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Why the Lockout? - Rodent

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Old
09-26-2006, 08:26 AM
  #1
HockeyBasedNYC
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Why the Lockout? - Rodent

http://hockeyrodent.com/R1620.HTM

Good little read about how fans are naive to the inner workings of owners in the post-lockout era.

Good explanation of why the Devils are still with their top unsigned players and how Sather can throw around comments like he can "dump 10M" of payroll into Hartford to free up as much room as he'd need to acquire a big talent.

I know not everyone agrees with what Rodent has to say but the guy is pretty insightful (and of course cynical) when it comes to the business end of things in the NHL. Thought this would be a good conversation to start considering the Devils only have 9 days left before they have to get "under" the cap...

Quote:
• The New Jersey Devils are playing both sides of the CBA. Last year Lamoriello attempted to vaporize the contracts of Vlad Malakhov and Alexander Mogilny after signing both unrestricted free agents to multi-year deals when Lou was the only general manager who took part in the CBA negotiations and therefore should have had a leg-up on his peers in understanding the agreement which was being crafted.
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As fans, we did not wait twelve whole months for labor and ownership to hammer out a document that was going to help us. If that's the claim, then show my wallet evidence that we benefitted.

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09-26-2006, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
http://hockeyrodent.com/R1620.HTM

Good little read about how fans are naive to the inner workings of owners in the post-lockout era.

Good explanation of why the Devils are still with their top unsigned players and how Sather can throw around comments like he can "dump 10M" of payroll into Hartford to free up as much room as he'd need to acquire a big talent.

I know not everyone agrees with what Rodent has to say but the guy is pretty insightful (and of course cynical) when it comes to the business end of things in the NHL. Thought this would be a good conversation to start considering the Devils only have 9 days left before they have to get "under" the cap...

in regards to Lou, you cant expect to work in a swamp and not come off as slimy.

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09-26-2006, 08:59 AM
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Fletch
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The funny thing is...

the Rangers' payroll goes from $80MM to under $40MM (and now a bit over $40MM), and ticket prices go up. I understand they hadn't gone up in a while, but with their biggest cost being halved, you'd think it would've stayed constant (I'm assuming this is what Rodent meant by "show my wallet evidence that we benefitted".

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Old
09-26-2006, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
I know not everyone agrees with what Rodent has to say but the guy is pretty insightful (and of course cynical) when it comes to the business end of things in the NHL.

Who? Name them.. I'll kill 'em..


Or not, but I dig the Rodent.

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Old
09-26-2006, 09:31 AM
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HockeyBasedNYC
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Originally Posted by Davisian View Post
Who? Name them.. I'll kill 'em..


Or not, but I dig the Rodent.
Yeah he's opened my eyes to a few things otherwise not easily detected, always an entertaining bit from his end.

It just seems like what Lou is doing (under the table signings, the Malakhov and Mogilny situations) is blatant defiance to what Rodent calls the "spirit of the CBA" - but then again if you can circumvent the rules and find a way to do these things without consequences, fine. I'm more upset with Bettman and Daly for not stepping in and doing something about it, unless they are waiting for the ball to drop to hand out punishments. But considering all that has gone on in the labor laws with all sports, the rules will always be bent and fans will always question the integrity of these so called "collective bargaining agreements" -

The important thing is we have hockey and for the passive fan thats cool, but for the diehards who are passionate about the game its nice to see some accountability when the rules are broken or even bent because WE are the ones getting played in the end. I guess thats just life.


Last edited by HockeyBasedNYC: 09-26-2006 at 09:37 AM.
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Old
09-26-2006, 09:49 AM
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The Devils are angling for a special dispensation for Alexander Mogilny

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Old
09-26-2006, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
I'm more upset with Bettman and Daly for not stepping in and doing something about it, unless they are waiting for the ball to drop to hand out punishments.

They can't step in because Lou hasn't done anything wrong yet.

