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Old
09-26-2006, 02:36 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
For me I just don't know what the "break out" really is for Hossa.

Assuming he reasonably puts the pieces together, he's a 25 goal, 50 point player. A nice player but one I expect to still be streaky, not overly involved physically or defensivly special. Probably a pretty average second liner.

Just seems like a lot of work and effort and time for a guy whose payoff just doesn't wow me if it even gets to that point.
Breakout to me when referring to Hossa is being able to hit the back of the net way more often then a goal every 15 games. Pretty much just not being inconsistent with his play.

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09-26-2006, 02:37 PM
  #27
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I have to believe that the first half of the season is his last chance to step his game up a notch. I like that Renney's giving him yet another chance. He has shown a great deal of improvement in the preseason. We don't wanna just Fishstick him off to another team and see him come out of his shell on another team. It's not like we can't (or won't) be calling up Dawes, Immonen and/or Dubinsky every once in a while this season.

Entirely meaningless: Marcel is incredible in NHL07.

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09-26-2006, 02:47 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
Breakout to me when referring to Hossa is being able to hit the back of the net way more often then a goal every 15 games. Pretty much just not being inconsistent with his play.
And that's what concerns me, I think he'll find more consistency but I don't think ever be a really consistent player.

I think it could possibly get to the level of 25 goals, but to me he'll always be streaky and the finished product than will be good but not really great.

I think the odds of Hossa becoming more than simply "good" are pretty slim. Just seems like a weird investment and somewhat against how they're trying to mold the rest of the team.

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09-26-2006, 02:58 PM
  #29
Larry Melnyk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I think the odds of Hossa becoming more than simply "good" are pretty slim. Just seems like a weird investment and somewhat against how they're trying to mold the rest of the team.
Agree with the first part but not the 2nd....First off, I was as anti-Hossa as they come and got bombarded because of it...And he sucked for most of last year...But during the last 10 games or so he was one ofthe best and hardest working forwards we had---and fits well into what they are trying to do with the team...But his spot, IF he continues this hard work and effort, is as a role player and 3rd/4th liner, just like alot of other players we have...Like them, I have no problem with him throwing his hat in the ring and earning a spot, but it's a spot I hope we will soon fill with a youngster when they are ready....And thus would have no problem with including Hossa in a deal (or waive him) to bring in some help or open up a spot..

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09-26-2006, 03:04 PM
  #30
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Even that represents a pretty lofty expectation, Edge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Assuming he reasonably puts the pieces together, he's a 25 goal, 50 point player. A nice player but one I expect to still be streaky, not overly involved physically or defensivly special. Probably a pretty average second liner.
Considering that he has not even come close to scoring 15 goals, let alone 25. I would do a backflip if he was an average second liner. But, aside from a hot flash or two that typically lasts no more than 5 games, for him to even get to that point, he would need to improve dramatically. So much so, that it is easier to see Jason Ward becoming that kind of player faster than Hossa.

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09-26-2006, 03:22 PM
  #31
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I'm not the biggest fan of Hossa, but honestly I didnt want to see him gone. He busted his butt in the preseason games he has played, his only problem is his finish, or lack there of. His problem, atleast I think, is the fact that he can be skating well, taking the body and blocking shots in one game but when the puck doesnt go in for him he gets down on himself. It seems like he lacks confidence when he isnt scoring. I dont know what it is, god knows the coaching staff has given him chances. Maybe its trying to live up to the Hossa name set by his brother, I dont know. But what i'm fairly certain of is he has the ability, just lacks the finish and thats the most fustrating part. I do think he deserves to be on this team, and I do belive he will make alot of us stand up and take notice. Atleast I hope so.

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09-26-2006, 03:31 PM
  #32
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It's funny, Larry...

because in his last 21 games, he scored 2 goals, and assisted on zero while going -14. He did have 26 shots on goal (6 in one game), and went shotless in about 1/2 those games. I agree the effort was there. I agree that he mostly played well. It's just difficult to determine what the end point if for Hossa. Can a guy like Hollweg be just as successful on a fourth line as Hossa, and does he actually bring more to the table (as a fourth liner)? He's an enigma. Having said that, having him as part of your 23 players isn't a bad thing. He can come off the bench and play. At a minimum, he's good for depth purposes - not sure what else though.

