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Our great prospect. (MERGED)

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Old
10-15-2006, 03:52 PM
  #1
chosen
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Our great prospect. (MERGED)

The Rangers have historically drafted near the bottom of the league since Sather took over yet I keep hearing about all of our great young prospects. Yet somehow, all that we have produced at the NHL level so far is Lundqvist and to a slightly lesser, extent, Prucha.

Look around the league and there are seemingly young stars sprouting at the NHL level on an awful lot of teams. Why is it that we can never find a Kopitar or Semin or a Wellwood etc.?

I'm beginning to wonder if we have been sold a bill of goods based on hype about all of our great young talent. If not, then management has failed us by not having them up here and producing. My guess is that we have a few nice players but very, very few impact players, if any.

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10-15-2006, 04:10 PM
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We'll find out...

some time between now and a year or so. We'll soon see what we haev in Staal, Sanguineti, Dubinsky, Dawes, Montoya and others. Right now, Lundqvist and Prucha seem pretty real, and both are only in their second season.

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10-16-2006, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
The Rangers have historically drafted near the bottom of the league since Sather took over yet I keep hearing about all of our great young prospects. Yet somehow, all that we have produced at the NHL level so far is Lundqvist and to a slightly lesser, extent, Prucha.

Look around the league and there are seemingly young stars sprouting at the NHL level on an awful lot of teams. Why is it that we can never find a Kopitar or Semin or a Wellwood etc.?

I'm beginning to wonder if we have been sold a bill of goods based on hype about all of our great young talent. If not, then management has failed us by not having them up here and producing. My guess is that we have a few nice players but very, very few impact players, if any.
I wanted Kopitar so bad.

I knew from draft day that he was going to dominate in the NHL. An INCREDIBLE combination of size, speed, power, and skill. The only thing he doesn't do is play with that nasty edge, otherwise he'd be the prototypical power forward.

All we needed to do was trade up another SPOT OR TWO to get him. I was so pissed when he was drafted ONE SPOT before us.

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10-16-2006, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
I wanted Kopitar so bad.

I knew from draft day that he was going to dominate in the NHL. An INCREDIBLE combination of size, speed, power, and skill. The only thing he doesn't do is play with that nasty edge, otherwise he'd be the prototypical power forward.

All we needed to do was trade up another SPOT OR TWO to get him. I was so pissed when he was drafted ONE SPOT before us.
Don't waste your time being pissed about that. Sather would not have taken him anyway. His drafting track record is evidence enough of that. He probably never even heard of him.

At least we've got Jessiman while Parise plays with the Devils.

And don't forget that Falardeau will be the latter day Joel Otto.

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10-16-2006, 08:41 AM
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Jessiman's started the year strong and from all accounts is looking like an entirely different player than he was last year...

hopefully he keeps it up and maybe even by the end of the year earns a look with the Rangers

I still contend that Jessiman reaching his potential will be much more valuable than Parise reaching his potential. As much of a pipedream as that may be...

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10-16-2006, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
The Rangers have historically drafted near the bottom of the league since Sather took over yet I keep hearing about all of our great young prospects. Yet somehow, all that we have produced at the NHL level so far is Lundqvist and to a slightly lesser, extent, Prucha.

Look around the league and there are seemingly young stars sprouting at the NHL level on an awful lot of teams. Why is it that we can never find a Kopitar or Semin or a Wellwood etc.?

I'm beginning to wonder if we have been sold a bill of goods based on hype about all of our great young talent. If not, then management has failed us by not having them up here and producing. My guess is that we have a few nice players but very, very few impact players, if any.
I don't know about never finding a Wellwood, Semin or Kopitar. I agree with you that we haven't found a Jarome Iginla or Marianl Hossa in a long time, franchise forward piced outside the top 10. Though players like that aren't so common.

On Wellwood for example, he plays infront of great D's, next too one of the best centers in the game. Could a young Mike York have had the same results Wellwood are having? Yes IMO.

Semin have extreme speed, and have superstar potential, but he have had (big)problems with beeing effective in the past, IMO he is pretty comparable with Prucha right now.