He's allowed to be over at this point, and Gionta and Martin are allowed to play preseason.

What happens next is going to be the first big test to the new CBA, so it should be interesting to watch.

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09-26-2006, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
the Rangers' payroll goes from $80MM to under $40MM (and now a bit over $40MM), and ticket prices go up. I understand they hadn't gone up in a while, but with their biggest cost being halved, you'd think it would've stayed constant (I'm assuming this is what Rodent meant by "show my wallet evidence that we benefitted".

keep in mind that last season tickets were "reduced" as part of the whole "Thank the Fans" movement. This years increase is just going back to normal

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09-26-2006, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The Devils are angling for a special dispensation for Alexander Mogilny
Classifying his hip problem at a long term injury that's preventing him from playing per Bob McKenzie.

Quote:
What isn't specified in this clause of the CBA, though, is what happens when an over-35 player on a multi-year contract suffers a Long Term Injury.

The fact that there isn't precise wording on this would appear to leave it open to some kind of interpretation on the part of the league. That, in the case of Mogilny, there may be a chance the Devils could get some cap relief as long as Mogilny has a legitimate long-term injury.

Mogilny has apparently been examined by Devil doctors and the report is that his chronic hip condition will prevent him from being able to play. Conceivably, that would make Mogilny more of a Long Term Injured player than a retired one.

And that could be the Devils' way of not having Mogilny's $3.5 million salary count against the cap this season.
http://www.tsn.ca/tsn_talent/columnists/bob_mckenzie/

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Old
09-26-2006, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davisian View Post
They can't step in because Lou hasn't done anything wrong yet.

He's allowed to be over at this point, and Gionta and Martin are allowed to play preseason.

What happens next is going to be the first big test to the new CBA, so it should be interesting to watch.
I know, thats why i hope that bettman and daly are waiting for "the ball to drop" to kick into gear.
Bettman should have stepped in and did something about that 15 year contract on the Island though.

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09-26-2006, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Classifying his hip problem at a long term injury that's preventing him from playing per Bob McKenzie.



http://www.tsn.ca/tsn_talent/columnists/bob_mckenzie/
Mogilny had major hip surgery in Toronto.The Devils knew what they were buying.Especially with that clause regarding signing players 35 and over to multi-year contracts.Buyer beware.The second year should count against the cap regardless of the player's status.Another factor is this

Quote:
According to the NHL's collective bargaining agreement, Mogilny would be ineligible for the long-term injured reserve -- which would remove his $3.5 million salary from the Devils' cap commitments -- because he finished last season with Albany in the AHL
http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?...Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2

The NHL has apparently told teams any term after the first counts and now the NHL is trying to give their buddy Lou a break

Quote:
The major issue of precedent stands as another likely problem for the Devils' case. If they are granted LTI cap relief for Mogilny, it will effectively make any long-term incapacity an exception to the rule that says the second and subsequent years of contracts signed by over-35s count against the cap, "whether or wherever," they play.

Other teams declined signing over-35s to multiyear deals, believing the CBA means what it says. They suggest the second season on those contracts could be the winning difference in offers, and shouldn't then be forgiven, changing the rules after the fact. "That's why I didn't sign [Martin] Rucinsky," Rangers GM Clen Sather told The Post
http://www.nypost.com/seven/09252006...rk_everson.htm

The Devils passed Mogilny on his physical last September.Didn't have any hip issues playing for the Devils.He had 25 points in 34 games for them before being sent to Albany to finish the season.Now he comes back and fails his physical.Where did he get injured?Albany.How convienent?

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Old
09-26-2006, 10:39 AM
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What the Rodent says only briefly that while glen may be able to send players down to hartford for cap relief, it also puts them on waivers, its not like you can just send them down there anytime you want w/o any consequences, you send any player of note down on waivers, hes going to be picked up.

and who exactly would the rangers put on waivers? if you look at the way our salary structure is dispersed, ANY player w/ a decent salary who would need to be exposed to waivers would be lost almost immediately.

putting them on hartford is one thing, but were not talking about a situation like the devils are in where the players are unbelievably old, and are incapable of playing.

