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Gretzky and Kurri vs Lemieux and Jagr

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Old
11-21-2003, 09:26 PM
  #76
tom_servo
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How about Lemieux/Kurri vs. Gretzky/Jagr?


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Old
11-21-2003, 09:27 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canucklehead17
Gretzky and Kurri. I think that Kurri was the finest pure shooter/goal scorer the game ever saw, and Gretzky was quite simply the smartest player/passer ever in the game. Lemieux and Jagr were dominant, but not as much so as Gretzky and Kurri.

~Canucklehead~

Bossy
Lemieux
Bobby Hull
Brett Hull

all better than Kurri.

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Old
11-21-2003, 09:41 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shakes
Gretzky = 945 more assisits than Lemieux and 211 more goals than Lemieux.

Man, would I like to do business with you if you think those figures equal out.
I'd like to see that business if.....

Games played:
Lemieux-889
Gretzky-1487

Now...points.
Lemieux-1701
Gretzky-2857

Now...PPG
1.91
1.92

I'd say they are about equal.....now lets do business.

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Old
11-21-2003, 10:12 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pavel datsyuk
I'd like to see that business if.....

Games played:
Lemieux-889
Gretzky-1487

Now...points.
Lemieux-1701
Gretzky-2857

Now...PPG
1.91
1.92

I'd say they are about equal.....now lets do business.
We can't talk IFs. If we are doing that, we may as well talk about how good Wayne could have been if he was given a bit more size...

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11-21-2003, 10:17 PM
  #80
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Datsyuk, don't you read what I say

I think it all comes back to this with Wayne and Mario, Talent is wonderful and if your picking a player for one game, then you can go by it (and intangibles of course), but if your comparing careers, its no contest, Mario was great, but just not on Gretz's level.

Thats really what it comes back to on this debate, Talent vs. Actual Performance of a Career. There are alotta if's in talent when translating to a Career (read: Daigle) so you have to specify really under what circumstances your picking the players.

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Old
11-21-2003, 10:28 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KariyaIsGod
We can't talk IFs. If we are doing that, we may as well talk about how good Wayne could have been if he was given a bit more size...
Who has to talk "ifs" when comparing skill? We know they're very comparable on the ice, game for game.

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11-21-2003, 10:38 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Nope. We'll have to disagree.
Jagr was better than Kurri period.
Can you believe he counted in more than 50% of his team's goals in a defensive era with Jan Hrdina and Kip Miller on his side?
Kurri needed Gretzky to be on his side to exist as an NHL player.
By no means am I tring to downgrade Kurri's talent. He was an amazing player. But a guy like Teemu Selanne is a good comparison to Kurri.
Jagr is on a whole new level.
Uh, sorry, the only level that Jagr's higher than Kurri is on being a whiny little ****. Kurri proved after Gretz was gone that he could play without him, Jagr's just sat in Washington and where are they now? Yeah, he's sure carrying a team... to its graveyard.

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Old
11-21-2003, 10:46 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_servo
Who has to talk "ifs" when comparing skill? We know they're very comparable on the ice, game for game.
Thats still the question though servo, are we comparing single game talents, or all-time careers?

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Old
11-21-2003, 10:59 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibleedoil
Uh, sorry, the only level that Jagr's higher than Kurri is on being a whiny little ****. Kurri proved after Gretz was gone that he could play without him, Jagr's just sat in Washington and where are they now? Yeah, he's sure carrying a team... to its graveyard.
You're absolutely right.
Kurri's career went downhill.
Jagr's career after Mario's retirement went up.
See he put a bottom feeder team on his back and carried them to the second round of the playoffs each year.
He won MPV, Art Rosses, Pearsons, appeared once in over 50% of his team's goals, etc...

You need to think twice before you post dude.

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Old
11-22-2003, 12:06 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
You're absolutely right.
Kurri's career went downhill.
Jagr's career after Mario's retirement went up.
See he put a bottom feeder team on his back and carried them to the second round of the playoffs each year.

You need to think twice before you post dude.
I guess it's all relative. Take your own advice man. :p

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Old
11-22-2003, 06:36 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_servo
Who has to talk "ifs" when comparing skill? We know they're very comparable on the ice, game for game.
Fine, but as long as we are talking about IFs and talent, we may as well include Londros and Daigle in the discussion.

