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Old
10-19-2006, 11:41 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by UAGoalieGuy View Post
Talk about a brutal offer...
Exactly my point.

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10-19-2006, 11:42 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Gwyddbwyll View Post
We did trade for one of the best young goalies in the league. He even had a great playoff record. Brian Boucher really turned out well.

I'm not saying it's easy-peasy to pick up a franchise goalie cheaply or find one with a late pick...otherwise every team would have one. But it certainly happens far more often than a franchise centre.
Boucher was NEVER one of "the best young goalies in the league". Ever. He has always been a streaky guy. Everyone knew that.

Peter Mueller is also not a "franchise center". He's going to be a good #1 guy if he pans out but he's never going to be a "franchise" guy like a Thornton.

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10-19-2006, 11:46 AM
  #28
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Thorton, Spezza, Olli Jokinen, E. Staal (J. Staal as well), Datsyuk, Vinny L, Brad Richards, Crosby, Malkin, Briere...should I continue? all Francise Centers. I think Francise centers are more common than you think. Just about the same, if not more common, then francise goalies...

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10-19-2006, 11:50 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UAGoalieGuy View Post
Thorton, Spezza, Olli Jokinen, E. Staal (J. Staal as well), Datsyuk, Vinny L, Brad Richards, Crosby, Malkin, Briere...should I continue? all Francise Centers. I think Francise centers are more common than you think. Just about the same, if not more common, then francise goalies...
I disagree that Briere, Datsyuk, Lecavalier, J. Staal, Malkin, and Jokinen are franchse centers.

Malkin has the potential and J. Staal has an outside shot.

The other guys are solid 1st line guys but just aren't guys I'd label a "franchise" player. That word is tossed around way, way too much.

Mueller fits in with the players slightly down on the list. That's not knocking him (and anyone who posts here knows I'm a HUGE Mueller fan), but I just don't feel he has that "it" in him to be a franchise center.

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10-19-2006, 11:51 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UAGoalieGuy View Post
Thorton, Spezza, Olli Jokinen, E. Staal (J. Staal as well), Datsyuk, Vinny L, Brad Richards, Crosby, Malkin, Briere...should I continue? all Francise Centers. I think Francise centers are more common than you think. Just about the same, if not more common, then francise goalies...
of that list.. franchise centres:

Thornton
Crosby
Staal
maybe Spezza.

Guys like Jokinen, Datsyuk, Vinny L (most overrated NHL player), etc are not franchise players. They are very good #1 centres in the NHL, superstars if you will. FRANCHISE players they are not.

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10-19-2006, 11:52 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Jon Prescription View Post
Peter Mueller is also not a "franchise center". He's going to be a good #1 guy if he pans out but he's never going to be a "franchise" guy like a Thornton.
Al Montaya is not, and never will be, a franchise goaltender! See. I can make stupid claims as well. I can intimately see into the future and not only do I see him not becoming a good goalie, but I see this thread devolving even more. Rarely can you flip crap and spare parts to get pure gold. There would be a high price to pay for Wheeler, Mueller, Hanzal etc...

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10-19-2006, 11:59 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by XavierX View Post
Al Montaya is not, and never will be, a franchise goaltender! See. I can make stupid claims as well. I can intimately see into the future and not only do I see him not becoming a good goalie, but I see this thread devolving even more. Rarely can you flip crap and spare parts to get pure gold. There would be a high price to pay for Wheeler, Mueller, Hanzal etc...
What the hell are you talking about? Spare parts? Who's talking anything about spare parts? And what "stupid claims"? You make yourself look VERY ignorant with a post like that.

I've watched Mueller since he was in the USNTDP. The kid is flat out stellar, but he just doesn't have that "thing" that you'd see in a franchise guy. Sorry that you're a ridiculous homer and think he's God. He's a great prospect and someone I was pushing for the Rangers to trade up and get VERY hard. He's a great talent and has always reminded me of a slightly poor man's Sundin. His passing is spectacular and he's a big guy who isn't overly physical but doesn't shy away from traffic. He's not going to light the world on fire but he's going to be a great player in the NHL as long as he continues to progress.