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09-26-2006, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
What the Rodent says only briefly that while glen may be able to send players down to hartford for cap relief, it also puts them on waivers, its not like you can just send them down there anytime you want w/o any consequences, you send any player of note down on waivers, hes going to be picked up.

and who exactly would the rangers put on waivers? if you look at the way our salary structure is dispersed, ANY player w/ a decent salary who would need to be exposed to waivers would be lost almost immediately.

putting them on hartford is one thing, but were not talking about a situation like the devils are in where the players are unbelievably old, and are incapable of playing.
Pull a Lou and send Ozolinsh down.

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Old
09-26-2006, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
Pull a Lou and send Ozolinsh down.
When he recovers from knee surgery,they will

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Old
09-26-2006, 11:55 AM
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Another very good article by Rodent.

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Old
09-26-2006, 12:40 PM
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That may be true, Skroob...

but I believe the prices are above where they were pre-lockout (i.e., $80MM payroll).

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09-26-2006, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
but I believe the prices are above where they were pre-lockout (i.e., $80MM payroll).
I believe they are as well.

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09-26-2006, 01:10 PM
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My biggest problem with the lockout is that the biggest whiners turn into the biggest spenders. We have to listen for 12 months about how these small market teams can't compete with the heavy spenders... even though you can go through the list of champs and find how many moderate spenders? I have to read how Kevin Lowe will take the ball and go home if there isn't a hard cap. He then proceeds to break the bank and spend sums which Edmonton had us believing were impossible to reach considering their humble market. You have that bum Jacobs in Boston throwing lie after lie about the players and the status of the league (without fine I might add) and he goes out and builds a very expensive, very pathetic team through UFA almost exclusively.

Some times I feel like the whole point was to hamstring the bigger teams. Why I don't know, you would think teams would want the Rangers following their original plan. It's painfully obvious to the rest of the league that the way to build a team is slow and steady, through the draft and moderate UFA action... exactly like Carolina, Buffalo and NYR (well, not like NYR just yet).

Somehow before the cap the NHL only generates somewhere in the range of $2b or less. Their "independent" auditor confirms the numbers add up... numbers provide by the league, not numbers generated through documents or reciepts through an investigation by auditors. The best part of the new CBA is that revenues are clearly defined. Hidding these revenues carries heavy penalties. It's still early, but it looks like the players win again in regrads to the CBA when the owners felt they were the clear winners at first. So I guess the answer to the question, why was there a lockout, well I guess for me it is about Revenues and expenses. The definition and rules regarding them. The climate of sports in the 21st century.

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09-26-2006, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skroob View Post
keep in mind that last season tickets were "reduced" as part of the whole "Thank the Fans" movement. This years increase is just going back to normal

Wrong! Last season's lower prices was not a thank you to the fans. It was Dolan making good on his promise before the lockout to lower the prices because the old "bought" Rangers hadn't made the playoffs since 1997.

How does he reward himself after one season of making the playoffs? He raises revenue to offset the atrocious Knicks by sticking it to the Ranger fans?

The seating plan in the Garden has been completely reconfigured to jack up the prices and make them so prohibitive to season subscribers as to force them to the cheaper corner and side seats and up to the Blues. Only 22 game plans now have full playoff rights, up from the 14 games as in the dark times 97 to 04.

The reconfiguration of the seating plan is not going back to normal. It's making it harder and harder for the "True Blue" fan to retain a decent seat to the game.

It's all about the Benjamins for Charlie, make no mistake. He''ll get away with it as long as the product on the ice remains palatable. If the Rangers start to tank again (as long as Renney and Maloney are in charge unlikely), Dolan will drop prices again to put ***** in seats. That or put on another dog and pony show and retire Leetch's number whether Leetch wants to or not. (Messier will talk Leetch into forgiving Slats and go with the programme for just one night).

