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Kovalchukīs value?

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Old
11-22-2003, 05:54 AM
  #26
aylib
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Quote:
Originally Posted by degroat
How exactly am I biased? I'm not a Bruins fan. I'm not a Thrashers fan. I'm not Canadian. I'm not Russian. In fact, Pavel Bure was my favorite player in the 90's.

Kovalchuk - Electric goal scorer that cherry picks and doesn't play defense.
Bure - Electric goal scorer that cherry picks and doesn't play defense.

Thornton - center that's good at both ends of the ice, good leader, scores goals

Yzerman - center that's good at both ends of the ice, good leader, scores goals
Ok, im going to point out this seasons goal output, you tell me if this arises a slight doubt. 3 goals by Thornton to 15 Kovalchuk's, is that a significant enough difference to warrant a thought? Now, instead of attacking me personally, why dont you concentrate on proving your "logic" instead.

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11-22-2003, 05:55 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by degroat
How exactly am I biased? I'm not a Bruins fan. I'm not a Thrashers fan. I'm not Canadian. I'm not Russian. In fact, Pavel Bure was my favorite player in the 90's.

Kovalchuk - Electric goal scorer that cherry picks and doesn't play defense.
Bure - Electric goal scorer that cherry picks and doesn't play defense.

Thornton - center that's good at both ends of the ice, good leader, scores goals

Yzerman - center that's good at both ends of the ice, good leader, scores goals
Uh - in fact, Ilya does give an effort to defence. He doesn't not 'cherry pick' like he used to. Bob Hartley at times let him play on the PK.

Watch him play before you say he 'doesn't play defence' or 'cherry picks'.

I'm not saying that Ilya will be a captain, but he is showing committment to the team -and the effort shows!

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11-22-2003, 05:56 AM
  #28
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It's sad how much hype effects peoples' judgement.

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11-22-2003, 05:57 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by degroat
It's sad how much hype effects peoples' judgement.
Now thats a worthy response.

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Old
11-22-2003, 06:01 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by degroat
It's sad how much hype effects peoples' judgement.
You know what affects people's judgement? Watching the damn games. I highly recommend you do the same. Your Bure - Kovalchuk comparison is pathetic. And Thornton & Kovalchuk are pretty similar players, if you ask me. Joe is bigger, Kovy is more skilled. But they play the game with the same attitude.

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11-22-2003, 06:01 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by degroat
It's sad how much hype effects peoples' judgement.
What does it take to make you understand? It's called telling you facts. Sorry if you don't like facing them.

There's hype because Thornton and Kovalchuk are great players - near superstars. Now before you say something else, why don't you watch a few videotapes of these two players? And make a statement when you're actually going to make some sense.

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11-22-2003, 06:18 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aylib
Ok, im going to point out this seasons goal output, now tell me if this arises a slight doubt. 3 goals by Thornton to 15 Kovalchuk's, is that a significant difference that requires a thought? Now, instead of attacking me personally, why dont you concentrate on proving your "logic" instead.
I agree those comparison seems pretty weak right now. At this time, Ilja plays defence more than ever and I think he has a positive plus/minus rating. Moreover I dont know why people keep coming with Kovalchuk- Bure comparison. Both are Russian okay... but while Bure always been a floater, Kovalchuk bring a much more energic game and he is willing to do everything possible to have the puck on his stick. Moreover, Ilja is really underated playmaking wise and he is, in that area, much much better than Bure. He already have 12 assists.
I would also like to point out that Ilja already have 9 powerplay goals and 3 winning goals while Thornton have 2 powerplay goals (66% of his goals production) and 0 winning goals. When we consider how important are special teams in today hockey, we have to give Ilja an advantage here.

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11-22-2003, 06:27 AM
  #33
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"Having 2 stud wingers without and even remotedly close center really slows down their progression...". Last time I checked Marc Savard was fourth or fifth in league scoring till he went down with an injury. I'd venture to say that Savard will outpoint Ilya, in a points per-game ratio, the balance of this year. Word to yo Mother...reckognise!
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Originally Posted by Modano = God
If I were the Atlanta GM, I would probably wait and see how Heatley returns. If he shows no affects of his injury and/or having emotional trouble to swallow the tragic death of friend and former teammate Dan Snyder, I'd trade Kovalchuk for Joe Thornton. But Thornton is the only one I'd trade Ilya for. I do feel that Ilya will be better, but not when you take their positions and what they trully mean to an organisation into account.

