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Kovalchuk´s value?

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11-22-2003, 03:24 AM
  #1
Peter25
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Kovalchuk´s value?

Is Ilya Kovalchuk the most valuable player in the NHL right now?

Let´s think you are a GM of the Atlanta Thrashers. Is there any player in the NHL you´d trade Kovalchuk for? Would you trade Kovalchuk for Joe Thornton, Marian Gaborik or the rights of Alexander Ovechkin straight up?

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11-22-2003, 03:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter25
Is Ilya Kovalchuk the most valuable player in the NHL right now?

Let´s think you are a GM of the Atlanta Thrashers. Is there any player in the NHL you´d trade Kovalchuk for? Would you trade Kovalchuk for Joe Thornton, Marian Gaborik or the rights of Alexander Ovechkin straight up?
If I were the Atlanta GM, I would probably wait and see how Heatley returns. If he shows no affects of his injury and/or having emotional trouble to swallow the tragic death of friend and former teammate Dan Snyder, I'd trade Kovalchuk for Joe Thornton. But Thornton is the only one I'd trade Ilya for. I do feel that Ilya will be better, but not when you take their positions and what they trully mean to an organisation into account.

Having 2 stud wingers without an even remotedly close center really slows down their progression and their franchise in general. I feel a Center (and a goalie) is the most important piece in order to build and start up a succesful franchise.

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11-22-2003, 03:42 AM
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Pitkanen and Gagne for Coburn and Kovalchuk

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11-22-2003, 04:07 AM
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Respectfully declined.

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11-22-2003, 04:15 AM
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In my opinion Gaborik is nowhere near Kovalchuk. Maybe a group of Schultz/Bouchard and Gaborik, but definitely not Gaborik by himself.
How does Gaboriks value compare to that of Lecavalier?

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11-22-2003, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Whinks
Pitkanen and Gagne for Coburn and Kovalchuk
YUCK!

Kovalchuk probably has one of the highest trade values in the entire league right now.

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11-22-2003, 05:06 AM
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I believe Thornton is one guy who will (or may become) more valuable in a long run:

- He's a center
- He is even more physically imposing
- He's got the skill set that can rival Kovalchuk's

I don't buy into "Joe is a future captain and Ilya isn't" bs though. I think IK is captaining his team already.

But Joe, if he puts it all together, can be scarier than Ilya. All in all, I would trade Thornton for Kovalchuk straight up, and I think the Thrashers would trade Kovalchuk for Thornton straight up.

Other than that, Heatley pre-accident was just as good as Ilya. But it's hard to compare because he's 2 years older; and now, he had this damn accident.

By the way, Heatley, Snyder & Kovalchuk had dinner together the night of the accident. If only Snyder got into Ilya's car instead of Heatley's car...

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11-22-2003, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Orr's Knees
I believe Thornton is one guy who will (or may become) more valuable in a long run:

- He's a center
- He is even more physically imposing
- He's got the skill set that can rival Kovalchuk's

I don't buy into "Joe is a future captain and Ilya isn't" bs though. I think IK is captaining his team already.

But Joe, if he puts it all together, can be scarier than Ilya. All in all, I would trade Thornton for Kovalchuk straight up, and I think the Thrashers would trade Kovalchuk for Thornton straight up.

Other than that, Heatley pre-accident was just as good as Ilya. But it's hard to compare because he's 2 years older; and now, he had this damn accident.

By the way, Heatley, Snyder & Kovalchuk had dinner together the night of the accident. If only Snyder got into Ilya's car instead of Heatley's car...
I don't think that there's any doubt that Thornton is more valuable.

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11-22-2003, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Orr's Knees
I believe Thornton is one guy who will (or may become) more valuable in a long run:

- He's a center
- He is even more physically imposing
- He's got the skill set that can rival Kovalchuk's

I don't buy into "Joe is a future captain and Ilya isn't" bs though. I think IK is captaining his team already.

But Joe, if he puts it all together, can be scarier than Ilya. All in all, I would trade Thornton for Kovalchuk straight up, and I think the Thrashers would trade Kovalchuk for Thornton straight up.

Other than that, Heatley pre-accident was just as good as Ilya. But it's hard to compare because he's 2 years older; and now, he had this damn accident.

By the way, Heatley, Snyder & Kovalchuk had dinner together the night of the accident. If only Snyder got into Ilya's car instead of Heatley's car...
I guess I pretty much agree with everything said here.

