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Old
10-19-2006, 11:41 AM
  #126
Bluenote13
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Originally Posted by xander View Post
I've thought that myself, certainly would have saved himself alot of trouble if he'd just gone up to Moore and slugged him a few times. He would have gotten an instigator, but Moore would still be playing and Bertuzzi would be hailed as a loyal teamate rather than a hated 'neandrathal.'

But as Edge says, I think it's pretty clear that Bertuzzi had no intention of causing serious injury to Moore. Notice that I don't meen that he wasn't trying to hurt Moore, because we he certainly was, but the intention was to rough him up, not end his career.
Why is it people always assume Moore was out to hurt Naslund, but Bertuzzi didn't mean to hurt anyone and somehow this is what makes it okay?

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10-19-2006, 11:45 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Jon Prescription View Post
I'll tell ya, I don't remember anything as violent as that in a LONG, LONG time in the NHL...
Personally I don't even think it was the punches, it was landing awkwardly. That doesn't happen and the actual "pounding" doesn't even make my top ten from the last 10 years.

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10-19-2006, 11:49 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Why is it people always assume Moore was out to hurt Naslund, but Bertuzzi didn't mean to hurt anyone and somehow this is what makes it okay?
I don't think it's that so much as this event is very much an example of players feeling a little too save to do what they want and it boils over into this.

Before making the game "civilized" Moore never does what he does, whether his intention is to hurt or not. He knows that the minute he turns around someone is on him like rice.

But that's the big problem with the game right now, players who normally aren't brave suddenly are because there's no fear.

"I'll hit your star and if you come after me I'll get a PP too". Guys like Tik would take that challange but they also paid a hell of a price for what they did.

Not condoning what Bertuzzi did, but I think we have to understand how it happened and why it'll happen again.

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10-19-2006, 11:50 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Why is it people always assume Moore was out to hurt Naslund, but Bertuzzi didn't mean to hurt anyone and somehow this is what makes it okay?
I don't think Moore was out to hurt Naslund, I think he finished a perfectly legal check on him while Naslund came through the neutral zone with his head down.

The thing is, just because it's a legal hit doesn't meen that you can allow it to happen to your superstar. Moore has to know that before he hits Naslund, he has to know that Naslund is not someone that you can layout without retribution. That's why enforcers exist, to make sure that stars stay healthy, even in the case of a legal hit.

And Bertuzzi absolutely ment to hurt Moore, but he didn't meen to end his career.

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10-19-2006, 11:52 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Again, nothing that hasn't been done countless times in this sport on a variety of levels.

What Bertuzzi did was something that has happened before and often with minor penalty or double minor results. In fact there have actually been for more aggressive acts that didn't result in the injuries.

Where everything fell apart was that Moore DID get injured. The act itself was neither something new nor unheard of.
Totally diagree here Edge.

In the days of Gordie Howe guys were pretty brutal, but I don't recall anytime in 'recent' history, Messier days, of ever seeing a guys head being driven into the ice with such force. Maybe when two guys were fighting, FACING one another, or a wrestling match by two guys already down on the ice, but not as malicious.

Nah man, I'm sorry, but although there have always been dirty players i've only seen crap like that in the junior or minor leagues. The Mcsorely & Dave Brown stick to the heads were comparable but not as bad as Bertuzzi grabbing Moore from behind.

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10-19-2006, 11:55 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by TheChief View Post
Smyth would be a great player to add to the top lines. However I am counting on Todd Bertuzzi being available at the deadline when the Panthers are out of the race.
If things don't improve around here,the Rangers may be dumping players at the Feb 27 deadline.Stranger things have happened

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10-19-2006, 12:32 PM
  #132
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The deadline is...

the 27th? Thanks for the info, RangerBoy - they finally came around to making it earlier.

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10-19-2006, 02:35 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Totally diagree here Edge.

In the days of Gordie Howe guys were pretty brutal, but I don't recall anytime in 'recent' history, Messier days, of ever seeing a guys head being driven into the ice with such force. Maybe when two guys were fighting, FACING one another, or a wrestling match by two guys already down on the ice, but not as malicious.

