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stars that disappointed in the NHL

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Old
10-10-2006, 02:09 AM
  #1
raffael3d
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stars that disappointed in the NHL

which international stars did disappoint the most in the past 20 years?
they have to be stars outside of the NHL, and didnt have a big breakthrough in the NHL after coming to it.


my pick> Vladimir Krutov

one of the best players I have ever seen in the 80ties. Unable to adjust to NHL, the political change and the new free world was too much for him.

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10-10-2006, 03:13 AM
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Nalyd Psycho
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The biggest problem for Krutov was the Canucks coach was heavily anti-Russian and never used him properly, so he just left, figuring the NHL wasn't worth the stress.

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Old
10-10-2006, 10:51 AM
  #3
Todd Shishler
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Dopita was always a big star overseas but didn't do much in the NHL with his chances in Philadelphia and Edmonton.

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10-10-2006, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
The biggest problem for Krutov was the Canucks coach was heavily anti-Russian and never used him properly, so he just left, figuring the NHL wasn't worth the stress.
It was far more than that. Krutov was horribly out of shape. If it was just because Bob McCammon was "heavily anti-Russian," Krutov would have gone elsewhere and returned to his prior level of dominance. I remember he was cut by a Swiss league team, and wound up playing the final years of his career with a lower-level Swedish team.

Sergei Starikov was another catastrophe on ice. I remember Hockey Digest, in their report card of the first Soviet players who came to North America in 1989-1990, said of Starikov (paraphrasing): "When the NHL looks at bringing over more Soviet players, Starikov's name will come up as an example of why not to do it again."

A lot of the Soviet stars who came to North America in the late 80s/early 90s had trouble adjusting. Krutov and Starikov were busts. Kasatonov had his moments, but was essentially a bit player after his first three years, and bounced around the league. Fetisov was very good, but not one of the NHL's best, and nowhere near as dominant as he was in the USSR/on the international stage. While age might be used as an excuse for Fetisov, keep in mind that many of the NHL's top defencemen were of a similar age, and most of those defencemen remained among the elite until they were 40.

Makarov won the Calder in 1990, forcing a rule change that capped the age to 25. While his regular season numbers were usually impressive, he really struggled in the playoffs. Larionov enjoyed the most success among the veteran Soviets who arrived in 1989, but his first two years in Vancouver weren't really inspiring, and he was a healthy scratch early in his third season until his play caught fire. But at the end of the 1991-92 season, the Canucks let him go to Switzerland for a contract that amounted to about $1 million Cdn. per year. At the time, most people in the game thought Larionov had played his last NHL contest. Who knew?


Last edited by God Bless Canada: 10-10-2006 at 11:22 AM.
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10-10-2006, 01:00 PM
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My picks would be Vladimir Krutov, who was a bust. Other players have come into the league and were pegged as the next superstars but never really rose to greatness or at least notoriety.... Radek Bonk was supposed to be a superstar but it just never really happened.... same with Valery Kamensky who was very good for a while but never really rose to an elite level the way many had projected at the time....and what about Petr Nedved, by now he should have had a storied career but where did he go wrong.... good players who should have been great.

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10-10-2006, 01:24 PM
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Ludwig Fell Down
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Originally Posted by trevchar1971 View Post
My picks would be Vladimir Krutov, who was a bust. Other players have come into the league and were pegged as the next superstars but never really rose to greatness or at least notoriety.... Radek Bonk was supposed to be a superstar but it just never really happened.... same with Valery Kamensky who was very good for a while but never really rose to an elite level the way many had projected at the time....and what about Petr Nedved, by now he should have had a storied career but where did he go wrong.... good players who should have been great.
Good chioces. I would add Alexander Semak to this list as well. I thought he was going to be a star. He had one good year with the Devils and was never able to return to that level.