I don't like Thornton at all (especially after the Koivu thing) but he's valuable - and I guess that's what counts.

Btw...

Kovalchuk, who is extremely close to Heatley, has a different final memory of Snyder than the rest of the team. Aside from Heatley, he was the last person to see Snyder alive.

The three teammates grabbed a bite together after attending an event for Thrashers season-ticket holders on the night of Sept. 29. When they left the restaurant they said they’d see each other in the morning, got into their cars – Kovalchuk in his Lamborghini, the other two into Heatley’s Ferrari – and drove off into the night. Kovalchuk received the awful phone call at home a few hours later.
-Atlanta's Flame, The Hockey News

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11-22-2003, 05:22 AM
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Well, I wouldn't say that "there isn't any doubt" Thornton is more valuable. It certainly can be argued that he does, but it's hardly a given. A year ago, I would've said the Thrashers would happily trade Kovalchuk for Big Joe, but now I'm not so sure. Ilya has really blossomed in all facets of the game this year. His popularity with the fanbase outweighs any possible intangibles Thornton might bring that Ilya doesn't possess.

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11-22-2003, 05:31 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter25
Is Ilya Kovalchuk the most valuable player in the NHL right now?

Let´s think you are a GM of the Atlanta Thrashers. Is there any player in the NHL you´d trade Kovalchuk for? Would you trade Kovalchuk for Joe Thornton, Marian Gaborik or the rights of Alexander Ovechkin straight up?

You don't trade Ilya for anyone in any package if your Atlanta. But you also don't trade Gaborik for anyone in any package if you're the Wild, nor do you trade Pitkanen for anyone in any package if your the Flyers. Same for Thorton, and a host of other young players. There's a handfull of young players that look special and if you have one you don't play the "grass is greener" game and you hold onto the one you have.

I do think that right now he would be the leagues MVP though.

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11-22-2003, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Blatny Spears
Well, I wouldn't say that "there isn't any doubt" Thornton is more valuable. It certainly can be argued that he does, but it's hardly a given. A year ago, I would've said the Thrashers would happily trade Kovalchuk for Big Joe, but now I'm not so sure. Ilya has really blossomed in all facets of the game this year. His popularity with the fanbase outweighs any possible intangibles Thornton might bring that Ilya doesn't possess.
Trade value is determined by demand, not popularity. This popularity that you think that he has over Thornton might make a difference to the GM's of doormat teams, but not to teams that have a Cup in their minds.

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11-22-2003, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Modano = God
Having 2 stud wingers without an even remotedly close center really slows down their progression and their franchise in general. I feel a Center (and a goalie) is the most important piece in order to build and start up a succesful franchise.
Savard is a very good playmaker, and still pretty young. He's hurt right now (bleck), and had 14 points (5 and 9) in the 12 games he did play so far beside Kovalchuk. He's certainly not at the talent level that Dany or Ilya is at, but he's no slouch. One of the best young playmakers in the league.

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11-22-2003, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by degroat
Trade value is determined by demand, not popularity. This popularity that you think that he has over Thornton might make a difference to the GM's of doormat teams, but not to teams that have a Cup in their minds.
I didn't say that popularity determines trade value, just that if real differences in value are negligible (which I believe they are between Thornton and Kovlachuk,) then popularity can be a big factor in deciding whether or not to pull the trigger.

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11-22-2003, 05:39 AM
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Agree with B. Spears that it is not a given. When you re comparing 15 goals to 3 there has to be some sort of doubt.

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11-22-2003, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Blatny Spears
I didn't say that popularity determines trade value, just that if real differences in value are negligible (which I believe they are between Thornton and Kovlachuk,) then popularity can be a big factor in deciding whether or not to pull the trigger.
The difference in trade value, yes would not be much. However, if both were on the market at the same time which player do you think GM's would want more? I just don't think that there is any doubt that the GM's would go for Thornton. To me, it's like asking rather you'd have Yzerman or P. Bure.

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11-22-2003, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by degroat
The difference in trade value, yes would not be much. However, if both were on the market at the same time which player do you think GM's would want more? I just don't think that there is any doubt that the GM's would go for Thornton. To me, it's like asking rather you'd have Yzerman or P. Bure.
I'm not so sure. I'd say about half the teams would want Joe and the other half Ilya. I'd take Ilya personally.