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09-26-2006, 03:37 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by KingHenrik35 View Post
I do think he deserves to be on this team,
If (or I should say when) Ortmeyer is healthy, who deserves to be not dressed, so that Hossa can play? Ward? Hall? Hollweg? Ortmeyer? Or does Hossa deserve to be the 13th forward?

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09-26-2006, 03:39 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
because in his last 21 games, he scored 2 goals, and assisted on zero while going -14. He did have 26 shots on goal (6 in one game), and went shotless in about 1/2 those games. I agree the effort was there. I agree that he mostly played well. It's just difficult to determine what the end point if for Hossa. Can a guy like Hollweg be just as successful on a fourth line as Hossa, and does he actually bring more to the table (as a fourth liner)? He's an enigma. Having said that, having him as part of your 23 players isn't a bad thing. He can come off the bench and play. At a minimum, he's good for depth purposes - not sure what else though.

Wow, were his +/- numbers that bad? I might have to reconsider..I know I used to use those numbers against him many atime... But seriosuly, from memory I just thought he played as a solid 3rd/4th liner at the end of the year (and in the Devil series)...And by all means, I think he should be going up against the likes of Holly, Ward, Orts and Orr for time on the 4th line...Personaly, I would only pick him over Orr, but he's not a bad 4th liner or extgra forward if he keeps the effort up and the brass doewn't want the youngsters playing on the 4th.....He's not costing much and he can be dumped at any time..

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09-26-2006, 03:41 PM
  #35
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Saw the report on Hossa beeing handed a spot this morning. Kind of been thinking on it since then.

If I know Renney correctly, he is not the type of coach who will grant a player he likes a spot, 12 days before the regular season starts. I doubt many expected him to be sent down, it where really not a issue, Renney made it a issue to give him a spot.

Anyone remember Lundqvists situation last season, he wheren't told that he would start the season in NY untill right before opening night. It where obvious, Lundqvist where head and shoulders above Montoya, still Renney wouldn't announce it, just said that they where taking it day by day ect. Renney often seems to kind of be tough on players who are playing well, push them further.

There also where Dave Maloneys raving on radio about how Hossa where close to beeing a "superstar".

I got a feeling that we will give Hossa every possible chance to break out for the first couple of weeks, if he don't, or just plays like last season, its adios.

Thats my guess, Dawes are showing that he are ready, now. He don't need to wait till december. If we send him down it will be the best player ever cut from this team while I've followed them closely. A Nigel Dawes, playing his first game in the NHL, are probably not better then Hossa early in the year, but he defenitly could be a few month into the season.

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09-26-2006, 03:51 PM
  #36
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With the way Hossa finished up last season in the playoffs, and the good preseason he is having now, he deserves to get another shot.

Dawes while he's been ok, I just thought I was gonnna see more out of him during the preseason. He doesn't look too far away though.

Greg Moore has been the best youngin in camp IMO and also deserves to get a spot on the team. It could be tough with RW being so crowded; JJ, Prucha, Ward, Orts, Hall.

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Old
09-26-2006, 03:56 PM
  #37
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Well, Hossa would seem to be one of our more controversial players.

My feeling is that the only reason he makes this team is that a handful of youngsters require a bit more seasoning.

That makes him a place holder.

He has a big body and is serviceable until either there is an injury, or the kids are judged to have acquired the needed experience.

No doubt in my mind that he's short as far as the Rangers are concerned.

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09-26-2006, 04:04 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
because in his last 21 games, he scored 2 goals, and assisted on zero while going -14. He did have 26 shots on goal (6 in one game), and went shotless in about 1/2 those games. I agree the effort was there. I agree that he mostly played well. It's just difficult to determine what the end point if for Hossa. Can a guy like Hollweg be just as successful on a fourth line as Hossa, and does he actually bring more to the table (as a fourth liner)? He's an enigma. Having said that, having him as part of your 23 players isn't a bad thing. He can come off the bench and play. At a minimum, he's good for depth purposes - not sure what else though.
Well that's kind of where I'm going with this. The effort was there, but what are we really looking at getting?