Nah man, I'm sorry, but although there have always been dirty players i've only seen crap like that in the junior or minor leagues. The Mcsorely & Dave Brown stick to the heads were comparable but not as bad as Bertuzzi grabbing Moore from behind.
To me what went wrong was brutal, the act itself is nothing new. Had Claude Limieux been off by a fraction we'd be saying the same thing of his hit on Draper. If Brashear had been half a step behind he would've lost an eye and not just been hit in the temple, etc. etc.

The act itself, if a fraction of a second different doesn't do the damange it does and it doesn't get the attention. By chance it did and so it get elevated.

You're right Howe and Messier never drove someone's head into the ice, they just kncked their teeth down their throat with elbows, cross checked people in the back of the head, elbowed guys into the kidney and did other actions that (just like Bertuzzi) could have a totally different outcome on chance. Because it didn't doesn't make it any less violent or brutal. The person who drives home drunk is no better than the guy who happens to hit someone while doing, the odds just came out different.

As such the guy who hit someone pays his price and moves on, but it doesn't make him different from the guys who got lucky nothing happened.

Doesn't make it right, doesn't mean he didn't deserve to be punished, but it doesn't make him worse than the guys who got lucky nothing happened who we idolize.

What really disturbs me, and it's a relfection of the culture this sport now breeds, was how absolutely unaware Moore was that someone might be looking to go after him.

Despite hitting the star player, despite Bertuzzi yapping at him, pulling on him and poking him he skates around without a care in the world. With a look or a glance back or any kind of way to defend himself from a confrontation that could so easily be resolved. So he does the passive aggressive ignoring routine (which is now commonplace) then acts like he's been shot when Bertuzzi gives him a shot (with gloves on) which causes him to tuck his chin and leave himself even more defenseless.

What do we see time and time again with these incidents? A player who has the chance to answer for his actions before hand, take it as a price for hitting star players (fair, legal or otherwise) but instead ignoring it, trying to sucker someone into a penalty and (let's be honest here) had Bertuzzi not pushed him, was going to try to flop and act like he'd been shot in an effort to embelish the play.

The same routine we see time and time again from players in this league now because they feel they can do anything because fighting is so unneccessary and a bunch of guys who've never skated a game in their life have such a grand vision of how they will market a product that was more popular before they "fixed" it.

This incident is about more than just one event, it's the culmination (and another example) of what the NHL has created.

Why was fighting in the game without insitgator rules before? Because the sport dictates steam needs to blown off. It worked fine for 75 years and beyond. But it was clearly far worse than the alternatives we've seen in recent years and now we've gone even further so that anyone who even throws what looks like a check or tries to play defense gets a penalty.

And this new and improved style continues to lose sponsors, ratings and get pushed further and further away from the main stream.

This incident will happen again, and the league will look dumbfounded like they usually do while trying to run a press release by their legal team to condone actions which they have helped to create.

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10-19-2006, 04:24 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
If things don't improve around here,the Rangers may be dumping players at the Feb 27 deadline.Stranger things have happened
yeah this team was put together very poorly and lundqvist has been bad for a while which is very disturbing.

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10-19-2006, 04:31 PM
  #135
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yeah this team was put together very poorly and lundqvist has been bad for a while which is very disturbing.
...you forgot to add Tyutin is horrible/overrated.

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10-19-2006, 06:06 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
What Bertuzzi did was something that has happened before and often with minor penalty or double minor results. In fact there have actually been for more aggressive acts that didn't result in the injuries.
like when exactly? and again, I'm not talking about the punch, but when you slam someone's head into the ice that hard, there's a good chance there will be some serious neck damage.

and of course it doesn't make him a bad person. as I've said, I hated him before it was a craze.

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10-19-2006, 10:38 PM
  #137
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Like when? It's as simple as watching tapes of the some of the most physical players in the game.

From Owen Noland to Tucker to Messier to Howe, etc.

