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Old
10-11-2006, 08:21 PM
  #551
Son of Steinbrenner
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I'm reposting this for the third time in hopes that the anti-Rozsival crowd will actually learn something instead of just posting non-sense about the guy and his season last year...This actually kills any argument about Rozsvial season last year...KILLS IT..

Again from blueshirt bulletin http://ordinaryleastsquare.typepad.c.../08/index.html


Michal Rozsival led Ranger defensemen with 30 points last season. He led all Rangers in ice time with 22-plus minutes, a low total for a top-pair defenseman. And of course he tied Wade Redden for the league lead in plus-minus with +35. And he accomplished that despite having never been given that level of responsibility during his four previous NHL seasons. Nevertheless, when Rozsival re-signed yesterday for two years at $4.2 million ($1.9 this season, $2.3 next season), reaction among Ranger fans was decidedly mixed, with a heavy dose of strong sentiment against the soon to be 28 year old blueliner.

The two biggest knocks against Rozsival are that his plus-minus stats are the result of riding the coattails of Jaromir Jagr and Henrik Lundqvist, and that he is a giveaway machine. As far as giveaways go, any puck-moving top-unit defenseman will inevitably turn the puck over -- Chris Pronger led the league with 110, Sergei Zubov and Brian Rafalski were the next two right around 100 each, and the likes of Zdeno Chara, Bryan McCabe, Rob Blake, Chris Chelios, and eighteen other defensemen were tagged with more giveaways than the 65 Rozsival was charged with. The 6'2-204 Ranger even outhit the 6'6-220 Pronger by 79 to 65.

Being part of a high-scoring first unit on a successful team can't help but improve your plus-minus, but that unit could not possibly be as successful as they were with an omnipresent defenseman who stinks as bad as many fans think Rozsival does. Jagr had 71 even strength points, yet the opposition didn't even get half as much back on him, with Jagr, not noted for his defense, ending up +34. Rozsival was just about equal to Jagr at +35. Over in San Jose, Joe Thornton went +31 while scoring 74 even strength points, yet no defenseman was more than +17 -- and that guy, Tom Preissing, was already +4 when Thornton arrived. No other Shark defenseman was more than +10.

Rozsival didn't even play exclusively with Jagr -- Rozsival played 519 more shifts than Jagr's 1800-plus. If he was really that much of a horror show, he had at least that many chances (two out of every seven shifts) to be more of a minus player without the benefit of backing up the Rangers' leading scorer. In point of fact, Rozsival had nearly identical plus-minus stats with and without Jagr -- overall, he was +18 with Jagr, +17 without Jagr (on the ice for 35 even strength goals for and 17 against at the same time as Jagr, 35 goals for and 18 against with players other than Jagr).


Of course the ready answer to this is Henrik Lundqvist. Sure, Rozsival was better when Lundqvist was in net -- so was everyone. Yet Rozsival was +9 in Weekes's first 30 games before going -3 in Weekes's last two starts during the season-ending losing streak. On the flip side, in the nine games in which Lundqvist was not at his best, giving up four of more goals, Rozsival was +3, going minus in only one of those games despite the Rangers being outscored 42-22 in going 2-6-1. Weekes gave up four or more ten times, with Rozsival even overall, +3 (with never a minus game) in the first eight of those before going (as already noted) -3 in Weekes's last two starts (the Rangers were outscored 44-32 in those games in going 1-7-2).

Without question, Rozsival is prone to error and is not exactly a bulwark in front of his own net. But when you put it in its proper context -- a career 4-5-6 D stepping up to be a successful team's #1 defenseman and going home as the league's co-leader in plus-minus -- how can you not like what he did? Ranger management decided that they didn't need to pay top dollar for a proven #1 and thrust Rozsival into the role, and he did a decent job of it. To crucify him despite all that for his occasional misadventures, which even a Chris Pronger type has, is plain and simply -- unfair.

News reports today on the signing focus not on Rozsival, but on Brian Leetch, who now has no place on the Ranger blueline corps and is no longer a candidate for re-signing -- see the News and Post. Also a brief report in the Journal News.