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11-22-2003, 09:52 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KariyaIsGod
Fine, but as long as we are talking about IFs and talent, we may as well include Londros and Daigle in the discussion.
That's ridiculous. Lemieux has done enough in the NHL games he's played to warrant a meaningful comparison with Gretzky. Has Daigle or Lindros? The ifs surrounding Lemieux involve things out of his control (injuries)... what's Daigle's excuse?

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Old
11-22-2003, 09:57 AM
  #88
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gretz and kuti were togetehr what 7 yrs

lemiuex jagr were together ummm 10 yrs?


jagr and lemiuex are what 6'5 6' 4" ?


gretzky and kurri are 5'11

both pairs are great

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Old
11-22-2003, 12:49 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilmour's Way
gretz and kuti were togetehr what 7 yrs

lemiuex jagr were together ummm 10 yrs?


jagr and lemiuex are what 6'5 6' 4" ?


gretzky and kurri are 5'11

both pairs are great
I think the heights are more like:

Jagr - 6'3''
Lemieux - 6'4''
Gretzky - 6'0''
Kurri - 6'1''

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Old
11-22-2003, 01:46 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeN_Ace2
I guess it's all relative. Take your own advice man. :p
Any argument to back up that opinion?

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Old
11-22-2003, 05:27 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Any argument to back up that opinion?
Sure.

To say Kurri dried up he left Gretzky isn't true. He spent 13 of his 17 seasons on Gretzky's wing. 2 of which were the final years of his career, where he played a defensive role. The other two he was was an impact player, leading the Gretzky-less Oilers in scoring one year (>100 points) and the other he finished 2nd while winning another Cup.

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Old
11-22-2003, 06:59 PM
  #92
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Gretzky and Kurri

Jagr is a bum.

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Old
11-22-2003, 10:55 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCD
Sure.

To say Kurri dried up he left Gretzky isn't true. He spent 13 of his 17 seasons on Gretzky's wing. 2 of which were the final years of his career, where he played a defensive role. The other two he was was an impact player, leading the Gretzky-less Oilers in scoring one year (>100 points) and the other he finished 2nd while winning another Cup.
So you agree Jagr is bad then???
That was my answer to the guy stating that actually.

Jagr scored more in a defensive era than Kurri in an offensive era.
That should tell you the whole story.

Kurri : 1398 points in 1251 games playing mostly in an all offense league and team (the highest scoring team ever). One Lady Byng.

Jagr : 1251 points in 969 games playing half his career in a defensive era with guys like Kip Miller, Jan Hrdina or an old Rob Brown by his side.
5 Art Rosses (!), 2 Pearsons, 1 Hart.

If you can't see Jagr is better than Kurri, I can't help you.
We'll have to disagree once again.

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Old
11-23-2003, 03:32 AM
  #94
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You are not being honest.

How many seasons was Jagr without an elite linemate really?

Up until 1998, he had Francis/Mario on his team. In 00/01 we saw the return of Mario.

The period in which he played with 'Hrdina and the likes' was a whopping 2 seasons. 2 of 14 seasons. That equals half? He wasn't on an island either, Kovalev, Lang and Straka helped him out. Might not have been on his line, but they prevented teams from focusing their defensive efforts on Jagr alone.


Jagr was a scoring machine. I already said that he will win the war of numbers.

You do realize that there is more to hockey than just scoring right?

Kurri can at least hold a candle to Jagr offensively. Certainly a ways back, but Kurri was a top-end scorer in his own right. Defensively though, Kurri mops the floor with Jagr.

Comparing awards is an unfair arguement. Kurri shared his career with Gretzky. Jagr was the 1st person not named Wayne or Mario to take home the Art Ross in 14 years. Can't deny him the Hart or Pearson, but offensive players have the advantage in those awards. Those staggering numbers are tempting.

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Old
11-23-2003, 03:44 AM
  #95
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Kurri was like Jere Lehtinen merged with Brett Hull

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Old
11-23-2003, 05:55 AM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCD
You are not being honest.

How many seasons was Jagr without an elite linemate really?

Up until 1998, he had Francis/Mario on his team. In 00/01 we saw the return of Mario.

The period in which he played with 'Hrdina and the likes' was a whopping 2 seasons. 2 of 14 seasons. That equals half? He wasn't on an island either, Kovalev, Lang and Straka helped him out. Might not have been on his line, but they prevented teams from focusing their defensive efforts on Jagr alone.


Jagr was a scoring machine. I already said that he will win the war of numbers.