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Old
10-10-2006, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
A lot of the Soviet stars who came to North America in the late 80s/early 90s had trouble adjusting. Krutov and Starikov were busts. Kasatonov had his moments, but was essentially a bit player after his first three years, and bounced around the league. Fetisov was very good, but not one of the NHL's best, and nowhere near as dominant as he was in the USSR/on the international stage. While age might be used as an excuse for Fetisov, keep in mind that many of the NHL's top defencemen were of a similar age, and most of those defencemen remained among the elite until they were 40.
The transition was 10x harder for the first Soviets that came over. Plus, I don't think the NHL understood yet the implications of a 'transition period' - or that one was even needed. Heck, at first, many of Fetisov's and Larionov's own teammates didn't even accept them.

As for age, I don't know if its an excuse but due to intensive training 11 months out of the year, Soviet players were 'done' by the age of 30 - or at least no longer capable of being elite anymore.
Kharlamov was worn down and no longer good enough for the national team before he died at 32. Maltsev at 32, Petrov at 33; Vasiliev at 31.
Ragulin and Starshinov were benchwarming old men during the Summit Series at the ages of 30 and 32 respectively.

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Old
10-11-2006, 01:01 AM
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Jiri Dopita, Best Player Not in the NHL!!!!!!111111111

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10-11-2006, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
The biggest problem for Krutov was the Canucks coach was heavily anti-Russian and never used him properly, so he just left, figuring the NHL wasn't worth the stress.
Actually, Krutov's biggest problem was his penchant for the foot-long hot dog. I can hardly blame a man that was forced to eat Borscht 3 meals a day for 27 years - I would go on a hot dog eating binge of epic proportions once I tasted freedom, too.


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10-11-2006, 04:25 AM
  #10
Nalyd Psycho
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Very true about Krutov and his lack of conditioning. I just don't like how he gets picked on in these threads. He played well in an uncomfortable situation where he was faced with distractions he'd never faced before. Did he dissapoint? Yes. Was he horrid? No.

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10-11-2006, 06:53 AM
  #11
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Old
10-11-2006, 11:57 AM
  #12
Troy Gamble
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Very true about Krutov and his lack of conditioning. I just don't like how he gets picked on in these threads. He played well in an uncomfortable situation where he was faced with distractions he'd never faced before. Did he dissapoint? Yes. Was he horrid? No.
I agree that Krutov gets a bad rap from Canucks fans. He had 34 points in 61 games in his one season and was considered a dismal failure. Larionov had 44 points in 71 games and was treated well. Perhaps it was their personas more than anything. Larionov never game any indication that he was having trouble adapting to North America, although I have to think he must have had some difficulty with it. Krutov's problems, on the other hand, were well documented and given the expectations in Vancouver at the time it's no mystery why the fans wanted to ride him out of town on a rail.

Expectations really were out of whack for them. To Canucks fans at the time the addition of Larionov and Krutov was being viewed as adding the Russian versions of Gretzky and Messier (perhaps not quite that high, but much was expected). There was never really any chance either of them would measure up to that standard and the colossal underachievment of Krutov sealed his fate.

For him it was a case of wrong team at wrong time. If a 29-year-old Russian star came to North America now I suspect the expectations would still be too high, but there would be a much better support network in place, with countrymen playing in every NHL city and the acceptance of European players now much stronger. Would Krutov thrive today? Probably not, but I have no doubt he would fare better.

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10-13-2006, 01:01 PM
  #13
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Jorgen Jonsson (brother to Kenny). One of Sweden´s best player in several WC Tournaments, and probably the best two-way player in Europe. But he was fairly mediocre in NY Islanders and Anaheim, and moved back to Sweden and Farjestad.


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Old
10-15-2006, 12:37 PM
  #14
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Do injuries exempt a player from being considered a disappointment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Actually, Krutov's biggest problem was his penchant for the foot-long hot dog. I can hardly blame a man that was forced to eat Borscht 3 meals a day for 27 years - I would go on a hot dog eating binge of epic proportions once I tasted freedom, too.
If you'd ever tried homemade borscht, you'd never choose hot dogs...