It's their game and we are just pawns.

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09-26-2006, 08:31 PM
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the reason the smaller market teams are now spending is because they know they have an equal chance to win, and dont have to pay more to get talent to come to them. the cap works, the canes winning it is proof of that.

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09-26-2006, 09:26 PM
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Melrose should be able to back me up on this one, but reading this article about all the GM's sneaking around the very rules they helped to fashion is depressingly similar to reading an article about rules changes in Formula 1.

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09-27-2006, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
the reason the smaller market teams are now spending is because they know they have an equal chance to win, and dont have to pay more to get talent to come to them. the cap works, the canes winning it is proof of that.
But the Lightning and Flames in the Cup Final is proof that the old system wasn't broken. The goal of any cap system is parity and the NHL had it. Look at all of the conference finalists over the years. This is something Brooks always brought up, in I think the last 4 years, there were 12 different con. finalists out of a possible 16 spots. Spending loads of cash didn't help NYR, it depleted the Wings. Teams like Colorado, Detriot, NJ and Philly had tons of success but I think it can be argued that they drafted better than anyone in the league. The Devils had continued success despite losing players they couldn't afford to UFA. These great teams had talent from drafting that they developed properly through the system. Even Carolina owed the cup to players acquired through the draft or smart trades before the lockout. Recchi and Weight didn't really do that much. Staal, C. Ward, and until injury Cole were big parts. Brind'amore was acquired in the old system. There is nothing wrong with having a cap, but my biggest gripe is that for all of the pulpit thumping and crying they didn't fix anything that needed fixing. We lost a year because of "disparity" and "red ink". And soon enough we are going to find that it was an illusion created by those that wanted their cap.

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09-27-2006, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Mugerya View Post
We lost a year because of "disparity" and "red ink". And soon enough we are going to find that it was an illusion created by those that wanted their cap.
It has always been about the money. The Pens were crying poverty for years, yet the second the new CBA was signed they went out and opened up the bank faults for Gonchar, Leclair & Recchi. Following a year where there was no revenue, where the the money suddenly come from?
Quote:
Their "independent" auditor confirms the numbers add up... numbers provide by the league, not numbers generated through documents or reciepts through an investigation by auditors.
That is absolutely correct. During the lockout, this board had many a discussion on the revenues and books as they were presented by the owners. Those numbers had more holed in them, than swiss cheese. There are reasons why the accounting firms were never really performing a true audit, but rather an agreed-upon procedures report. The difference between the two is the accounting firms never investigated the numbers like they would in an audit, but rather reported on the numbers presented to them by the owners.

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09-27-2006, 09:04 AM
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Melrose should be able to back me up on this one, but reading this article about all the GM's sneaking around the very rules they helped to fashion is depressingly similar to reading an article about rules changes in Formula 1.
I don't blame NHL GM's or F1 Team Bosses for exploiting a rule or loophole anywhere they can. There are huge monitary interests vested in the performances of either type of team. You can chuck the "spirit of the CBA" or Concorde Agreement out the window if the option is feilding an uncompetitive team.

The degree to which rules are exploited really depends on how they're enforced. If you're Ferrari, who brings the most money, the most popular driver and the most recognizable brand names to the sport, history has shown you can thumb your nose at the rules with absolutely no recourse. Knowing how much Bettman wants financial success for each team above all else, I don't he's going to enforce the CBA to a degree that causes a team financial hardship.

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09-27-2006, 09:13 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Knowing how much Bettman wants financial success for each team above all else, I don't he's going to enforce the CBA to a degree that causes a team financial hardship.
I agree, but I just do not see a way out of the entire mess here for Lou, Bettman's help or not. This is not changing the fact the to sign all of the players he needs to, he is probably going to have to trade someone. Bettman may give Lou some leeway, but even he can only do so much here.

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