If you want to believe he's a franchise center -- good for you! Just be prepared for a bit of a let-down.

Montoya has performed awesomely in the AHL. He was great in college on a team that gave up a bajillion odd man rushes and won the US a gold medal in the WJCs. I'm not saying he's a franchise goalie at all, though. I think he has the potential to be a great starting goalie in this league when all is said and done with his development.

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10-19-2006, 12:04 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Jon Prescription View Post
Boucher was NEVER one of "the best young goalies in the league". Ever. He has always been a streaky guy. Everyone knew that.

Peter Mueller is also not a "franchise center". He's going to be a good #1 guy if he pans out but he's never going to be a "franchise" guy like a Thornton.
If Cam Ward is now considered one of the best young goalies in the league, then Boucher's accomplishments were certainly very similar when he was acquired. There's no doubt he was highly regarded. Well maybe not by Rangers fans - I know you have a special place in your heart for Philadelphia

Mueller is certainly no Thornton or Crosby but he's the closest thing to a top-class 1st line centre the Coyotes have ever drafted in their 10 years and they have been desperate for one for years. There's just absolutely no way they trade him for another LeNeveu or Boucher. Especially when they've found several great goalies cheap - Khabibulin, Burke, Joseph. As Xavier just pointed out, if Montoya is a "franchise" goalie, then Mueller is a "franchise" centre.

As for Weekes - his record last year isnt any better than guys like Morrison. What does he have that would prompt us to give up two nice prospects for him?

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10-19-2006, 12:08 PM
  #34
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Yes, but who ever said that Montoya was a franchise goalie?

And as for Weekes -- He's a proven guy who's a good player for a stop-gap right now. Frankly, I think it'd only take a 2nd round pick or even less to get him from New York (I expect him to be moved around the deadline for very little). But to say he's not as good as guys like Morrison, etc. is just plain false.

Also, Ward proved a lot more than Boucher ever did. Boucher had a nice run but is STREAKY STREAKY STREAKY. Something Ward hasn't shown to be. There's a reason that they are held in such a different regard.

Boucher went to the Coyotes after a decent year and posted decent numbers with them for the next two years. He's a decent goalie. Nothing more, nothing less. Never was really special, as far as I'm concerned.

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10-19-2006, 12:09 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Gwyddbwyll View Post
We did trade for one of the best young goalies in the league. He even had a great playoff record. Brian Boucher really turned out well.

I'm not saying it's easy-peasy to pick up a franchise goalie cheaply or find one with a late pick...otherwise every team would have one. But it certainly happens far more often than a franchise centre. No way does any team move a potential franchise centre for a potential franchise goalie. Potential as in neither having proven anything.
First, I think that the term "franchise" is WAY over-used on HF. IMO, the odds of Montoya or Muller becoming "franchise" level players (Broduer/Kipper for AM or Sakic/Thornton for PM) is so remote that it's skewing the thread. If their upside is a top 10 player at their position, say Ryan Miller or Brad Richards (w/o the Conn Smythe), it makes it a lot more reasonable to have a non-pissing match thread.

I never considered Boucher one of the best young goalies in the NHL, but that's just me. Just like I never considered Lalime one of the best goalies after his hot start in PITT.

I guess I see a guy in Montoya that was drafted in the same position as Muller was. You can disagree about the strategy of drafting goalies that high in the draft (I'd prefer not to), but the Rangers thought that AM had the potential to become an upper tier #1 goalie. He has continued to develop and hasn't given anyone a reason to think that he can become that type of player.

I don't know enough about the prospects to make any sort of definitive comparison of value, just that it's not "impossible" that that sort of trade could happen. I can see your point that there is probably a lot bigger drop off between a top 10 center and his likely replacement than a top 10 goaltender and his replacement. But that assumes that you have a decent replacement, which PHO doesn't seem to have at this point.