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10-15-2006, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Actually, Krutov's biggest problem was his penchant for the foot-long hot dog. I can hardly blame a man that was forced to eat Borscht 3 meals a day for 27 years - I would go on a hot dog eating binge of epic proportions once I tasted freedom, too.
If I had to eat bland Soviet food and came to North America and made big bucks I wouldn't be eating crappy fast food hotdogs but glorious expensive meals at restaurnats with fresh steak, fresh fruit etc, etc. I might still get fat and not be in shape but it wouldn't be from eating crappy junk food.

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Old
10-15-2006, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
It was far more than that. Krutov was horribly out of shape. If it was just because Bob McCammon was "heavily anti-Russian," Krutov would have gone elsewhere and returned to his prior level of dominance. I remember he was cut by a Swiss league team, and wound up playing the final years of his career with a lower-level Swedish team.
Only if you believe the bumph being generated by the Canucks (led by Burkie). You need to evaluate the propaganda being generated and compare it to the facts.

However at the arbitration hearing it was clear there was no verifiable evidence Krutov was not in shape hence the Canucks lost both the transfer fee arbitration and paid up to settle Krutov's salary arbitration case.

In fact if you look at points per game and points per minute played, Krutov was amongst the team leaders in forwards. Both he and Larionov had massive problems with Bob McCammon who was a noted Sovietphobe.

The Canucks initially were not going to bring Larionov back for a second season the same as krutov but a lack of NHL centre material changed that plan. The Canucks had even quit paying Larionov's transfer fees like Krutov, as was put into evidence at the arbitration hearing.

Here is an excerpt from the transcript of the arbitration hearing reprinted in the Vancouver Province:
Quote:
Edited transcripts of Vancouver attorney Randy Wittchen, representing the Soviets, cross-examining Pat Quinn on circumstances of club missing agreed-upon transfer payments to Soviets for Igor Larionov.

Wittchen: Are you aware that there were problems with the November (1991) payment with Larionov?

Quinn: No.

Wittchen: Were you aware of a newspaper article that appeared in Vancouver Province December 31?

Quinn: Now that you mention it, Burke did make it known to me. And apparently Faminoff, through a local reporter, indicated that there was a problem with the payment.

Wittchen (introducing Province story as evidence): This is a report from Mr. (Tony) Gallagher of The Province dated December 31, 1991 . . . Are you aware that one of your officials of your organization on January 1, 1992 gave an interview to another reporter (Vancouver Sun reporter Elliott Pap) that in fact this was untrue, all payments were up to date on Larionov?

Quinn: It was our assumption that we were on time; I don't do the accounting, I don't stay on top of each cheque that goes out.

Wittchen: This direction to your bank, I notice your name appears here but not your signature. Can you identify the signatures that are on here?

Quinn: One is (director of finance) Carlos Mascarenhas and the other is Burke.

Wittchen: In fact on Dec. 31, 1991 the Vancouver Canucks were in arrears is that correct?

Quinn: Yes.

Wittchen: I will suggest to you that the only reason this payment was made is because it was very embarrassing at this hearing.

Quinn: I disagree with that. We have messed up on payment in June (1990) and we messed up here . . . the fact that you have suggested we weren't going to be paying our debt is offensive.

Wittchen: This is for the amount of $206,250. What does that represent?

Quinn: A lot of money.

Wittchen: . . . Do you know what schedule of payments that represents?

Quinn: I assume the final ones according to the schedule.

Wittchen: If you look at the transfer fee agreement there are certain schedule fees, and the schedule of fees are July 10, 1991, Nov. 10, 1991, Jan. 10, 1992 and March 10, 1992.

Quinn: November was missed. What does Gallagher or Faminoff say?

Wittchen: The information that we had is that two payments, the July (1990) and November payments, have been missed, were late, hadn't been made on time. But interestingly enough this (the Canucks' fee transfer) seems to be for more than is due and owing. . . . Does that not suggest that this was a pre-payment of the March 1992 payment?