Kopitar have great potential, but have only scored points in three NHL games so far, I wouldn't put him in a star cathegory just yet. Its really early so far in Anze's case, though I admit that his potential ought to have moved him up higher in the draft.

I long for a Iginla or Hossa, like you do, but they aren't very common.

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10-16-2006, 11:22 AM
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This thread confuses me. How many teams out there have 2 young players that you would be willing to trade Lundqvist and Prucha for? Other than Pittsburgh and Washington, no team really jumps out at me. I am not sure we should be complaining about not having a Kopitar, Semin, etc.

We have a rookie goalie that was a Vezina finalist, and a forward that scored 30 goals with limited ice time, and normally would be a Calder finalist if it were any other year than last.

Is the glass always half empty in Rangerland?

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10-16-2006, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Don't waste your time being pissed about that. Sather would not have taken him anyway. His drafting track record is evidence enough of that. He probably never even heard of him.

At least we've got Jessiman while Parise plays with the Devils.

And don't forget that Falardeau will be the latter day Joel Otto.


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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Jessiman's started the year strong and from all accounts is looking like an entirely different player than he was last year...

hopefully he keeps it up and maybe even by the end of the year earns a look with the Rangers

I still contend that Jessiman reaching his potential will be much more valuable than Parise reaching his potential. As much of a pipedream as that may be...
I usually agree with almost everything you say, but I've gotta disagree with this one.

Parise is a superb talent that has the ability to be a top-line point per game two-way center. Jessiman maxes out as a 2nd line power forward.

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Originally Posted by MadHookUp View Post
This thread confuses me. How many teams out there have 2 young players that you would be willing to trade Lundqvist and Prucha for? Other than Pittsburgh and Washington, no team really jumps out at me. I am not sure we should be complaining about not having a Kopitar, Semin, etc.

We have a rookie goalie that was a Vezina finalist, and a forward that scored 30 goals with limited ice time, and normally would be a Calder finalist if it were any other year than last.

Is the glass always half empty in Rangerland?
The glass is always half empty because there's A LOT of good players we've missed out on.

The 03 draft is the straw that broke the camel's back for me.

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10-16-2006, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by MadHookUp View Post
How many teams out there have 2 young players that you would be willing to trade Lundqvist and Prucha for? Other than Pittsburgh and Washington, no team really jumps out at me.
How about Calgary? Or LA? Or Carolina? Or Ottawa?

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10-16-2006, 12:09 PM
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How about Calgary? Or LA? Or Carolina? Or Ottawa?
Or Anaheim....

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10-16-2006, 12:13 PM
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Or Anaheim....
Or Columbus?

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10-16-2006, 12:19 PM
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Yes, I can list several teams that have 2 good young players, how many are you willing to give up Lundqvist for? Now keep in mind that you are comparing 2 young players, to 2 young players. Don't lower Lundqvists value because we have Montoya.

Other than Ovechkin + Semin or Crosby + Malkin, I just dont see any duo better than Lundqvist/Prucha. Granted Calgary, Ottawa, and Anaheim have good young players. But worthy of a young Vezina goaltender? I dont think so.

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10-16-2006, 12:23 PM
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Actually, I think I can better phrase my question. Pretend you are an expansion team, and you can take 2 Sophmore or younger players from 1 team. Which team do you pick? And which 2 players?

Crosby/Malkin seems obvious. I am in love with Ovechkin, so I might move him above Lund/Prucha. How many duo's do you rank above Lundqvist/Prucha?

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10-16-2006, 12:25 PM
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Yes, I can list several teams that have 2 good young players, how many are you willing to give up Lundqvist for? Now keep in mind that you are comparing 2 young players, to 2 young players. Don't lower Lundqvists value because we have Montoya.