Heck what if Cloutier beat down on Salo had one punch that odds say really hurt the guy, we'd be talking about Cloutier and how he beat Salo into the ice and hurt him.

Again, this conversation to me comes down to an inch. One inch difference and it's something we don't mention. It goes down as a rough play but not something like this.

Nothing worse than a list of things our own Kasparitis has done in his career.

Based on that TONS of plays have risks like the Bertuzzi one. High sticks, elbows, charging, checking from behind etc.

But nothing happened so we don't mention those, but if it did we'd be talking about it.

THAT is my main point really. It was just the odds, a million other events could've had the same effect and someday a different event will.

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10-19-2006, 11:07 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Like when? It's as simple as watching tapes of the some of the most physical players in the game.

From Owen Noland to Tucker to Messier to Howe, etc.

Heck what if Cloutier beat down on Salo had one punch that odds say really hurt the guy, we'd be talking about Cloutier and how he beat Salo into the ice and hurt him.

Again, this conversation to me comes down to an inch. One inch difference and it's something we don't mention. It goes down as a rough play but not something like this.

Nothing worse than a list of things our own Kasparitis has done in his career.

Based on that TONS of plays have risks like the Bertuzzi one. High sticks, elbows, charging, checking from behind etc.

But nothing happened so we don't mention those, but if it did we'd be talking about it.

THAT is my main point really. It was just the odds, a million other events could've had the same effect and someday a different event will.
that's apples and bowling balls IMO

when you thrust someone's head into the ice at that angle with that force, there's a very good chance you'll do serious damage to the neck. it's not bad luck.


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10-20-2006, 06:11 AM
  #139
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the 27th? Thanks for the info, RangerBoy - they finally came around to making it earlier.
The date was changed in the new CBA.Since last season was an Olympic year,the deadline was later than it is supposed to be in the new CBA

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10-20-2006, 06:13 AM
  #140
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Shanahan has chosen to live in bustling Manhattan rather than the 'burbs, nods to the doorman every morning as he walks his twins to pre-school, has his chocolate Lab set up with a Central Park dog walker a Devils fan, no less and is gradually finding a level of comfort in the Big Apple.

"It's a different way of living," he said. "I guess I like playing in places in the NHL where the volume is turned up
."
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...3064&t=TS_Home

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10-20-2006, 08:24 AM
  #141
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I tend to think...

that Bertuzzi maliciously tried to hurt Moore. He tried to goad him into a fight, and when he didn't fight, he cold-cocked him in the head and then thrusted his face into the ice while holding the back of the neck. That's malicious. But the question is, how much more malicious is that than the guy that sticks his elbow out and tries to take another's head off? We don't see it every day, but it's also something that still happens.

But the severity of the 'crime' is always linked to the severity of the injury. If you shoot a guy and he lives, it could be attempted murder. If you shoot a guy and he dies, it's murder. If you miss with an elbow, it may not be a penalty. If you connect, you may be suspended for a long time depending on the injury. The act, however, and the intent in both cases is very often the same.

I do not condone what Bertuzzi did. I agree with his sentence and am pretty disgraced by his actions. But there is an interesting debate considering that so many of these acts may go unpunished despite the intent because a player doesn't get injured, or the flying elbow simply just misses, or what have you.

Would I have Bertuzzi on my team? The guy's not really a dirty player. He committed his crime and did his punishment. If he could help out, I don't think I'd sit there and be disgraced that he's a Ranger. It's a tough call since I haven't truly needed to think about it. To show my hypocrocity, I didn't think there was any place in the NHL for a guy like Matt Johnson, who ended Beuk's career with a senseless, unexpected punch to the head, but welcomed Ulfie, who had his share of dirty play. So why listen to me if I spew out double standards based on the contribution level of players in the league?

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10-20-2006, 08:25 AM
  #142
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Good stuff, Rangerboy...

interesting that he has a Devils fan as a dog walker - about as interesting as there being a Devils fan in New York City.