Quinn: It appears likely.

Wittchen: I will suggest to you that the only reason these payments were made was in response to that newspaper article and to rehabilitate what had gone on with Larionov whom you admitted has played fine. You haven't had a problem . . . The first four (payments) were made in a timely fashion, is that correct?

Quinn: To my knowledge, yes. I was made aware of this story by Gallagher, I believe I was in Los Angeles at the time it came out.
The arbitrator had little problem dismissing Quinn's protestations (and credibility) out of hand and and nailing the Canucks to a wall to the tune of $1.3 million plus.

As the Vancouver Sun reported at the time:
Quote:
Quinn called the arbitration loss "devastating" and "the sourest thing that could have ever happened."

The Canucks received the final ruling from Swedish arbitrator Dr. J. Gillis Wetter on Wednesday and Quinn confirmed the bill is in the neighborhood of $1.3 million or "maybe a little less." Quinn wouldn't discuss any other aspects of the ruling, saying he hadn't had time to pore over its contents.

Vancouver lawyer Bill Faminoff, who successfully represented a federation of Soviet groups at the arbitration, said the only matter to be determined is interest costs.

"We are currently discussing some calculations with the Vancouver Canucks with respect to interest," said Faminoff. "There are no (other) figures in dispute. Yes, it is in the ballpark of $1.3 million."
Basic rule with Quinn and Burke is to check out the facts and ignore the bluff, bluster and blarney being peddled for public consumption.

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Old
10-15-2006, 03:24 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cup 2007 Sens Rule! View Post
If I had to eat bland Soviet food and came to North America and made big bucks I wouldn't be eating crappy fast food hotdogs but glorious expensive meals at restaurnats with fresh steak, fresh fruit etc, etc. I might still get fat and not be in shape but it wouldn't be from eating crappy junk food.
Can you imagine all the donairs you would want to eat?

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Old
10-15-2006, 05:35 PM
  #18
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Actually, Krutov's biggest problem was his penchant for the foot-long hot dog. I can hardly blame a man that was forced to eat Borscht 3 meals a day for 27 years - I would go on a hot dog eating binge of epic proportions once I tasted freedom, too.
Not according to the evidence tendered during arbitrations - that is why the Canucks had to pay up.

You need to distinguish propaganda along with the bluff, bluster and blarney beng put out by the Canucks from fact. there was no verifiable eveidence that he was out of condition and in fact his playing weight was exactly what it had been in his previous three seasons with Central Red Army as the Canucks were forced to concede during the arbitration. The lack of conditioning claim went nowhere when subjected to examination by an independent third party who punted the canucks out of the hearing room wearing a US$1.3 million award.

If you recall the reason Krutov had to leave part way through the season was because he had to return get visas for his family so that they could join him in Canada afer they experienced some problems with the Canadian embassy in Moscow. He was reportedly a little ticked that he did not get more support from the Canucks in this situation.

Also unlike Calgary who placed Makharov and his family with a Russian speaking family so his wife and children could adapt more easily, the Canucks provided no such support for Krutov and his family.

Do you recall the Canucks leaving Bure cooling his heels in LA and then forcing him to pay part of his own transfer fee before signing him to a contract. That idiocy sowed the seeds of dissatisfaction with Bure which would culminate in his trade request.

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Old
10-15-2006, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Very true about Krutov and his lack of conditioning. I just don't like how he gets picked on in these threads. He played well in an uncomfortable situation where he was faced with distractions he'd never faced before. Did he dissapoint? Yes. Was he horrid? No.
I agree except for the part about his lack of conditioning. When put to the proof in arbitration, the Canucks were unable to make out that claim.

Remember in those days the Canucks basically owned or controlled a good bit of the media and made it their business to try to isolate any sports reporter/columnist who did not sing the company song - Tony Gallagher, Mike Beamish, Dan Russell, etc.