Like I said earlier - I don't think that PHO would be looking for a Montoya type player (great prospect, but no NHL experience) at this point in time.

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10-19-2006, 12:10 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Jon Prescription View Post
What?

Montoya is about 5 times the prospect of LeNeveu. It's nothing alike. At all. Immonen is also a better prospect than Joel Perrault.

Montoya is VERY close in value to Peter Mueller.

Don't kid yourself here.
LeNeveu until recently was considered to be the equal of guys like Cam Ward. There's an elite group of four goalies from that 02 draft including Josh Harding and Jeff Deslauriers - all four being outstanding guys. LeNeveu actually beat out Ward several times.

LeNeveu also absolutely dominated college hockey and broke records that had stood for decades. Montoya is FAR more like him than you might think. And even at the peak of expectations for LeNeveu, there's absolutely no way he would have gotten a player like Mueller or Staal. Neither does Montoya.

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10-19-2006, 12:10 PM
  #37
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By the way, you were the first person in this entire thread to make mention of the term "franchise goaltender" in regards to, I'm guessing, Montoya. I don't think anyone thinks he'll be one. He has the potential if the stars align and EVERY SINGLE THING in his career goes right. The most likely top potential for him is just a great starter.

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10-19-2006, 12:14 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwyddbwyll View Post
LeNeveu until recently was considered to be the equal of guys like Cam Ward. There's an elite group of four goalies from that 02 draft including Josh Harding and Jeff Deslauriers - all four being outstanding guys. LeNeveu actually beat out Ward several times.

LeNeveu also absolutely dominated college hockey and broke records that had stood for decades. Montoya is FAR more like him than you might think. And even at the peak of expectations for LeNeveu, there's absolutely no way he would have gotten a player like Mueller or Staal. Neither does Montoya.
LeNeveu was only considered that to people who bought into the hype. I've criticized him since he was drafted and I've been blasted on it for years and years now on this board because of that opinion.

Montoya was never a record breaker, but he has more basic, fundamental skills that have been seen since before his college days that LeNeveu ever posessed in his career. That's what makes him a better prospect now and a better prospect for his whole career.

I've never, EVER been a fan of LeNeveu. Not saying that I have a great eye for scouting goaltenders, but I've been right quite a bit lately.

Montoya doesn't have the flair nor the skills to ever be the best goalie in this league. He does have the basic fundamentals that will win games in the NHL and possibly lead a team to a championship in the future.

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10-19-2006, 12:22 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan View Post
First, I think that the term "franchise" is WAY over-used on HF. IMO, the odds of Montoya or Muller becoming "franchise" level players

I never considered Boucher one of the best young goalies in the NHL, but that's just me. Just like I never considered Lalime one of the best goalies after his hot start in PITT.

I guess I see a guy in Montoya that was drafted in the same position as Muller was.

Like I said earlier - I don't think that PHO would be looking for a Montoya type player (great prospect, but no NHL experience) at this point in time.
Agreed on the 'franchise' tag. Just that if you regard Montoya as elite, stellar, fabulous or whatever then Mueller is in the same category.

2004 was a notoriously weak draft year. Montoya being drafted in the same position doesnt mean very much, all the more so because of the difficulty of evaluating the value of first round goalies. Ladd was drafted 4th in that bad year.. is he even close to Nicklas Backstrom, who also went 4th?

Cam Ward hasnt done much other than a sensational playoff run. He actually had a pretty average time of it before the playoffs started. Similarly Boucher had a sensational playoff run after just a decent time in the NHL. It smacks of prejudice to consider one a great young goalie and not for the other.

I think you're right that this is all academic anyway.

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10-19-2006, 12:25 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Jon Prescription View Post
By the way, you were the first person in this entire thread to make mention of the term "franchise goaltender" in regards to, I'm guessing, Montoya. I don't think anyone thinks he'll be one. He has the potential if the stars align and EVERY SINGLE THING in his career goes right. The most likely top potential for him is just a great starter.
All the more reason not to trade Mueller for him then.