Other than Ovechkin + Semin or Crosby + Malkin, I just dont see any duo better than Lundqvist/Prucha. Granted Calgary, Ottawa, and Anaheim have good young players. But worthy of a young Vezina goaltender? I dont think so.
There are few players i'd trade straight up for Lundqvist cause the guy is my fave player, and the fact that he's a cool guy away from the Ice factors into it, so I can't be objective. But if Columbus were to offer Nash & Leclaire for Henke & Prucha I'd take it and don't look back

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10-16-2006, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
There are few players i'd trade straight up for Lundqvist cause the guy is my fave player, and the fact that he's a cool guy away from the Ice factors into it, so I can't be objective. But if Columbus were to offer Nash & Leclaire for Henke & Prucha I'd take it and don't look back

Really? You like Leclaire better then Lundy? I was under the impression the Leclaire wasn't "all that".

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10-16-2006, 12:36 PM
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we're going to have to revisit this question 2-3 years from now (though it will be a constant topic of debate in the meen time.) You have to remember that the philosophical shift in the Ranger front office didn't occure until late 2003 and began with the great purge of that year. While there where some guys in the system before that (notably Lundqvist, Prucha, Dawes, Baranka, Jessiman and a few others) the vast majority of the ranger's prospect depth was aquired after the 2004 draft.
That 2004 draft class (when 13 players where drafted, 6 in the first 2 rounds) is really the first of the rebuild. If draft classes where tree rings you'd see that 2004 is a much thicker ring that it's predescessors and that the subsequent rings after it are also thicker than those coming before 2004(ok, I'll admit that this is a rediculously far flung comparison to make, but I like it and it's staying.) That 2004 class is just hitting 20 years old and most of those players are just now hitting the AHL. Two years from now many of those players will atleast be knocking at the door of the big club, and a few (I'm thinking Dubinsky and Montoya) likely will have made the team. Also at that time players from the 2005 and 2006 classes will be showing up in the AHL, and we'll be better able to evalute them too.

Right now most of the guys in the system just arn't close enough to get a really good read on, but that doesn't meen the Rangers have done a poor job of drafting since the purge. Infact, i'd even venture to say that sings are looking very positive right now.

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10-16-2006, 12:41 PM
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Really? You like Leclaire better then Lundy? I was under the impression the Leclaire wasn't "all that".
I don't think he's saying that he prefers Leclair to Lundqvist, but rather that he preffers the package of Leclaire + nash to Lundqvist + Prucha.

And Leclaire is nothing to sneeze at. He's come along very slowly, though not that slowly for a goaltender, but he has progressed steadily to the point that Columbus seems to be sold on him as the #1 guy, which is not unimpressive when you consider that he's still only 23.

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10-16-2006, 12:57 PM
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We were due for a thread like this...
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=59866
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=187358]
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=72972
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=75871

We seem to have them every six months to a year.

We have a solid system and Sathers draft record is great with the Rangers. The Grass is always greener on the other side but I assure you fans of other teams are looking at the Rangers system and are saying "i wish that was us!"


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10-16-2006, 01:24 PM
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I would have never drafted Parise over Jessiman. I don't believe Parise is a super talent. I think he's a fast forward who is 25-35 on a top line. I've been watching the Rangers a long time. We lose more games because we don't have big forwards with hands in front to get garbage goals. Last time we had a tough forward that could score in front it was Graves. We won a cup.

Jessiman is coming on now. A lot of our fans have no patience. I also think if you want prospects to develop in the NHL you have to follow a few simple rules. One, play them. I don't see our coaching staff doing that. Two, play them with vets that make sense. Don't put a scorer like Dawes on a checking line. That's foolish. Three, don't bury the kid when he makes a mistake. You can bench him, send a message, then play the heck out of him. Keenan must have benched Kovalev and Zubov 20 times in 93/94, then he would play them 25 minutes.

Drafting speedy forwards is nice. However, when you come up against a good defense and a hot goalie, you need guys to win the battles in the trenches to get goals. You need guys in front of the net that can't be moved to create screens and put in rebounds. Jessiman has this ability. Just because he hasn't developed super quick is no reason to jump off the ship. Would you really want a 5'11 forward who has to score off the rush over a 6'5, 230 pound forward who can be a nightmare in front of the net? I wouldn't.