Late update: Rozsival's penalties appear to be a problem for some fans. Rozsival took 45 minors last season -- a single minor in 37 games, two to three minors in six other games. Two of his penalties put the Rangers down two men, six of them negated Ranger power plays, one was coincidental. 31 occurred with the score within one goal either way, with the Rangers ending up 15-11-3 in those games. Three times the opposition scored the game winner on the resulting power plays, two of those true winners late in games (one in OT -- the infamous DOG vs. Pitt after Malik's unsportsmanlike). Four times the opposition scored equalizers, two ultimately ending in losses (both by shootout). Once the opposition scored the clincher late in a one-goal game. In three other losses, having to kill a penalty or losing a power play helped keep the Rangers from avoiding a narrow loss. Every Ranger defenseman had a similar experience last season with penalties.

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10-11-2006, 09:33 PM
  #552
94now
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
But how do you bring along a guy like Dawes? Isn't one to expect the associated growing pains of a 21 year old? And it's an adjustment. It's not easy being a winger on a line with a centerman who last season dished-out two helpers. When he's not on that line, he's with a centerman who dished-out three helpers last season. So at the same time, I question my expectations of Dawes in this scenario and given his role, am just looking for a guy to gradually become accustomed to the speed and be able to get some opportunistic shots off.
May be so, but I do not see this happening. Sometimes you can through someone into the waters to see if one can swim. That is not the best way to bring in the hockey player, though. It is not, really. The worst thing you can do is to bring someone into dysfunctional environment.
You take a well established line, promote/trade/retire one of the winger/center and place youngster in his place. The other two guys should be able tell where the linemate is with their eyes shut. All they need to learn is the new kid habits and help him out to know them the way they know each other. In this case the kid's talents will flourish while other guys will read the benefits of overall production/efficiency increase. Is that what Dawes sees? He is chasing all those few minutes he's got. That what you do to show everyone around that "this fellow is no good for us". (Stupidity often look like conspiracy to me).


Last edited by 94now: 10-12-2006 at 07:24 AM.
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10-11-2006, 09:38 PM
  #553
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
Can you walk through doorways with a head that big? ..

Doctor? You? Oh, my... Why here?...

Seriously, Larry, trade is inevidable. We've got no Jarg. We do not have replacement for Ruccin and Ort/Moore. Cullien didn't make a steady convincing impression. He may not be that small, but he acts like one. Hollweg cannot carry the line alone. These are big holes. It is not just 3rd game. It is a continuation of pre-season very much, so it is 8 games. I would use Dawes, but later on. For now he has to be exchanged for Dubunski to finish the October experiments before we trade for 2C.


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10-11-2006, 11:02 PM
  #554
Larry Melnyk
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Doctor? You? Oh, my... Why here?...

Seriously, Larry, trade is inevidable. We've got no Jarg. We do not have replacement for Ruccin and Ort/Moore. Cullien didn't make a steady convincing impression. He may not be that small, but he acts like one. Hollweg cannot carry the line alone. These are big holes. It is not just 3rd game. It is a continuation of pre-season very much, so it is 8 games. I would use Dawes, but later on. For now he has to be exchanged for Dubunski to finish the October experiments before we trade for 2C.

We agree on some things, but can;'t agree with any of this....We still have Jagr and that will soon become apparent..Rucchin was a TOTAL WASTE and is easily replaced by Cullen, even if I'm not high on Cullen as a 2nd C.......We agree totally on ORTS but miss MOORE only because it forces Hollweg ot play C right now....Calling up one of Immo/Dubinsky to play C with Hall and Dawes/Hossa and sliding Betts between Holly and Ward would be an easy simple move that could reap dividends ...IMO, of course...

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10-11-2006, 11:26 PM
  #555
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Is that so? Let me play against your team Mr. Head Coach. By simple puck movement I will make your perfectly positioned defencemen being each well out of position most of the time. They will have to show tons of hustle to keep up with that. In fact I would make them hustle almost to death, but my guys will score prior.
Now, let's change the roles. Your guys are to move the puck around my zone rendering my Ds useless. Who is to stop them? MY FORWARDS.
So stop blaming defence for the poorly done job that wasn't theirs.
You're shadow boxing here...