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11-22-2003, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by degroat
The difference in trade value, yes would not be much. However, if both were on the market at the same time which player do you think GM's would want more? I just don't think that there is any doubt that the GM's would go for Thornton. To me, it's like asking rather you'd have Yzerman or P. Bure.
Come up with a better comparison if you want to be taken seriously.

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11-22-2003, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by aylib
Come up with a better comparison if you want to be taken seriously.
Instead of mouthing of like a 2 year old, how about you tell me why it's a bad comparison.

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11-22-2003, 05:47 AM
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Its bad simply because you re pretty biased and it shows, how is that for you?
While Yzerman is a great leader who won numerous Stanley Cups, Bure was a great scorer that was not in Yzermans class, the difference between them is far greater than that between Kovalchuk and Thornton.

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11-22-2003, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Blatny Spears
His popularity with the fanbase outweighs any possible intangibles Thornton might bring that Ilya doesn't possess.
What are the intangibles that Joe posesses and Ilya doesn't? Obviously, Kovalchuk can't speak English nearly as well. He hasn't been in the leage as long. Does it impact the way people relate to him in the locker room? I was under the impression that Kovalchuk was very popular with his teammates.

I agree with Bobby Orr: Kovalchuk may not wear the "C" on his chest (although sometimes he looks like he is wearing the "S"), but he is the Thrashers captain: where he leades, the rest follows. He gives the other guys on the team a sense of confidence in themselves, pumps everybody up, and he sticks up for his teammates. To me, those are captain qualities. Kovalchuk's leadership is more similar to Gordie Howe's, Mark Messeir's and Bobby Hull's than Steve Yzerman's or Joe Sakic's. Nothing's wrong with that.

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11-22-2003, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by aylib
Its bad simply because you re pretty biased and it shows, how is that for you?
How exactly am I biased? I'm not a Bruins fan. I'm not a Thrashers fan. I'm not Canadian. I'm not Russian. In fact, Pavel Bure was my favorite player in the 90's.

Kovalchuk - Electric goal scorer that cherry picks and doesn't play defense.
Bure - Electric goal scorer that cherry picks and doesn't play defense.

Thornton - center that's good at both ends of the ice, good leader, scores goals

Yzerman - center that's good at both ends of the ice, good leader, scores goals

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11-22-2003, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by aylib
While Yzerman is a great leader who won numerous Stanley Cups, Bure was a great scorer that was not in Yzermans class, the difference between them is far greater than between Kovlachuk and Thornton.
Seriously... how old are you? I can remember the day when Bure was supposed to break every goal scoring record. He was raved about just like Kovalchuk.

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11-22-2003, 05:53 AM
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Agreed, aylib. These "Player X = Yzerman/Sakic/Modano, Kovalchuk = Bure, who would you rather have?" posts are beyond weak. We're not talking about Yzerman and Bure, we're talking about Thornton and Kovalchuk.

Frankly, I think I'm being very generous when I say the respective trade values of the two are almost negligible. In my opinion, the only thing Joe has going for him over Ilya is the fact that he's a center and that he's bigger and more physical. Kovalchuk is by far the more skilled of the two if you ask me. As someone else pointed out, Ilya has 15 goals and 27 points to Thornton's 3 and 21. When you factor in that Thornton has Glen Murray and Sergei Samsonov (or is it Mike Knuble?) as his linemates compared to Serge Aubin and J.P. Vigier for Kovalchuk, Kovalchuk's accomplishments become more impressive. Then, after you take into account the fact that Thornton is four years older than Kovalchuk, I know there's no question about which player I'd rather have. Conservatively, I'd say GMs around the league would be split down the middle about which one they would take.

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11-22-2003, 05:54 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by degroat
The difference in trade value, yes would not be much. However, if both were on the market at the same time which player do you think GM's would want more? I just don't think that there is any doubt that the GM's would go for Thornton. To me, it's like asking rather you'd have Yzerman or P. Bure.
If you are comparing Thornton to Yzerman and Kovalchuk to Bure - that's just idiotic. Thornton & Kovalchuk are basically hockey twins. They may play different positions, but they bring the same stuff to the table: they are big, mean, nasty, skilled and determined. Leaders of their respective teams. Popular with teammates and fans. Where are you coming from with your comment? Unless your comparison is based on nationality alone, it makes no sense at all.

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