Having 2 stud wingers without an even remotedly close center really slows down their progression and their franchise in general. I feel a Center (and a goalie) is the most important piece in order to build and start up a succesful franchise.

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Old
11-22-2003, 07:15 AM
  #34
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Kovalchuk is a little better and more valuable than Thornton. Heīs also four years younger. Think how dominant Kovalchuk will be at 24?

I wouldnīt trade him for anyone. Kovalchuk is the Gretzky of the 2000īs.

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11-22-2003, 07:26 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter25
Kovalchuk is the Gretzky of the 2000īs.

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11-22-2003, 07:54 AM
  #36
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I would say stop comparing the goals and points between the two this year because it means nothing right now to whos got more value. Both Kovalchuk and Thornton are doing the most important thing right now which I think there pretty much equal at, and that is there winning for there teams.

Kovalchuk is producing more because he has to, and he's a huge reason to why the Thrashers have such a good record. Thornton on the other hand is only playing as good as he as to, he's getting more help from his teammates and therefore he don't need to try too hard to produce like last season. Both are doing just what they have to do to win.

Kovalchuk is just about in the same position as Thornton was last year in that he is given tons amount of ice time due to injuries and has to produce. Thornton produced a 101 point season to just sneak his team into the playoffs last year, Kovalchuk if he wants to make the playoffs may have to do the samething this year.

Now so far Kovalchuk is doing an amazing job, but it's a long season and I honestly don't see him keeping up the pace for the team to make the playoffs. This I believe wouldn't have much affect on his value comparing to Thornton even though Joe did it last season. The Thrashers are alittle less skilled, and the guys only 20 compared to Joe when he was 23. I would still consider them pretty much equal in value which I do now.

But if Kovalchuk was to have a monster this year and get his team into the playoffs and barring Thornton doesn't equal or exceed last years success (mostly what he does in the playoffs) I would say Kovalchuk would then jump ahead of Thornton in the value department.

Call me crazy but that's the way I see it...

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Old
11-22-2003, 08:29 AM
  #37
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I don't think that right now Kovalchuk is the best player in the league. Sure he is leading the NHL in scoring (tied with Tanguay) but he has also played in the most games so far with the most overall minutes among all scorers.

But, I also think he would be scoring more if he had better linemates. He really doesn't play on a very talented line and really should have more assists than he has. There aren't any real completers on his line beside himself.

Also, he is ONLY 20 years old. No one should expect him to be the best in the NHL by that age. I think in 2-3 years he very well could be the most lethal player in all of the NHL. In fact, I sort of expect it.

For MVP voting though, I think he has to be given consideration if he continues at this pace. I think he means more to his team's win-loss than any other singular person on any other team. Take out Kovalchuk and the Thrashers are easily a below .500 team IMO. What other player's loss this year would have that kind of impact on his team's record?

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Old
11-22-2003, 08:30 AM
  #38
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Having Yzerman compared to a guy who fights people in bars is insulting to Steve. Also, Joe Thornton is no better than average defensively, and his leadership skills haven't done anything for Boston in the playoffs, but his mouth has definitely gotten him in the papers.

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Old
11-22-2003, 08:36 AM
  #39
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I also don't think Bure is a good comparison to Kovalchuk. Kovalchuk has Bure's lethal scoring ability, but he is also 5 inches taller, 30 lbs heavier.
That will make a big difference. I also think that Kovalchuk includes the players around him more in plays. I think he will be a better assists guy than Bure when all is said and done.

BTW, I think Kovalchuk has become the Captain of the Thrashers this year too. He gets unbelievable respect from his teammates.

"He can pretty much do whatever he wants out there," teammate Daniel Tjarnqvist said. "He can probably beat every defenseman in the league, no matter who it is."

"He went away in April," general manager Don Waddell said of Kovalchuk. "When he came back in September, he had grown up. I know it was only four or five months, but we saw a definite change in his maturity level when he came back. He was ready to take this team on his back and be a big part of our success."

