggest waste of talent in the organization, look no further than Rosy Ruzicka.
Why pick on Rosie? If anyone was biggest waste of talent in the organization it had to be Samsonov..

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09-25-2006, 11:30 AM
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Rosie wins hands down. The greatest player on the international stage in his day but had no desire to be an NHLer. A shame but a waste.

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09-25-2006, 11:42 AM
  #71
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No offense GD, but you're talking to the type of hockey fans who are well aware of the story, and the story behind the story. Why is it that outside of this forum, that this is the number one topic of discussion, yet on this forum -- it's taboo?

As stated, I'm all for moving on, and I'm all for the new face of the Boston Bruins.
To me these two things are not mutually exclusive.
I feel the best I've felt in years in regard to this hockey club.
What I'm not for, nor ever will be for, is those who tell me it's not a story, when I know full well it still is.

We don't need to treat this like a death. Our favorite son didn't leave the house, and we don't need to disown him. It simply *for whatever reason* didn't work out for Joe Thornton here.

It didn't work out for a lot of things and people in Boston for years either. Poisoned waters grow poisoned apples.

Why does the analysing go on? Because the smart ones learn from their mistakes.
They learn their lessons in history and move on. Not by bottling it up and disowning the protigal son, who continues to play and live and breathe. Einstein said himself that the important thing is to never stop questioning.
Falling off your horse, never meant the battle was over.

He's an MVP for crying out loud. It will forever be associated with this teams past mismanagement everytime he chaulks up another trophy for his trophy room.

It's funny how quickly we all were in claiming victory in the Cam Neely trade, and then again with the Glen Wesley scenario; yet we have to wait a couple years to revisit this one?

Why?

Not me. The story develops by the day, and it will probably unfold just as I feared it would.

I understand where some folks are at on this. It was once said, that it is better to will the good than it is to know the truth.

It's just that I think that's half baked...personally.
#1 Topic of discussion outside this board? In what alternate universe? If everyone is is so "aware" of everything that went on, than why are we so intent on discussing it?

This topic has not only been beaten to death...it's been run over by a truck...set on fire...AND thrown off a cliff.

I cannot speak for others, but the reason I do not want to discuss it has NOTHING to do with giving the B's owner and former mgmt a pass...it's because it is
B-O-R-I-N-G!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

There are very few people who would say that Thornton is not a very good player bordering on great (do it for a couple of years) but the fact remains that he is gone and given the current state of the team, I do not think that is necessarily a bad thing.

The Sox did not win a World Series until after Nomar was traded...that does not make him a bad player, but that trade changed the identity of the Sox, as did the Thornton trade for the B's.

It's done.


ps I do not think that there were too many people declaring the Pederson trade a "victory" right away? I have been a diehard hockey fan and fan of the B's since the early 70's and I had no fu**ing clue who Cam Neely was at the time of the trade. I think most chocked it up as a veteran salary dump until Neely really developed a couple of years later?

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09-25-2006, 11:42 AM
  #72
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Rosie wins hands down. The greatest player on the international stage in his day but had no desire to be an NHLer. A shame but a waste.
The rosie one lead the b's one year didnt he? 40 goals? something strange like that - Then started dropping duds for the b's. Inconsistant..

What about Dopita? Didnt we have him lined up too at one point?

I know the Flyers ended up with him..

Im too lazy to care about the rosie one or look up his stats..

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09-25-2006, 11:45 AM
  #73
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What if your dog crapped gold and your wife was smoking hot, never aged, and was randy all the time....

I wanna play the what if game too.
you want randy to be your wife?



i love thornton threads

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09-25-2006, 11:56 AM
  #74
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you want randy to be your wife?



i love thornton threads
Must have missed those Austin Powers flicks, randy is slang for horny.

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09-25-2006, 12:05 PM
  #75
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Must have missed those Austin Powers flicks, randy is slang for horny.
The name matches my personality.

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