You do realize that there is more to hockey than just scoring right?

Kurri can at least hold a candle to Jagr offensively. Certainly a ways back, but Kurri was a top-end scorer in his own right. Defensively though, Kurri mops the floor with Jagr.

Comparing awards is an unfair arguement. Kurri shared his career with Gretzky. Jagr was the 1st person not named Wayne or Mario to take home the Art Ross in 14 years. Can't deny him the Hart or Pearson, but offensive players have the advantage in those awards. Those staggering numbers are tempting.
I am being honest. Jagr's not as bad defensively as you're making him.
How many 100 points seasons did Kurri have after Gretz's departure? In an offensive era to boot!

Now how many 100 points seasons did Jagr have atfer Mario?
In a defensive era to boot!

Jagr is so much better offensively than Kurri it's not even funny.
And of course, Kurri is better defensively, but not by as much as you're making it.

I do compare individual awards, because you seem to forget how MANY Art Rosses Jagr won.
He's among the best players EVER.

People tend to be WAY too much influenced by his play in Washington than his whole career.
A little perspective is needed.
When all is said and done, Jagr will be arguable among the best 10 players ever to play the game, and without a doubt the best player ever to come out of Europe.

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Old
11-23-2003, 06:14 AM
  #97
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If I had to choose a pair for my team against the Martian All-Stars in a 7-game series, I might pick Gretz-Kurri.

If game 7 went to OT, I might want Mario-Jags on the ice.

I guess in a 4-on-4 situation, I'd definitely pick the Pittsburgh boys. In a 5-on-5 situation, I think Gretz might use the additional winger a tad better.

Not sure what all this means.

I would want Gretz centering Mario and Jagr if I could get it....I'm going back to bed.

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Old
11-23-2003, 06:19 AM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
I am being honest. Jagr's not as bad defensively as you're making him.
How many 100 points seasons did Kurri have after Gretz's departure? In an offensive era to boot!

Now how many 100 points seasons did Jagr have atfer Mario?
In a defensive era to boot!

Jagr is so much better offensively than Kurri it's not even funny.
And of course, Kurri is better defensively, but not by as much as you're making it.

I do compare individual awards, because you seem to forget how MANY Art Rosses Jagr won.
He's among the best players EVER.

People tend to be WAY too much influenced by his play in Washington than his whole career.
A little perspective is needed.
When all is said and done, Jagr will be arguable among the best 10 players ever to play the game, and without a doubt the best player ever to come out of Europe.
Top 10?

Off the top of my head: Gretzky, Potvin, Robinson, Hull, Mario, Hasek, Roy, Orr, Richard, Messier, Howe, Bourque, Trottier, Dionne, Yzerman, Espisito, Parent, Fuhr and Plante. With a minute of thought, it would be fairly easy to rattle off another 10.

Jagr is a HOFer and a great player, but take your own advice and try to have a little perspective. If you were old enough to appreciate Kurri, you would realize how off-base you are. Jagr is a poor defensive player, no question about it. He cherry picks and sandbags. Kurri was an exceptional defensive player, absolutely no doubt about it. The difference between the two offensively is dwarfed by the gap between them defensively.

As for Kurri's 100 point seasons, why don't you pause for a second and look up how many seasons he didn't have Wayne with him. I already mentioned it once...

Since you did ask. Jagr has a single season of >100 points when he wasn't on the same team as Mario or Francis. Exact same number as Kurri had without Wayne.

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Old
11-23-2003, 11:37 AM
  #99
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well this is going to be my first post in this thread i've created....

personally i would take jagr and lemieux simply becuase in today's nhl, they have the physical attributes to compete. lemieux is 6'4'' and has the perfect set of hands. jagr is 6'3'' but no one realizes that he weighs over 220+ pounds and is unbelievable strong on his skates. kurri is undeniably the best player defensively any team with lemieux + jagr would add a defensive forward on their wing. i just think lemieux + jagr would have a higher offensive potential even tho gretzky and kurri produced much more in a higher scoring era

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Old
11-23-2003, 12:08 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Kurri needed Gretzky to be on his side to exist as an NHL player.
Oh really now. I guess that's why Kurri had 102 pts in 88-89 in 76 games, 93 pts in 89-90 in 78 games without Gretzky, and 87 pts in 92-93 in 82 games when Gretzky only played 16 games because of his back injury.
Do some research before posting such comments.

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