As it stands the defenseman on this team are taking too many penalties as a result of poor positioning - holding, hooking, or unnecessary obstruction penalties - and thus they must correct this.

You speak of making our defenseman hustle? Yes, that's exactly what they should be doing...except they're not, and that's part of the problem.

Why are they hooking and holding if they're skating? Why are they hooking and holding if they're in the proper position?

Both are questions you need to answer if you fancy taking the opposite side in this debate.

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10-11-2006, 11:47 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Doctor? You? Oh, my... Why here?...

Seriously, Larry, trade is inevidable. We've got no Jarg. We do not have replacement for Ruccin and Ort/Moore. Cullien didn't make a steady convincing impression. He may not be that small, but he acts like one. Hollweg cannot carry the line alone. These are big holes. It is not just 3rd game. It is a continuation of pre-season very much, so it is 8 games. I would use Dawes, but later on. For now he has to be exchanged for Dubunski to finish the October experiments before we trade for 2C.
You're trying to argue that Rucchin's departure has left a big hole in our lineup? Are you kidding me?

One mediocre game and you're willing to throw Cullen overboard? The guy was an integral part of a STANLEY CUP team last season - something the Rangers haven't experienced in over a decade. He's quick, he's good on faceoffs, and the chemistry on his line is evident.

We're 2-1, 3 games into the season. What does "trade is inevitable" mean? Are you implying this season or immediately - certainly the context of your argument implies immediately which couldn't be further from the truth.

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10-12-2006, 06:20 AM
  #557
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I have no idea of where you are taking your "outplayed" theory from. I have not even touched who outplayed whom. All I said that Henke bailed out his completely mediocre defense in the majority of the games.
HOW CAN A GOALIE BAIL HIS TEAM OUT, IF HIS TEAM IS MUCH BETTER THEN THE OTHER TEAM? In other words outplayed. BTW you said great majority.

TB your pursue of Renney and our D should be within some limits. They played better then most of the teams in the league last season. Don't take that away from them!

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10-12-2006, 06:31 AM
  #558
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SOS- Good post, little to big to quote thought!

The game against Philly aside, because that game wheren't good, it seems that many fans in NY are completly blind to D's on other teams in the league.

If we have a forward who don't score 40 goals, nobody says anything, Prucha got a pass last season with his 30+ for example. Because everyone knows that its tough to score 40 goals.

Though if we have a D who aren't as good as Scott Neidermayer, WATCH OUT!

When I watch other teams in the NHL play each other, there are allot of D's out there making misstakes, almost every goal in the league are scored because a D or a forward make a misstake, about an avg of 7 per game.

95% of the games Rozival played last season can at worst be described as averege or good. Maybe 5% where below averege. The fact that he took a few penalties or where on the goal for a goal against, or gave the puck away, does not mean that a D have a bad game, cause if it did, Scott Niedermayer and Nik Lidström would have been below averege 75% of the games last season.

Some people should hold back booing half our blueline on the lineup on opening night.

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10-12-2006, 06:45 AM
  #559
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For example, Phoenix had these pairings last night;
Derek Morris-Ed Jovanovski
Boynton-Yadle
Seidenberg-Michalek

You guys who think that Rozival-Malik where worse then most 3rd pairings in the league last season look at Morris and Jovanovskis play in this game.

http://www.nhl.com/video/app?compone...wmv&sp=45&sp=2

They had a bad game. When you are on the ice for one goal against, and takes one penalty, a D in this league don't necessary have a bad game....

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10-12-2006, 07:46 AM
  #560
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
Rucchin was a TOTAL WASTE and is easily replaced by Cullen, even if I'm not high on Cullen as a 2nd C........
Neither am I.
Removal is what we've got, not a replacement. I understand that thought process was to let Immonen play 2nd or 3rd C, but he had weak camp and I can only guess what the plans are.

