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Houston and the NHL.

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Old
02-16-2010, 10:22 AM
  #1
Melrose Munch
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Houston and the NHL.

~Please keep bickering about southern markets out of this thread. Thank You.~

Can somebody tell me why Houston, the 10th largest TV market does not have an NHL team?

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02-16-2010, 10:33 AM
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smitty10
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I would think that since Dallas has one, they felt it wasn't necessary to have more than 1 team in Texas. The people in Houston can follow the Stars if they're interested in hockey, but I don't see the NHL moving to Houston any time soon. I would think that there are a few cities that will get teams before Houston.

1. Winnipeg
2. Kansas City
3. Quebec City
4. Las Vegas
5. Houston

IMO.

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02-16-2010, 10:39 AM
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Brodie
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Simply put, after Alexander failed to acquire the Oilers and they were passed over in the next expansion the city decided to focus on the NFL. And I think we can all agree the status quo is fine.

I think it's funny that people talk about footprints, etc. when it's extremely likely that the results of the 2010 census will show Houston surpassing Chicago in population. And yet nobody is proposing any relocations to hit such an obvious market.

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02-16-2010, 10:44 AM
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How long has the NFL thrived without a team in the #2 media market?

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02-16-2010, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
How long has the NFL thrived without a team in the #2 media market?
Their about to go into a lockout, and like the NBA, they have too many small markets.

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02-16-2010, 11:02 AM
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Alan Jackson
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The 10th largest market in the US does not mean it would be the tenth largest hockey market. Far from it.

Why is there no team in Mexico City?

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02-16-2010, 11:21 AM
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Melrose Munch
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Originally Posted by Alan Jackson View Post
The 10th largest market in the US does not mean it would be the tenth largest hockey market. Far from it.

Why is there no team in Mexico City?
I assume Bettman does not think its safe.

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02-16-2010, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by lindrosfan88 View Post
I assume Bettman does not think its safe.
Nah. Bettman proabably supports getting a team down there... it's gotta be the owners thats keeping that thriving market from an NHL team. Curse them!

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02-16-2010, 11:38 AM
  #9
james bond
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It surprises me a little bit that Houston does not have a team. Rivalries are really big in Texas (no pun intended). However, with the economy the way it is, I dont see any expansion. Relocation is a slight possibility. Houston has supported hockey (Aeros) for years. I think you would be getting corporate and fan support. Popularity wise, in the unravelling of Tom Hicks, his Dallas Stars are turning out to be a crown jewel.
Despite that, some of the aforementioned cities would probably get consideration before Houston.

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02-16-2010, 12:24 PM
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Not bickering, but Sharks fan here in Dallas, been to Houston as well. NHL Hockey seems to barely be on the radar here in Dallas, and I imagine it would be far worse in Houston. Sure the first year or two it would do well, but then there would be a big drop off. I feel the same way about Kansas City as well, more so with KC because KC is considered an oversaturated sports market that financially cannot support the two major pro sports it currently has, let alone another NHL or NBA franchise. If market studies support it, I think Seattle should be considered before KC, Houston, etc (Talking about US markets only). But the move of the SuperSonics could mean that the economy can't support 3 teams.

While I think it would make more sense to have a team in Houston than Southern Florida, unless the Panthers are moving I don't see it happening.


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02-16-2010, 12:37 PM
  #11
kdb209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
Simply put, after Alexander failed to acquire the Oilers and they were passed over in the next expansion the city decided to focus on the NFL. And I think we can all agree the status quo is fine.
More background on the failed Houston expansion bid(s) in '97.

There were three competing bids - none with a suitable arena at the time.

Les Alexander has also publicly expressed interest in bringing an NHL team to the Toyota Center (as recently as during the lockout) - but I've heard little from/about him through all the Pittsburgh/Nashville/Phoenix soap operas.

Cut-and-pasting from an old "Winnipeg/Quebec" thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209
Quote:
Originally Posted by leek
The Oilers didn't move there If I remember correctly Houston has never applied for an expansion franchise. A quick search found no evidence of an application.
Actually there were three separate Houston bids in '97 for the Atlanta/Columbus/Minnesota/Nashville expansion - unfortunately none of them had any plans for an arena. Les Alexander was not involved with any of the bids - he was still in negotiations with the city on building a new arena for his NBA Rockets and was not interested at that time in sharing the still-in-the-planning-stages Toyota Center. OKC was the other finalist bid in '97.