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10-19-2006, 12:31 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Jon Prescription View Post
LeNeveu was only considered that to people who bought into the hype. .
I dont think you can argue that hype raised LeNeveu up there. For example, the Canadian junior selectors picked him over guys like Ward because he outplayed his peers in camp and they went against hype to do so.


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10-19-2006, 02:50 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Gwyddbwyll View Post
Agreed on the 'franchise' tag. Just that if you regard Montoya as elite, stellar, fabulous or whatever then Mueller is in the same category.

2004 was a notoriously weak draft year. Montoya being drafted in the same position doesnt mean very much, all the more so because of the difficulty of evaluating the value of first round goalies. Ladd was drafted 4th in that bad year.. is he even close to Nicklas Backstrom, who also went 4th?

Cam Ward hasnt done much other than a sensational playoff run. He actually had a pretty average time of it before the playoffs started. Similarly Boucher had a sensational playoff run after just a decent time in the NHL. It smacks of prejudice to consider one a great young goalie and not for the other.

I think you're right that this is all academic anyway.
Most would say that the 2006 draft year wasn't anything to write home about either. I'm not saying that every 5th overall pick is worth the same, I'm just saying that if a player is taken that early, and has progressed well, he's going to have substantial value regardless of the position he plays.

The big difference between Ward & Boucher is that Ward got the Conn Smythe when his team won the Cup. For goalies, winning a Cup always puts a guy on a different level. Guys like Khabibulin parlayed the Cup win into about an extra $2-2.5M dollars per year on his current contract. Even guys like Chris Osgood or Bill Ranford lived off the reputation as guys that won when it counted, and their reputation was greatly enhanced. Roloson has been nails in the P/O's (Oilers to the SCF & Wild to the WCF), but he's not seen as more than an average goalie. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Ward isn't able to live up the hype after last season.

I would agree that we definetely have 20/20 hindsight with Boucher - but that's my point. For every Kipper trade, there are 10 times as many deal goes down where a team takes a chance on someone else cast-off's and it doesn't work out. I just don't think it's smart to expect to go shopping at Salvation Army and expect to get an Armani suit - that's all.

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10-19-2006, 03:12 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwyddbwyll View Post
All the more reason not to trade Mueller for him then.
I think that a potential 1st line player is about equal value to a potential great starting goaltender.

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10-19-2006, 04:19 PM
  #44
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Most would say that the 2006 draft year wasn't anything to write home about either. I'm not saying that every 5th overall pick is worth the same, I'm just saying that if a player is taken that early, and has progressed well, he's going to have substantial value regardless of the position he plays.
I dont disagree Montoya is a talent, or that he has considerable value. I just disagree he would get you Mueller value in a trade.

Quote:
The big difference between Ward & Boucher is that Ward got the Conn Smythe when his team won the Cup.
Comparatively, Ward looks like a bigger talent and he did achieve more. I'm just using him to illustrate a point. His stats and playoff achievement are really not that different to Boucher's own big splash. I'd say people were calling Ward a great young goalie before he won anything so it's not that clear-cut. My original point was that Phoenix already traded for a prime goalie seemingly on the verge of becoming a great goalie and it didnt work out.

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I would agree that we definetely have 20/20 hindsight with Boucher - but that's my point. For every Kipper trade, there are 10 times as many deal goes down where a team takes a chance on someone else cast-off's and it doesn't work out. I just don't think it's smart to expect to go shopping at Salvation Army and expect to get an Armani suit - that's all.
In ten years the Coyotes have gotten Khabibulin, Burke and Joseph from the Salvation Army with Esche thrown in from the 4th round. In that same time highly regarded Armani prospects DesRochers, Pelletier, and Boucher, all drafted in the 1st round have all flopped spectacularly.

Maybe it's just me but I'd rather avoid the Armani store Too much flash, not enough cash.

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