(In response to TB, I don't personally think he's close to be a second liner, meant it more as a 'best we can hope for' type observation).

I like hardwork as well, but it has to equal out to something when all is said and done (and I know I've debated Fletch a little bit in the regard to Immonen).

I just don't really know what I'd do with Hossa. There are options on the bottom two lines seems more appealing and I don't see the overall package for the top two lines.

As Fletch pointed out, even as his effort has gone up I don't really know where it's taken him too.

I'm not against anyone who is intriguiged by him, I just honestly can't see it. I don't know what I'm not seeing.

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09-26-2006, 04:20 PM
  #39
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Lets hope its september and october all year round for this guy!!! woo-hoo go hossa!

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09-26-2006, 04:20 PM
  #40
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And I think you've made the point with Immonen...

and it's a valid point - exactly where does he fit in.

Larry - I remember him playing well too. But playing hard and getting results don't always go hand-in-hand. I can't remember exactly why Hossa's +/- was so bad - part of it was his lack of points (I think one goal may've been on the PP, and the other a shortie, so none at ES, but I can be wrong) - so he had no pluses. The other was the defense struggled, but still, the margin is quite wide and even on a fourth line you should be producing more than the guy you're up against. Oddly enough, in those same games Moore was either -2 or -1 (they did play a bit together, but not exclusively - he may've played a fair amount with Betts). But in any event, aside from cycling nice a few shifts a game and decent PK (and I'd say that all Rangers forwards that killed penalties were pretty good), I keep asking what he's bringing to the table. I dunno. He's enigmatic to the nth degree for me. He's a good utility player and can play well in small stretches. Long term, there are better options. Short term, he won't hurt anybody.

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09-26-2006, 07:02 PM
  #41
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Better not start much...again, a failed 2nd liner, doesn't belong on a good team, that's the bottom line

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09-26-2006, 08:58 PM
  #42
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Hossa can kill penalites and the EFFORT is always there. He is not a liabiltiy in the offensive zone (he cycles well) and is an excellant defensive hockey player. I have no problem with him getting a spot over Dubinsky but I do over Dawes and Immonen.

How come a guy like Ward never gets the same heat as Hossa? Hossa is JUST as good a penatly killer and they both have scoring problems. The are both first round busts and lets face it Ward and Hossa are both stop gap players.

The fact that Renney had to say Hossa has a roster spot "right now" is an indication that his time as a Ranger could come to an end very soon. This wasn't a cemented Ranger coming into camp and Hossa has worked hard and made the team. He beat out guys for the last spot it isn't being handed to him. All pluses in my book yet it's the same 5 posters who never gave the trade or Hossa a chance since he got here (who was it that posted garbage for garbage last year?)

He is the perfect 13 forward to start the season. He can play on any line and can kill penalties. What more can you ask for from the last forward spot on the team?

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09-27-2006, 08:05 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I just don't really know what I'd do with Hossa. There are options on the bottom two lines seems more appealing and I don't see the overall package for the top two lines.
I think that statement basically sums it up. He is not anywhere near good enough to even sniff the top-2 lines, and there are currently at least 4 players who offer more to the role of bottom-2 line role players than he does.

Also, you bring out a very good point Edge. Unlike Ward, Hossa has never really lit up the AHL. In other words, he has basically never shown (post-draft) that he will ever be able to develop a scoring touch. So if you take that out, that leaves you with all of the other aspects of the game that others do more of than he does.

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09-27-2006, 01:02 PM
  #44
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Hossa can kill penalites and the EFFORT is always there. He is not a liabiltiy in the offensive zone (he cycles well) and is an excellant defensive hockey player. I have no problem with him getting a spot over Dubinsky but I do over Dawes and Immonen.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate effort. But to what end does it bring us? I think as a whole, the entire team works hard and interms of consistently working hard, Hossa is going to be hard pressed to match other guys.