The Toyota Center was rejected in a referenedum in '97, then approved in a second vote in '99, construction started in '01, and it opened in Sept '03.

edit: Two of the Houston bids in '97 were from Bob McNair (owner of the NFL Texans) and the Maloof brothers (former owners of the NBA Houston Rockets and current owners of the Sacramento Kings).

http://www.houstonhistory.com/citize...story30hof.htm

Quote:
In the first part of 1997, football was on the back burner of Bob McNair's mind, as he attempted to bring a National Hockey League team to Houston. In June 1997, the NHL owners turned down his efforts to bring an expansion hockey team to Houston, stating, among other reasons, that the Compaq Center was not an adequate facility for an expansion hockey team.
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/1997...ng-quick-pace/

Quote:
Many times this decade the Maloofs have attempted to purchase another major sports franchise. A deal to re-acquire the Rockets in 1992 fell through, and their $120 million offer last summer to buy the San Antonio Spurs was rejected. Their bid last winter to place an NHL expansion team in Houston failed.
A quick google did not turn up info on the third Houston bid.

edit 2: The final Houston bid was from Chuck Watson, owner of the (then IHL) Houston Aeros.

And a correction - it appears Les Alexander was one of the bidders and McNair was part of Watson's group.

Also, McNair and Watson pursued the Oilers as well as Alexander, and were willing to extend credit to the local group so scuttle any sale to Alexander.

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/01/14/sp...n-the-nhl.html

Quote:
Houston has three groups competing for a franchise. One by one, behind closed doors, each made a 90-minute presentation yesterday. Houston's case is blemished. The Oilers are absconding to Tennessee in 1998 for a more modern, comfortable and profitable football home than the Astrodome. Two of Houston's bidders for a hockey franchise are embroiled in a lawsuit over the arena now used for hockey and basketball.

''The commissioner told us the three big factors for an expansion team were ownership, market and arena,'' said Tony Guanci of Sports Facilities, a development consultant working with the Maloof family, one of Houston's three bidders.

Houston has the market. Its city-owned arena, the Summit, is 20 years old and healthy, but with only a few luxury boxes. Local officials plan to build a $175 million to $200 million downtown arena. Financing is not set, but that does not appear to be a hurdle.

However, the league is watching the infighting between Leslie Alexander and Chuck Watson, two of Houston's three bidders. Alexander owns the Houston Rockets. Watson owns the Houston Aeros of the independent International Hockey League.

Watson owns the master lease to operate the Summit, where the Rockets play. The Rockets are in court trying to break their lease, which runs to 2003, so they can move into a new arena when it is ready.

After their presentations, each Houston group made a case for itself and against the opposition.

Watson: ''We have an arena and new financing. In the last three years, our group has spent $30 million creating the demand for N.H.L. hockey.''

Alexander: ''I have the Rockets, a women's basketball team and an Arena football team. I think you need a major sports background, not just a hockey background. I don't think running a minor league franchise does that for you.''

Gavin Maloof: ''We once owned the Rockets. We have no lease-franchise conflict now. We're not entangled in suits. We can focus 100 percent on the N.H.L.''
http://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/Edmo...s/articles.htm

Quote:
Meanwhile two groups snubbed by the NHL for expansion, the Gaylord family (newspapers, Opryland) in Oklahoma City and Chuck Watson and Bob McNair (oil and gas) in Houston, are hungrily eyeing the only existing team currently up for sale, the Edmonton Oilers.
Quote:
Chuck Watson, who with Bob McNair lost the expansion bid for an NHL team in Houston because they don't have a new arena in place, said something that had an ominous tone for those who hope a way can be found to keep the Oilers in Edmonton.

"Mr. Bettman told me Bob and I should continue our efforts to bring the NHL to Houston," said Watson, "and we intend to do that. We have an indication from the NHL that the league ... will be supportive in our attempts to pursue other options."
Quote:
For the first time in weeks, Nichols had the luxury of spending the day not rushing from meeting to meeting or drafting paperwork for Alberta Treasury Branches, which effectively seized the Oil last fall after ex-owner Peter Pocklington rung up at least $100 million in debts.

ATB's first serious suitor for the hockey squad, Les Alexander, had promised to skate the Oilers down to Texas if locals couldn't thwart his bid with a $100-million deal before midnight Friday the 13th.

Provided ATB accepts the local offer early next week, investors still need NHL approval by April 27 and all $100 million in to the bank's coffers by no later than May 5.

Robert McNair, an arch-rival of Alexander with similar NHL aspirations for Houston, was glad Nichols and company had managed to quash his offer.

"I think it's in the best interest of hockey that it worked out the way it did. I really do," said McNair, whose business partner Chuck Watson had offered locals a $50-million lifeline if bank financing had fallen apart.
edit 3: Alexander, Watson, McNair, and the Maloofs were among the US groups interested in the Sens in '99.

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/article/20482

Quote:
In Ottawa, Allen Panzeri writes today that if the Senators are sold to a U.S. group, "they'll likely end up in Houston." Among interested parties listed: Rockets Owner Les Alexander, IHL Aeros Owner Chuck Watson, Houston NFL expansion team Owner Bob McNair, Seahawks/Blazers Owner Paul Allen and NBA Kings Owners Joe and Gavin Maloof (OTTAWA CITIZEN, 10/27).

