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Messier is Gone and we are winning

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Old
10-07-2006, 06:04 PM
  #1
Yizee*
 
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Messier is Gone and we are winning

do you guys ever sit down and realize that we are winning because messier is finally gone? we are predicted to win the stanley cup by guys like Barry Melrose and Larry Brooks - and with messier here we would be nowhere again

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Old
10-07-2006, 06:55 PM
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NYR2
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I refuse to believe they are winning because Messier is gone.

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10-07-2006, 08:21 PM
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That is as simplistic as saying we lost because Messier was here. I know that's what you mean, but it was wrong then and it's wrong now.

We're winning because the team is being run in a totally different manner and it is not because of Messier, but because everyone, from ownership through Sather and Maloney to the organisation down in the minors have put their focus on creating a winning system.

You cannot put this down to one man, no matter how much of a touchstone he is or was.

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Old
10-07-2006, 09:34 PM
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This is the dumbest thread in the history of hfboard.com. when messier was here, we had a totally different team under a totally different NHL system. You are either a new fan or you are 12 years old, because I can't reason how some real Rangers fan would have the balls to post something like this here. Our success has absolutly zero to do with Messier being here or not being here.


Last edited by SingnBluesOnBroadway: 10-07-2006 at 09:53 PM.
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Old
10-07-2006, 10:11 PM
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<-----try looking me in the eye and saying that punk....

.


Last edited by SingnBluesOnBroadway: 10-07-2006 at 10:22 PM.
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Old
10-07-2006, 10:24 PM
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Sonny Lamateena
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If Messier was the cause of all the Rangers problems why did they lose when he was in Vancouver?

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Old
10-07-2006, 10:26 PM
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bad thread...

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Old
10-07-2006, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny Lamateena View Post
If Messier was the cause of all the Rangers problems why did they lose when he was in Vancouver?
Why did Vancouver start to lose when he got there, and win when he left?

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10-07-2006, 10:33 PM
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Come on look at the roster, the coaching staff, the new rules, the sun the moon...

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Old
10-07-2006, 10:37 PM
  #10
NYR2
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Originally Posted by Sonny Lamateena View Post
If Messier was the cause of all the Rangers problems why did they lose when he was in Vancouver?
Still his fault.

I still don't get why people think he was so awful for this team. Probably never will. There were far bigger problems than Mess.


Last edited by SingnBluesOnBroadway: 10-08-2006 at 07:17 AM.
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Old
10-07-2006, 10:39 PM
  #11
bcrt2000
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Originally Posted by Marlloon View Post
Why did Vancouver start to lose when he got there, and win when he left?
Theres something called a rebuilding process. Messier was there to lead the young kids.

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Old
10-08-2006, 12:17 AM
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I am thoroughly disgusted by this.

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10-08-2006, 02:50 AM
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Why does this same guy have to bring this same topic up on a monthly basis. It's extremely annoying and should be stopped. I don't think he posts anything but anti-messier things.

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Old
10-08-2006, 03:02 AM
  #14
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I'll humor this guy and give both pro and con arguements to his statement..just because I'm bored lol:

Con:

The lockout was the best thing to happen to the Rangers since they acquired Messier and eventually won a cup. The team realized that they weren't going to be able to pay all these huge salaries, and with the cap in the rear view mirror, broke up the team. They finally realized that what they were doing not only wasn't working, but wouldn't be possible in the future NHL. They traded away everyone they could and got picks and prospects up the wazoo. They kept Jagr because..well..he's the best player on Earth.

Messier was the face of the team, periord. If Messier decided to play last year, he would have had the C on his chest. Would they have had the same success as they did last year? I think they would have.

The team was different in the areas of coaching, players, and mentality. From the start of camp, Renny instilled in these players that hard work, and only hard work, would be acceptable. Messier was always a hard worker. He never had an ego. He never demanded playing time, or had it out with a coach. He would not have been a major offensive contributor, but he would have acted as a teacher and a mentor for the younger guys. Jagr flourished due to Renney's system, and that wouldn't have been effected by the presence of Messier.

basic point: The mentalitly of the team changed, which led to their success. Messier's presence would not have had a negative impact whatsoever.