But again the real problem with Hossa is whether he brings enough to play over other people. Again it doesn't necessarily require being God awful, just a matter of being a better option that others. I don't really feel that way about Hossa.

Quote:
How come a guy like Ward never gets the same heat as Hossa? Hossa is JUST as good a penatly killer and they both have scoring problems. The are both first round busts and lets face it Ward and Hossa are both stop gap players.
I think it's several reasons. Ward worked hard from Day 1 and continues to work hard. Ward turned himself into a valuable third line player who checked and did his defensive responsibilities. Ward was also a better at the AHL level.

You could make an argument that part of what lead to his transformation was learning to play a different game at the AHL level. He certainly wasn't learning it at the NHL level whereas Hossa isn't in the AHL learning the things Ward did.

Ward also took 9 years to get to that point. Now if a guy like that is there to be signed, it's one thing but most teams aren't going to invest 9 years in a guy just to get that kind of player.

Personally I don't think Hossa was as good as Ward, at even strength or on the PK. I don't think he was a disaster but Ward was part of one of the better PK units in the league, I don't think it would've ranked as high had Hossa been there in place of Ward.

Just personal opinion, but I wasn't overly impressed with Hossa's supposed late season surge. I appreciated the effort, but as Fletch pointed out (and it makes sense considering what I remember) there really wasn't a whole lot to point home about. Again the effort was good, but I wasn't wowed by anything he did or even that impressed for that matter. Was it that Hossa did well or that he maybe played better than expected? To me it was more of the latter.

Quote:
The fact that Renney had to say Hossa has a roster spot "right now" is an indication that his time as a Ranger could come to an end very soon. This wasn't a cemented Ranger coming into camp and Hossa has worked hard and made the team. He beat out guys for the last spot it isn't being handed to him. All pluses in my book yet it's the same 5 posters who never gave the trade or Hossa a chance since he got here (who was it that posted garbage for garbage last year?)
I don't think anyone is really going nuts about the decision, so much they feel like they always do. they just don't see it, and I tend to be in agreement with them on this issue.

And from what I saw Hossa didn't beat out much of anything, the Rangers decided they wanted guys getting tons of icetime in the AHL. And again hard work is great, but the problem I still run into is what I'd do with him.
As for the trade, the reality is that then as now it is pretty close to that description. Both guys are FIGHTING to catch on as fringe 4th liners and both are going to face tough odds to stay there if their teams get better. To me, then as it is now, it's a non-issue.

Quote:
He is the perfect 13 forward to start the season. He can play on any line and can kill penalties. What more can you ask for from the last forward spot on the team?
Results?

For all the hypnotic impressions his skill set brings, what the heck has he really done? He showed up? He actually tried? I think it's awesome that he applied himself more but I honestly just don't see it.

If he's playing on a top two lines I'm afraid and frankly I'd rather give the time to someone else. In terms of playing on the bottom lines, I'd rather do that as well.

Now if Hossa were being used as a black ace, that's one thing but I have a feeling that because of his "potential" it's going to be a more icetime than a typical 13th forward gets, all in an effort to tap into that potential and get something going.

I think that's the problem fans here have with Hossa and the problem the Montreal fans had as well. At the end of the day, for all the talk of potential, for all the talk of "hey he applied himself for this stretch" what has it resulted in? His totals over the last 21 games was nothing special, his numbers at the AHL were pretty unspectacular (outside of 1/2 of a season 3 years ago), the talk of his frame is nice except for the fact that it's rarely a factor, the talk or his cycling the puck is nice except for the fact that is doesn't seem to be enough to warrant playing him over someone else.

I just don't think cycling the puck is a good resume indicator for making this particular team or warrants the icetime that Hossa will probably get. It's like me hiring a kid out of college who lists "I can talk" as a skill. It's nice, but it's not unique and by itself just isn't enough for me.

I still findmyself with too many guys I'd rather play than Hossa, especially for the potential payoff.