Over the summer Sather rid of two centres (Ruccin, Moore)and one RW (Sykora). Another RW was lost to illness. Renney got one centre (Cullien) and two LW (Shanny, Dawes).
What kind of replacement is that? It's like tossing out the furniture and buying TV set to replace it.
I understand the argument:"3 games, don't panic". I don't see what is the direction for Renney though.

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10-12-2006, 07:53 AM
  #561
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You're trying to argue that Rucchin's departure has left a big hole in our lineup? Are you kidding me?

One mediocre game and you're willing to throw Cullen overboard? The guy was an integral part of a STANLEY CUP team last season - something the Rangers haven't experienced in over a decade. He's quick, he's good on faceoffs, and the chemistry on his line is evident.

We're 2-1, 3 games into the season. What does "trade is inevitable" mean? Are you implying this season or immediately - certainly the context of your argument implies immediately which couldn't be further from the truth.
Cullien cannot play two lines at ones Cup or not.

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10-12-2006, 07:58 AM
  #562
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When I watch other teams in the NHL play each other, there are allot of D's out there making misstakes, almost every goal in the league are scored because a D or a forward make a misstake, about an avg of 7 per game.
So why is it a cardinal sin to say, "Rozsival made a bad mistake on that play"? It's an observation. The same one made about Malik and Tyutin, yet the "Pro-Rozsival crowd" feels compelled to jam blog entires from 2 months ago down my throat as if it somehow gives him a pass for losing his man or being caught out of position.

Everyone here understand the limitations of Rozsival. What I don't understand is how the 3rd or 4th best defenseman on the team consistently logs the most minutes and plays in the most critical situations every game. At very least, wouldn't it make sense to try someone else at the point on the PP, or maybe mix up the pairings and see if you can hit on something else?

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10-12-2006, 08:04 AM
  #563
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HOW CAN A GOALIE BAIL HIS TEAM OUT, IF HIS TEAM IS MUCH BETTER THEN THE OTHER TEAM? In other words outplayed. BTW you said great majority.

TB your pursue of Renney and our D should be within some limits. They played better then most of the teams in the league last season. Don't take that away from them!
A team can carry overall play, and still suffer defensive breakdowns. If your team has 10 sog's & the opposing team has 5, but those 5 are all odd-man rushes, who has the better scoring chances? Rangers played a strong game last year, but were prone to multiple defensive breakdowns in virtually every game. Henke, playing as one of the very best goalies in the league, stood on his head and made the saves to bail out an ineffective and very mediocre defense. However, (and believe me, I understand that it is still very, very early) in the past several games you have seen what happens when the defense plays very much like they did last year and Henke is not playing at a uberman level.

I am not taking anything away from the overall team performance last year. However, IMO, the defense was amongst the most pedestrian in the league and Renney, while an excellent motivator and teacher, still seems either incapable of unwilling to actually have to to the things that are necessary when the puck drops. I have compared him to Herm Edwards, and with good reason. Herm is the amongst the nicest coaches in the NFL. He motivates his team and teaches all of his young players. And he is great when it comes to talking to the media. However, when it is time to actually play, his team seems ill-prepared to adjust to anything and the in-game coaching seems deficient.

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10-12-2006, 08:06 AM
  #564
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When you are on the ice for one goal against, and takes one penalty, a D in this league don't necessary have a bad game....
Come on, Ola. You are seriously not comparing Rozsival & Malik to Morris & Jovo, are you? The former is not fit to carry the latter's jock straps.

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10-12-2006, 08:15 AM
  #565
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You're shadow boxing here...

As it stands the defenseman on this team are taking too many penalties as a result of poor positioning - holding, hooking, or unnecessary obstruction penalties - and thus they must correct this.

You speak of making our defenseman hustle? Yes, that's exactly what they should be doing...except they're not, and that's part of the problem.

Why are they hooking and holding if they're skating? Why are they hooking and holding if they're in the proper position?