Pro:

oh wait...I don't have a pro for this guy...sorry man..hahaha

this post would have been much more profound had I not ingested about 30 adult beverages this evening.

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Old
10-08-2006, 03:56 AM
  #15
ish
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I happen to agree with the original post. I'm not saying we're winning [I]because[I] Mess is gone but he certainly wasn't doing us any favors from 2000-2004. You think a guy like Ortmeyer is gonna step up and become a leader with bad *** veteran/legend Messier around? No way. He was holding us back.

As much good as he did for this team in his first tour (91-97) he almost did as much negative in his second stint as a Ranger (00-04). It's not good when "The Captain" is your laziest player. It's not good when "The Captain" is sitting with the GM slamming hot dogs while injured. Great example he was.

For the record, I am 25 years old and am fully aware of the feats Messier pulled off for us. When I was thirteen Messier was god but as we both got older I realized he was using us. One of my greatest fears regarding the future of the Rangers is letting Messier have any further influence whatsoever on them. Be it GM, coach, scout, whatever I think bringing him back would be a disaster.

We were going nowhere until he was gone. It hasn't been only his departure (obviously it's been way better coaching, Jagr's passion, and Lundqvist's play) that got us on the right track, but make no mistake, we'd be nowhere if he was still playing for us.

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Old
10-08-2006, 06:09 AM
  #16
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Messier not being around allows the other players on the Rangers to stop deferring to Messier.It's their team.Not Messier's.If Mark was still playing,this team would still be stuck in the past.Just like bringing back Leetch would have been.Tom Renney and his assistants have a much easier job w/o Messier around.They can run their practices anyway they want with the full complement of players skating.Do you know how many times Messier didn't skate the day after a game while everyone else skated?New leadership on the team has developed and stepped forward.If Messier was still around,the other players would be leery of stepping on his toes

It's about the Rangers.Not about Messier or his ego

T-E-A-M

R-A-N-G-E-R-S

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Old
10-08-2006, 08:53 AM
  #17
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Look at this season's...

and last season's roster and compare that to the last few of Messier's...consistent goaltending and few injuries. Had Lindros stayed healthy, a couple of Mess' teams would've made the playoffs. Had the Rangers had a goaltender who could've played an entire season well, they would've made the playoffs. To blame this team's playoffs failures on Mess is simply saying something without examining the facts.

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Old
10-08-2006, 10:20 AM
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Sonny Lamateena
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlloon View Post
Why did Vancouver start to lose when he got there, and win when he left?
I don't know what you're talking about, Vancouver missed the playoffs the year before Messier arrived, so they didn't 'just start losing when he got there'. They did make improvements Messier's last year in Vancouver and although they didn't make the playoffs, players like Jovanovski and Naslund credited Messier with helping to show them how to get there.

The Rangers problems were not one player, the team had no defensive system until last season, combine that with no number one goalie and it's impossible to win. Ownership, management and coaches and players were all responsible for a vartiety of reasons. Just look at how many players much closer to their prime didn't deliver what was expected of them for a variety of reasons (Bure, Lafontaine, Richter, Fleury, Lindros, Nedved, Kovalev, etc). This team is winning now because ownership finally allowed management to blow the team up and rebuild from scratch, the salary cap forces Sather to use his brain instead of blank cheques, Renney is allowed to coach the team the way he wants to (no walkie talkie to Glen Sather during games), a healthy infusion of hungry young players from a restocked farm system, an elite #1 goalie, and the leagues best offensive player. To think a 40+ year old legend kept this team from winning is just wrong.

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Old
10-08-2006, 10:50 AM
  #19
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I thought we had to let Messier go in order to start afresh, but his being gone in NOT the reason we've become a better team.