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Old
02-16-2010, 12:55 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
I think it's funny that people talk about footprints, etc. when it's extremely likely that the results of the 2010 census will show Houston surpassing Chicago in population. And yet nobody is proposing any relocations to hit such an obvious market.
Not true. 2008 figures, city alone: Chicago 2,853,114 Houston 2,242,193, with Chicago losing 1.5% from 2000-08 and Houston gaining 13.5%. There's no way Houston catches Chicago this year. You don't want to use city figures alone to assess the size of a market anyway; Cook County is the US county with the highest number of incorporated municipalities. Metro area population: Chicago about 9.5 million, Houston 5.7 million. Chicago is about 65% larger than Houston.

Back on subject, given attendance troubles in places such as Atlanta and Florida, it'll take more than a high population figure to bring the NHL there. (This is not "southern market bashing".)

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02-16-2010, 12:55 PM
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Rivalries get people interested in sports and a Dallas/Houston Rivalry could bring interest to the sport in Texas. At the least now Dallas would have three guarenteed sell outs a season from a team in Houston.

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02-16-2010, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by finchster View Post
Rivalries get people interested in sports and a Dallas/Houston Rivalry could bring interest to the sport in Texas. At the least now Dallas would have three guarenteed sell outs a season from a team in Houston.
Not to get off topic, but I had a question regarding geographical rivalries. How's the Tampa and Florida rivalry? The NHL had placed two teams in Florida to create a rivalry. I know neither were really great at the same time. Today both are in a tight race for the playoffs. Are the Tampa games 1/2 full of Panthers fans and visa versa? Does the close proximity really matter here? Is there real animosity there? I really don't know, that's why I'm asking. I never really hear much about a "Florida State Rivalry" in the NHL. Would a team in Houston really automatically create a rivalry or would it take years and meeting each other in the playoffs like every other team? With so many teams, what are the chances the two would meet in the playoffs enough to create this?


Last edited by David_99: 02-16-2010 at 01:49 PM.
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02-16-2010, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_99 View Post
Are the Tampa games 1/2 full of Panthers fans and visa versa? Does the close proximity really matter here? Is there real animosity there? I really don't know, that's why I'm asking. I never really hear much about a "Florida State Rivalry" in the NHL. Would a team in Houston really automatically create a rivalry or would it take years and meeting each other in the playoffs like every other team?
Speaking in terms of pure stereotype, but having some familiarity with the people of each state, Texas seem naturally more prone to a "rival" mentality than Floridians.

Maybe it's because of Florida's high transplant population, but the people there seem more pro-us than anti-them. They just don't get that worked up over sports unless it approaches a championship level. And if there is any venom to the TB-Fla rivalry it has never been apparent to me.

Texas on the other hand puts a lot of cultural value on being proud of your home. That's partially why sports are such a big deal there -- a high school football game against the nearby town can seem like a lifetime-defining event to those involved. Likewise, pro sport rivalries (especially those involving the Cowboys) seem to take on a whole different level of importance there.

A good barometer might be the relationship between the Rockets and Mavericks (Astros/Rangers and Cowboys/Texans rarely play each other) since they have a schedules and venues to what might exist in the NHL. I can't speak much to whether those games have any extra importance, though.

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02-16-2010, 02:33 PM
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kdb209
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Speaking in terms of pure stereotype, but having some familiarity with the people of each state, Texas seem naturally more prone to a "rival" mentality than Floridians.
Except where Florida, Florida State, and Miami are involved.

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02-16-2010, 02:51 PM
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If you get a chance, watch ESPN's 30 for 30 series. The episode about the University of Miami Hurricanes was a great story about a team of local players and how it transformed the U of Miami. They have had some grreat rivalries with Florida State among others.
Just in case you are wondering about rivalries and if they can get started.
I think you would have to look at the brass running those teams if you are wondering why the rivalry is slow to build. The current management for teams dont have a connection to the respective cities and are probably there just to collect a paycheck. Where are they from anyway? It might be wise to develop and cultivate some local people. Give it time.

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02-16-2010, 04:12 PM
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Houston would be a great prospective market for the NHL, and imo was a safer choice at the time than any of the southern markets they chose to expand in. That said, any market that goes in Houston is going to have growing pains: but with good ownership, a lot of capital and a good GM they have a good chance at being successful.

Having Dallas as a team already helps them out and Dallas/Houston could easily get a rivalry going if they play each other enough (politics, religion, geography, state spending money, you name it).

iirc, and the thread up there talks about it, Edmonton almost got sold to there but it ended up not going down in the end. I think in future expansion, Houston will definitely get considered. However, in terms of the fans list (who knows the GMs list) Canadian cities probably come first before another southern team.