Remember Burkie trying to get Gallagher fired and the editor in chief (Brian Butters) of the Province taking the front page to respond to the Canucks letter (which he re-printed ) demanding Gallagher be removed from the hockey beat. Butters wrote that he did not tell the Canucks who to play in goal and they did not tell him who he would assign to write about the Canucks. As Jim Taylor pointed out in a hilarious column only Brian Burke could make Tony Gallagher into a sympathetic character.

The Canucks tried to ban Mike Beamish from the team bus/plane and the dressing room for what they saw as negative coverage. That one was resolved by a complaint by the sports reporters' association to the NHL.

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Old
10-15-2006, 06:27 PM
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I agree except for the part about his lack of conditioning. When put to the proof in arbitration, the Canucks were unable to make out that claim.

Remember in those days the Canucks basically owned or controlled a good bit of the media and made it their business to try to isolate any sports reporter/columnist who did not sing the company song - Tony Gallagher, Mike Beamish, Dan Russell, etc.

Remember Burkie trying to get Gallagher fired and the editor in chief (Brian Butters) of the Province taking the front page to respond to the Canucks letter (which he re-printed ) demanding Gallagher be removed from the hockey beat. Butters wrote that he did not tell the Canucks who to play in goal and they did not tell him who he would assign to write about the Canucks. As Jim Taylor pointed out in a hilarious column only Brian Burke could make Tony Gallagher into a sympathetic character.

The Canucks tried to ban Mike Beamish from the team bus/plane and the dressing room for what they saw as negative coverage. That one was resolved by a complaint by the sports reporters' association to the NHL.

Krutov's lack of conditioning is well documented. One teammate recalls how he rigged up a Ferrid Bueller-like contraption in his room so he didn't have to get out of bed to turn off the light. He stopped at 7-11 (or whatever convienience store is in BC) before and after practice and bought junk food and Big Gulps of soda. He was also nicknamed Vladimir "Crouton".

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10-15-2006, 06:34 PM
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As far as Krutov goes, i heard horror stories about how when Russian guys first came into the league, they were often taunted/ignored by teamates. Like it was junior high or something.

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Old
10-15-2006, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cup 2007 Sens Rule! View Post
If I had to eat bland Soviet food and came to North America and made big bucks I wouldn't be eating crappy fast food hotdogs but glorious expensive meals at restaurnats with fresh steak, fresh fruit etc, etc. I might still get fat and not be in shape but it wouldn't be from eating crappy junk food.
Shows how little you know about "bland Soviet food". The average citizen, yet alone a star hockey player, had all the fresh steak and fruit juice he or she could possibly want. Its the highly unhealthy (although sometimes quite tasty) North American junk food that was lacking in the Soviet Union. Krutov was deprived of crappy junk food, especially when he was forced to eat wholesome nutritious food when in training with CSKA or the national team, and thus binged on it when it became availble to him.

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10-15-2006, 06:50 PM
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Throw Morozov on that list then as he really never lived up to the billing of best player outside of the NHL. He had 1 20 goal season with the pens and thats when it didn't count for anything. You could see the flashes of greatness but he never carried his dominiant play in the RSL (and still dominant) over to the North American game.

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10-15-2006, 06:53 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Pfft View Post

If you'd ever tried homemade borscht, you'd never choose hot dogs...

Well first off, the sausage portion of a North American hotdog was readily availble in abudance throughout the Soviet Union; one could even find a traditional sausage-in-a-bun variation that somewhat resembled a true 7/11 hotdog (although these were never a popular food and therefore weren't sold all over the place). Secondly, although hotdogs are generally disgusting and unhealthy no matter the country where they are manufactured (I prefer Russian hotdogs personally, but would generally avoid eating a hotdog in either hemisphere)... I would certainly take a hotdog over a bowl of borscht. Not that Krutov really had to eat it, but borscht is absolutely vile stuff as far as I'm concerned.

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10-15-2006, 07:12 PM
  #25
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Borscht

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barszcz

In the words on Leon Phelps, "Yeah, that is nasty!"

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