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10-20-2006, 11:19 AM
  #143
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that Bertuzzi maliciously tried to hurt Moore. He tried to goad him into a fight, and when he didn't fight, he cold-cocked him in the head and then thrusted his face into the ice while holding the back of the neck. That's malicious. But the question is, how much more malicious is that than the guy that sticks his elbow out and tries to take another's head off? We don't see it every day, but it's also something that still happens.
And that's what I'm saying. Is he any worse than the guy who didn't do damage with an elbow aimed at the back of the head?

Or the guy who puts a hockey stick into someone's kidney area?

Or a hockey HOF'er who punched an unsuspecting ref during a game?

He did his crime, paid his price. The injury happened to be severe, but if it didn't injure the guy as bad than we're not talking about. Period end of sentence.

But because it did, the crime has taken on a live of it's own over other plays that have just as much a chance of committing injury and those guys don't get nearly the grief Bertuzzi gets.

Quote:
But the severity of the 'crime' is always linked to the severity of the injury. If you shoot a guy and he lives, it could be attempted murder. If you shoot a guy and he dies, it's murder. If you miss with an elbow, it may not be a penalty. If you connect, you may be suspended for a long time depending on the injury. The act, however, and the intent in both cases is very often the same.
Also 100% acknowledge. Right, wrong or indifferent that is the way it works. And for that Bertuzzi will have to live with.

Quote:
I do not condone what Bertuzzi did. I agree with his sentence and am pretty disgraced by his actions. But there is an interesting debate considering that so many of these acts may go unpunished despite the intent because a player doesn't get injured, or the flying elbow simply just misses, or what have you.
EXACTLY.

It doesn;t make what he did acceptable. I'm not condoning it, but I am commenting that there are a lot of acts that could do just as much damage (their odds are just as good of hurting someone). The difference is that it did happen with Bertuzzi. But just because his actually had a result and other guys didn't (by luck or good fortune) doesn't mean they are any less violent than him. Thus my point that incidents with just as much chance of causing injury happen quite regularly. The only difference is that Bertuzzi's actually did.

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Would I have Bertuzzi on my team? The guy's not really a dirty player. He committed his crime and did his punishment. If he could help out, I don't think I'd sit there and be disgraced that he's a Ranger. It's a tough call since I haven't truly needed to think about it. To show my hypocrocity, I didn't think there was any place in the NHL for a guy like Matt Johnson, who ended Beuk's career with a senseless, unexpected punch to the head, but welcomed Ulfie, who had his share of dirty play. So why listen to me if I spew out double standards based on the contribution level of players in the league?
And that's what it comes down to for me. We grill Bert but we have Kaspar. We've had Ulfie, we've had Messier, we still get a "kick" out of the beating Cloutier gave Salo even when Salo was down on the ice pretty much defenseless.

Each and every one of those guys or plays could've had just as unfortunate a result, but luck would have that they didn't and so we don't talk about them and we accept them and move on.

So the real question is: What makes a dirty play? The result or the intent? And if it's not the intent, than are they only a dirty player after their luck runs out?

And going on that is Bertuzzi a dirty player for having less dirty intentions under his belt but more injuries as compared to a guy who easily has more intentions than Bertuzzi than less injuries?

If Bertuzzi has done (just as an example) 5 dirty players in his career and one resulted in an major injury, does that make him a worse guy than say Kasparitis who has 15 dirty players in his careers and doesn't have that one major injury so far?

If so who determines that and why?

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10-20-2006, 11:28 AM
  #144
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that's apples and bowling balls IMO

when you thrust someone's head into the ice at that angle with that force, there's a very good chance you'll do serious damage to the neck. it's not bad luck.

You don't think sticks to the kidney could hurt? There have been few incidents of players nearly dieing from such because there is internal bleeding and they don't realize.

An elbow to the back of the head? Just as likely.

My point is not that the action wasn't aggressive but rather that all the plays we've named are just as likely to cause that kind of damange. That they didn't is due more to good fortune rather than the acts being less aggressive.

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