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10-16-2006, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by refusetoreport View Post
I would have never drafted Parise over Jessiman. I don't believe Parise is a super talent. I think he's a fast forward who is 25-35 on a top line. I've been watching the Rangers a long time. We lose more games because we don't have big forwards with hands in front to get garbage goals. Last time we had a tough forward that could score in front it was Graves. We won a cup.

Jessiman is coming on now. A lot of our fans have no patience. I also think if you want prospects to develop in the NHL you have to follow a few simple rules. One, play them. I don't see our coaching staff doing that. Two, play them with vets that make sense. Don't put a scorer like Dawes on a checking line. That's foolish. Three, don't bury the kid when he makes a mistake. You can bench him, send a message, then play the heck out of him. Keenan must have benched Kovalev and Zubov 20 times in 93/94, then he would play them 25 minutes.

Drafting speedy forwards is nice. However, when you come up against a good defense and a hot goalie, you need guys to win the battles in the trenches to get goals. You need guys in front of the net that can't be moved to create screens and put in rebounds. Jessiman has this ability. Just because he hasn't developed super quick is no reason to jump off the ship. Would you really want a 5'11 forward who has to score off the rush over a 6'5, 230 pound forward who can be a nightmare in front of the net? I wouldn't.
the criticism of the Jessiman pick has less to do with parise than it does the other players that where picked after him that fit the description that you just gave. But lets please not hijack this thread with that debate.

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10-16-2006, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
There are few players i'd trade straight up for Lundqvist cause the guy is my fave player, and the fact that he's a cool guy away from the Ice factors into it, so I can't be objective. But if Columbus were to offer Nash & Leclaire for Henke & Prucha I'd take it and don't look back
Nash has been in the league for nearly 5 years. I was thinking more along the lines of 0-2 years.

I think the point I am trying to make is, we are one of the few teams that have no right complaining about lack of young talent.

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10-16-2006, 01:41 PM
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the criticism of the Jessiman pick has less to do with parise than it does the other players that where picked after him that fit the description that you just gave. But lets please not hijack this thread with that debate.
I disagree. People tend to think guys like Bernier, Getzlaf and Stewart are power forwards. Not me. My definition isn't a 6'1, 6'2 215lb forward. When I think of power forward I think 6'3 to 6'5, 225 to 240 lbs. A guy you simply can't move in front.

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10-16-2006, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
We have a solid system and Sathers draft record is great with the Rangers.
Sather's draft record is great!? That is an absolutely absurd statement that makes me wonder whether it is said in jest. If it is serious, you must think that most of the other GMs are gods. One can only imagine what you think of Lamoriello's drafting history. Milbury has totally dominated Sather at the draft table. Problem is that he usually gave up on them far too soon and dealt them.

Sather has been there for 6 years so he must have drafted quite a bit of talent by now. Forgetting for a second who is still in the pipeline, please list all of his great draft picks that are now in the NHL and producing.

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10-16-2006, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by refusetoreport View Post
I disagree. People tend to think guys like Bernier, Getzlaf and Stewart are power forwards. Not me. My definition isn't a 6'1, 6'2 215lb forward. When I think of power forward I think 6'3 to 6'5, 225 to 240 lbs. A guy you simply can't move in front.
well, Getzlaf and Fehr are both 6'4", so even by your strictly measurement based assesment they wold qualify.

But that aside, I think your being very shortsighted here. you wouldn't consider Jarome Iginla a powerfoward? You do realize that Mark Messier was no bigger than 6'1", right?

More than often, and i know this is a cliche, but it's appropriate, it comes down to the size of the fight in the in the dog rather than the size of the dog itself, tohugh size always helps. How size is distributed is also very important, some guys are tall and lanky and will never fill out enough to be an itimidating physical pressance, while others can be shorter and wider and play extreemly physical.

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10-16-2006, 01:56 PM
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I think the point I am trying to make is, we are one of the few teams that have no right complaining about lack of young talent.
How is that? What are you pointing to to make you be able to say that?

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