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02-16-2010, 04:32 PM
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Houston and Atlanta are the two cities that grew the fastest after reconstruction (Period after the American Civil War). They were the two cities that were the first to get professional teams. Houston could be an option in a stronger economic situation. The next situation coming up is an interesting one. The NFL is talking relocation. The NBA is talking contraction. MLB is stagnate.

I'm not familiar enough with Houston to know if they are really a viable option for a team.

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02-16-2010, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
Houston and Atlanta are the two cities that grew the fastest after reconstruction (Period after the American Civil War). They were the two cities that were the first to get professional teams. Houston could be an option in a stronger economic situation. The next situation coming up is an interesting one. The NFL is talking relocation. The NBA is talking contraction. MLB is stagnate.

I'm not familiar enough with Houston to know if they are really a viable option for a team.

Link please?

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02-16-2010, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_99 View Post
Not to get off topic, but I had a question regarding geographical rivalries. How's the Tampa and Florida rivalry? The NHL had placed two teams in Florida to create a rivalry. I know neither were really great at the same time. Today both are in a tight race for the playoffs. Are the Tampa games 1/2 full of Panthers fans and visa versa? Does the close proximity really matter here? Is there real animosity there? I really don't know, that's why I'm asking. I never really hear much about a "Florida State Rivalry" in the NHL. Would a team in Houston really automatically create a rivalry or would it take years and meeting each other in the playoffs like every other team? With so many teams, what are the chances the two would meet in the playoffs enough to create this?
Well not to sound rude to the fans in Florida, but Florida is the death bed of professional sports. Baseball, Basketball, even their NFL teams have low attendance.

At least Dallas is a well supported team in the NHL

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02-16-2010, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by UlfIsDMan View Post
Just how close did Houston come to getting the Oilers?
Literally hours.

The Alberta Treasury Branch, which seized the franchise from Pocklington, had come to an agreement with Alexander and had set a deadline for local investors to match the offer. The 37 man EIG investor group came up with the money and put down a $5M deposit only hours before the deadline.

Quote:
March 13, 1998
Local investors bid to buy Oilers
Bob Weber
The Canadian Press

Edmonton - A group of local investors took a first step toward keeping their beloved hockey team in town when they submitted a bid to buy the Edmonton Oilers on Friday, just hours before their midnight deadline ran out.

The announcement capped weeks of huddling by lawyers, accountants and a collection of local millionaires ranging from real estate developers to gas station owners.

The group had until Friday to table an offer to buy the team for $70 million US, or about $102 million Cdn. Houston businessman Les Alexander has offered $82.5 million US but plans to move the team to the United States.
Of course, the league had to relax their ownership guidelines to allow EIG to be approved as owners - but, for some reason, Bettman just doesn't get any credit for helping keep the Oilers in Edmonton.

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02-16-2010, 05:18 PM
  #23
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Link please?
The way the poster put it was kind of off. NFL fans are talking relocation. The league itself is not but its pretty much a similar situation with NHL fans and Atlanta, Florida, and Phoenix.

Buffalo has long been rumored to be going to Toronto once Ralph Wilson dies

Quote:
"We don't want to lose our team to Toronto," Petrinec said.

Back in October, a Forbes Magazine article listed the Buffalo Bills as the third-likeliest major sports franchise to move, behind the Florida Marlins and Tampa Bay Rays.
Quote:
Canada looms just a mile away across the Peace Bridge; Toronto, with its population base of more than 5 million, is only about 90-mile drive from Buffalo.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...reg&id=3740298

The Jacksonville Jaguars are having all types of problems

Quote:
Through three games in Jacksonville Municipal Stadium, the Jaguars have played to 68.3 percent capacity, the NFL's lowest figure.
Quote:
When a proposed 75,000-seat stadium in Los Angeles recently cleared the final legislative and environmental hurdles, Jacksonville became, in many minds, the leading candidate for relocation.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...ksonville/Main

Both the Rams and Chargers have also been subjected to relocation rumors.

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02-16-2010, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
The way the poster put it was kind of off. NFL fans are talking relocation. The league itself is not but its pretty much a similar situation with NHL fans and Atlanta, Florida, and Phoenix.

Buffalo has long been rumored to be going to Toronto once Ralph Wilson dies





http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...reg&id=3740298

The Jacksonville Jaguars are having all types of problems





http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...ksonville/Main

Both the Rams and Chargers have also been subjected to relocation rumors.
Thanks. NFL for Toronto would be great

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02-16-2010, 08:05 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
I think Seattle should be considered before KC, Houston, etc (Talking about US markets only). But the move of the SuperSonics could mean that the economy can't support 3 teams.
Portland, Oregon should be ahead of Seattle, Washington for an NHL team.

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