Both are questions you need to answer if you fancy taking the opposite side in this debate.
Proper position is to be between the puck and the opposition player. Suppose player is stationary, once the puck is moved to the other side of the zone, you got out of position. To correct that you, as a Dman, have to go around your guy to place your self between him and the puck. After that puck is moved again, you have to move again. Now add to it that coverage player is not stationary and you have situation in which you have to hustle hard just to cover frekking one guy that doesn't have a puck. That is hard work, plus this is the game. At some point they may outplay you even if you're working hard. The goal of the coach, though, is to arrange the things the way when my guys do not work hard, while yours are. Players know that if they have to work way too hard it is a bench fault. THEY MIGHT BE RIGHT.

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10-12-2006, 09:21 AM
  #566
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SoS...

did we need to re-hash that? The whole analysis loses credibility when a guy states that a defenseman had 519 more shifts than Jagr - knowing full well one guys play on the PK, and the other does not. Jagr plays on the PP, but Rozsival did a bit too, and for each PK, it's not uncommon for Rozsival to be out there for two shifts.

And nobody's said that Rozsival played exclusively with Jagr. He played a heck of a lot with Jagr.

Personally, I go by what I see. Having watched each game, I would say that Rozsival was aided significantly in his +/-. He didn't score a lot, so he wasn't responsible for many pluses, yet he was on this ice (I believe) for more goals against than any other defenseman (I need to confirm this, but through January, this was the case). So something doesn't add up. Consider also that Poti was what, +16 or +17 - how did that happen? By most accounts Poti was one of the worst defensemen in the league, let alone the team, and he had a better +/- than every defenseman on Carolina, and was right up there with Lidstron and Chelios, and better than every Devil, and every Oiler including Pronger, and the list goes on. Is that stat flawed? Hell yeah. Can it be used as a tool with other stats and facts, I believe so.

Look, I'm not a Rozsival basher per se. I like Rozsival. I liked his signing. I'm just not about to say he's that good a defenseman. I still believe he's an average defenseman, and that as such, be benefitted significantly from those around him (and considering those stats talk so much about how Rozsival didn't play with Jagr exclusively - one must wonder how Jagr managed a similar +/- - must be that last season his results were not dependent so much on which defenseman was on the ice when he was out there).

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10-12-2006, 01:11 PM
  #567
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Come on, Ola. You are seriously not comparing Rozsival & Malik to Morris & Jovo, are you? The former is not fit to carry the latter's jock straps.
My point is that Morris and Jovo looked goddamnawful in that game. D's play a vounerable position. If a forwards gets a scoringopertunity and puts it into the stomach of the goalie, we go "damn"! If a D looses his man he is a terrible hockeyplayer.

Rozival aren't a much worse D then Cullen is a 2nd line center. Malik at D can be compared to what Straka brings on the ice as a LW. Still the forwards always gets a free pass, except for Hossa, and the D's playing in NY are always "very limited". ect.

Just look at the players getting booed on opening night, like 4 defensemens. Look at the players beeing booed in NY the last decade, it never where Kevin Stevens or Petr Nedved, only Tom Poti and Bruce Driver.

In the end I think we need to start realizing that making misstakes as a D comes with the territory.

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10-12-2006, 01:20 PM
  #568
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If a D looses his man he is a terrible hockeyplayer.
The difference between a good defenseman and a bad one is how often he loses his man or is caught out of position.

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10-12-2006, 01:54 PM
  #569
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The difference between a good defenseman and a bad one is how often he loses his man or is caught out of position.
Exactly. And what I have seen out of Rozsival is not much different that what I saw out of him last year. The only difference is that Henke has not been there to bail him out each time.
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Originally Posted by Ola
Rozival aren't a much worse D then Cullen is a 2nd line center. Malik at D can be compared to what Straka brings on the ice as a LW. Still the forwards always gets a free pass, except for Hossa, and the D's playing in NY are always "very limited". ect.
Sorry, but Rozsival does not translate to a top-6 forward, were he a defensman. Malik can probably make it as a #4, but not Rozsival. On his very best night, he is a #4 type of defenseman. Mostly, he is a 3rd pairing d-man, who masquerades as a top-pairing one.
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In the end I think we need to start realizing that making misstakes as a D comes with the territory.
Off course they do. However, you cannot keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again.