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Old
10-08-2006, 11:13 AM
  #20
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If you guys don't believe Messier not being here isn't a plus,then I don't know what to say.Talking about the culture and mind set of the team.Jagr wouldn't come out of his shell and embraced the mantle as the team leader/spokesman if Messier was around.It was always going to be his room and his team as long he was around

Messier never played in a playoff game in the last seven seasons of his career.That's a fact

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10-08-2006, 11:33 AM
  #21
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Its obvious that tools like Yizee and Rangerboy have no concept. The problem with the Rangers teams from 2000-2004 started in net. Once Richter started with his injury problems he was never consistently dominant in net. How many games did we lose in that era because our goalie got outplayed? How many games did we lose last season because King Henrik got outplayed? Big difference. Now lets go on to the d. We had the likes of Malcontent, Krappa, Urinov, Driver and the Sucky Hatcher manning our blue line during that era. Guess what, even at his worst last year Port-a-Poti was better than those guys.

Now, how did Messier being here during that era have any impact on those factors?? I will be waiting patiently for an answer to that question. Lets see how you try to spin this!

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10-08-2006, 11:54 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyRangers View Post
Its obvious that tools like Yizee and Rangerboy have no concept. The problem with the Rangers teams from 2000-2004 started in net. Once Richter started with his injury problems he was never consistently dominant in net. How many games did we lose in that era because our goalie got outplayed? How many games did we lose last season because King Henrik got outplayed? Big difference. Now lets go on to the d. We had the likes of Malcontent, Krappa, Urinov, Driver and the Sucky Hatcher manning our blue line during that era. Guess what, even at his worst last year Port-a-Poti was better than those guys.

Now, how did Messier being here during that era have any impact on those factors?? I will be waiting patiently for an answer to that question. Lets see how you try to spin this!
The truth of the matter, JR, is that it lies somewhere between both points of view. For years Messier was demanding icetime of a 1st and 2nd line center even when his skill had deminished to that of a 3rd liner. Furthermore, it's obvious that the team could not turn the corner into a new era as long as Messier was demanding pride of place. These were both contributing factors to the awful state of the Rangers during that period. If you don't see that it contributed to the team's downfall, you are guilty of blind loyalty - don't get me wrong, I understand where it comes from, but it's wrongheaded.

Yes, the problems in net contributed. As did the poor D-play and the merry-go-round of high priced hired guns. But so did Messier staying on longer than he should have.

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Old
10-08-2006, 12:23 PM
  #23
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I started reading this thread, and I just threw up the taco bell I apparently got last night when i was blackout drunk (cause there's wrappers all over my room, and it looked like a spicy gordita crunch). This is rediculous, just another opportunity for this guy to preach his anti-messier rhetoric.

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10-08-2006, 12:23 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
The truth of the matter, JR, is that it lies somewhere between both points of view. For years Messier was demanding icetime of a 1st and 2nd line center even when his skill had deminished to that of a 3rd liner. Furthermore, it's obvious that the team could not turn the corner into a new era as long as Messier was demanding pride of place. These were both contributing factors to the awful state of the Rangers during that period. If you don't see that it contributed to the team's downfall, you are guilty of blind loyalty - don't get me wrong, I understand where it comes from, but it's wrongheaded.

Yes, the problems in net contributed. As did the poor D-play and the merry-go-round of high priced hired guns. But so did Messier staying on longer than he should have.
You are correct in that Messier got more ice time then his play warranted. However, if that was the only flaw on those teams we still would have survived, made the playoffs and maybe even won a round or two. The problems on d and in the net more than outweighed Mess's ice time and his use. To ignore those and blame those teams failings on Mess is foolish.

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10-08-2006, 12:45 PM
  #25
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He got a lot of ice time, but...

unfortunately few players on those team were stepping it up and playing it well. This team's goaltending was horrific, mostly. It's defensemen were below average. There was no forward who can consistently score. Messier also payed on lines with guys like Lundmark, Tripp, Toms, Ulmer and others...you don't think this team would've been successful with Mess centering Ward and Hossa last season, while Lundvist stood on his head and Jagr playing well?

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