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09-27-2006, 01:49 PM
  #45
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SoS...

liability in the offensive zone should be defined. I think you'd want more from even your fourth line players than to be on the ice for 12 more goals than you scored and net two points in the final 21 games of the season - 21 games in which everybody thought Hossa played his best hockey. If his best hockey is that, I'd hate to see what he can do if he wasn't playing well. I agree about the cycling, and the PK (although I think most any forward who can skate and stickhandle can play the PK), but the ultimate results are what worries me (understanding that cycling shifts are important since they keep the puck away from the opposition and sets up the next shift). I think Hossa makes this team and I'm not going to jump up and down screaming bloody murder. But when it time for someone like Dawes or Moore to jump in, or even Ortmeyer returns, I won't be disappointed to see him not on the ice.

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09-27-2006, 01:53 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
For me I just don't know what the "break out" really is for Hossa.

Assuming he reasonably puts the pieces together, he's a 25 goal, 50 point player. A nice player but one I expect to still be streaky, not overly involved physically or defensivly special. Probably a pretty average second liner.

Just seems like a lot of work and effort and time for a guy whose payoff just doesn't wow me if it even gets to that point.
Even if hossa only turns into that it will give us a good trade chip. That kind of player can fetch a pretty high price.

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09-27-2006, 01:58 PM
  #47
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Even if hossa only turns into that it will give us a good trade chip. That kind of player can fetch a pretty high price.
It depends on what the cost is to get him there. What you'd get back in trade might not necessarily compensate for the time spent.

But keep in mind that's a best case scenario and personally I don't think it's very likely.

I think Hossa will always have a big degree of inconsistency and streaky second line scorers tend to come and go pretty easily.

Remember this a guy we got for Garth Murray, his stock hasn't gone up since that time.

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09-27-2006, 04:33 PM
  #48
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Hossa is what he is and not much more. 4th liner, has good ability and skills, just never seems to put it all together, and if he does, never for more than a shift or two, let alone a full period or game. He's the forward version of Poti now, we can all ***** and moan about him, but maybe by October he'll have solidified his game, or is gone.

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09-27-2006, 09:27 PM
  #49
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I can't have another long drawn out argument. I don't the time and frankly it's not worth it because I'm not changing anybodys mind and nobody is changing my mind about Hossa. Not now at least not with another solid game...

"oh but his preseasons are always good"

so?

He has made the team on his play how the hell else was he supposed to make the team?

He solid defensivly and can killl penalties with the best of them on this team..Oh but Edge says Ward is a better penalty killer..why not back that up with some stats Edge because I can't remember many pp goals scored againts the Rangers with Hossa on the ice..

Got any evidence to back up your statements?

probably not because i don't think the league tracks it (at least not on the website) but if you could provide it lets analyze it together..

Now I love the Black aces comment that he will play more to tap into his POTENTIAL!
Like that's a bad thing infact you using the word potential...

What I love is that Renney and Sather can do no right with this "13" forward spot. If they cut hossa and make Greg Moore the 13 forward for example (I guess Helmenen won't make it huh Edge?) fans would be tearing this place down. You have the perfect guy for this spot and he and fits the team. Yet he isn't from Western Canada so the whole "power forwards" take longer to mature argument goes out the window the guy.

Like i've said earlier and in other posts about Hossa I don't think he is going to be a great player but he has developed into a nice bottom two line guy..

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Old
09-27-2006, 10:05 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post

He is the perfect 13 forward to start the season. He can play on any line and can kill penalties. What more can you ask for from the last forward spot on the team?
This is what I've been saying forever. He is the best spare forward we have and its not even close. He can play all situations, has offensive talent, defensive talent, has size and uses it to an advantage, and he works hard.

He is also not in need of "lots of minutes" in the minors and can sit/play at a moments notice. His development will not be stunted.

I'm fine with him on the team and don't understand what all the fuss is about. Just get over it and cheer for him instead of acting like you have to hate him because he's not a second liner or one of our very own drafted prospects.

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