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10-12-2006, 02:46 PM
  #570
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Proper position is to be between the puck and the opposition player. Suppose player is stationary, once the puck is moved to the other side of the zone, you got out of position. To correct that you, as a Dman, have to go around your guy to place your self between him and the puck. After that puck is moved again, you have to move again. Now add to it that coverage player is not stationary and you have situation in which you have to hustle hard just to cover frekking one guy that doesn't have a puck. That is hard work, plus this is the game. At some point they may outplay you even if you're working hard. The goal of the coach, though, is to arrange the things the way when my guys do not work hard, while yours are. Players know that if they have to work way too hard it is a bench fault. THEY MIGHT BE RIGHT.
You talk about players moving, players are stationary, gaining position on opponents, but you fail miserably in providing any context. You're arguing some imaginary point that I, nor TB made.

It's quite simple, and no scribble board is required: our players (in particular the defense) are out of position, and are not moving their feet - as a result they're being forced to reach out with either a stick or a glove in order to stop the opposition.

Granted everyone is responsible for the loss, you can't pin things just on coaching: the players are the ones on the ice, not the coaches.

Roszival is in poor position relative to the puck and pulls his man down, Hossa gets beat by not playing his forechecking angle properly; hustles back to grab his man but stops moving his feet and reaches with his stick; Malik gets caught on the wrong side of his man infront of the net and pulls on him with an arm to prevent an opportunity.

The bottom line here is this is common sense ****! The way you play a man infront on a 2 on 2 shouldn't change, regardless of coaching. The way you cover a man on the penalty kill shouldn't change regardless of coaching. It's the same principles, the same positioning, and the same muscle memory. What we're seeing is laziness and early-season foggy brains!

That's the point!

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10-12-2006, 07:47 PM
  #571
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
So why is it a cardinal sin to say, "Rozsival made a bad mistake on that play"? It's an observation. The same one made about Malik and Tyutin, yet the "Pro-Rozsival crowd" feels compelled to jam blog entires from 2 months ago down my throat as if it somehow gives him a pass for losing his man or being caught out of position.

Everyone here understand the limitations of Rozsival. What I don't understand is how the 3rd or 4th best defenseman on the team consistently logs the most minutes and plays in the most critical situations every game. At very least, wouldn't it make sense to try someone else at the point on the PP, or maybe mix up the pairings and see if you can hit on something else?
It isn't a cardinal sin..Infact I've said it over the course of last season and this season.

Why is it the anti-Rozsvial crowd feels compelled to ignore the blog entires and continue to post non-factual information about the guy. He isn't a bad defenseman and helped this team win many games last season. He chews up ice time on defense and can handle every situtation.

Why doesn't Renney mix things up? Because it's too friggin early to panic....

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10-13-2006, 08:13 AM
  #572
Melrose_Jr.
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post

Why is it the anti-Rozsvial crowd feels compelled to ignore the blog entires and continue to post non-factual information about the guy. He isn't a bad defenseman and helped this team win many games last season. He chews up ice time on defense and can handle every situtation.
What do the blog entries have to with what I saw on the ice last night?

Whether or not he's a good defenseman has nothing to do with the fact that he's in way over his head right now and really hurting the team. Players who are playing well need to be on the ice against the opponents top lines and on special teams. Clearly, he cannot handle "every situation".

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10-13-2006, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
What do the blog entries have to with what I saw on the ice last night?

Whether or not he's a good defenseman has nothing to do with the fact that he's in way over his head right now and really hurting the team. Players who are playing well need to be on the ice against the opponents top lines and on special teams. Clearly, he cannot handle "every situation".
Hmm i wonder....

anyway the blog entry was in response to the nonsense regarding Rozsvial season last year...

He can handle every situation and showed last season..

He played to great games to start the year but maybe his conditioning is off due to you know missing all of camp...

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10-14-2006, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post

He played to great games to start the year but maybe his conditioning is off due to you know missing all of camp...
I agree, and he's said as much himself. That's why I'm suggesting a reduced role, at least until he gets into game shape and proves that he can indeed handle every situation.

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