"I'll ask for his input, and he always comes up with some very good answers," Hartley said. "In between periods, he's a lot more vocal than he used to be. There's definitely some leadership abilities in Kovy. That's good to see."

He's one of the youngest players I've ever coached, but he has a tremendous desire to win, a tremendous desire to compete," Hartley said. "At this level, that's rarely seen."

The coach doesn't want to lose sight of Kovalchuk's age, which was easy to do after he scored 67 goals his first two seasons.

"He's already a franchise player at such an early stage, but he's going to get better," Hartley said. "He made such an impact two years ago. We expected perfection. Well, no one's perfect. But he's quite exciting to watch."

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11-22-2003, 08:43 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
Having Yzerman compared to a guy who fights people in bars is insulting to Steve. Also, Joe Thornton is no better than average defensively, and his leadership skills haven't done anything for Boston in the playoffs, but his mouth has definitely gotten him in the papers.
Fights people in bars? All he did was stick up for his brother.

He was given the "C" last season and they played the Cup Champions in the 1st round with a beat up team. OH yeah though, lets compare his leadership skills to that.

And what is the point of your post? Downgrade Thornton to make Kovalchuk look better? My opinion is you either hate Joe or love Kovalchuk, or both. Which is it?

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Old
11-22-2003, 08:47 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowL
Fights people in bars? All he did was stick up for his brother.

He was given the "C" last season and they played the Cup Champions in the 1st round with a beat up team. OH yeah though, lets compare his leadership skills to that.

And what is the point of your post? Downgrade Thornton to make Kovalchuk look better? My opinion is you either hate Joe or love Kovalchuk, or both. Which is it?
Actually, it's simply that I think comparing an immature player who hasn't won anything to a guy regarded as one of the all-time great captains in the NHL is ridiculous. If someone wants to compare Kovalchuk to Mark Messier, I'll say exactly the same thing.

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Old
11-22-2003, 09:11 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
Actually, it's simply that I think comparing an immature player who hasn't won anything to a guy regarded as one of the all-time great captains in the NHL is ridiculous. If someone wants to compare Kovalchuk to Mark Messier, I'll say exactly the same thing.
I don't think whoever compared them was comparing them by what they've done in there careers. If it's someone elses opinion that Joe is going to have a great career like Yzerman's it's a compliment to Joe, and not an insult to Yzerman. Yzerman at 24 years old was not the great captain he is today, and although they play different styles and have different personalites there are still ways to compare them. Both given the "C"s when they were young and like did Yzerman will have to learn to be a leader, and for someone to think he can I don't find it to be ridiculous. Joe is arguably the best center in the game today at a young age of 24, there's no one else I would compare Yzerman to at such a young age this moment.

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Old
11-22-2003, 09:14 AM
  #43
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I'll put it this way,

I'd move Bertuzzi, Ohlund, and a 1st round pick for Kovalchuk - IN A SECOND.

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11-22-2003, 09:31 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowL
I don't think whoever compared them was comparing them by what they've done in there careers. If it's someone elses opinion that Joe is going to have a great career like Yzerman's it's a compliment to Joe, and not an insult to Yzerman. Yzerman at 24 years old was not the great captain he is today, and although they play different styles and have different personalites there are still ways to compare them. Both given the "C"s when they were young and like did Yzerman will have to learn to be a leader, and for someone to think he can I don't find it to be ridiculous. Joe is arguably the best center in the game today at a young age of 24, there's no one else I would compare Yzerman to at such a young age this moment.
That's fine, I was directing my post at the Kovalchuk-Bure, Thornton-Yzerman comparison. It's possible that Thornton could end up like Yzerman for sure (I don't think it will happen, Thornton will end up more like a mid-90s pre-mushhead Lindros IMO), but to suggest that he has all the same qualities right now is ridiculous. Kovalchuk on the other hand gets compared to Bure who he is probably already better than, at the same age at least. It seems some people think Kovalchuk has maxed out his potential at the age of 20.

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11-22-2003, 09:34 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I'll put it this way,

I'd move Bertuzzi, Ohlund, and a 1st round pick for Kovalchuk - IN A SECOND.
Resist the man-crush you have on this guy and think about it again. Hockey is a team sport (especially in the playoffs), and the Canucks have a great team of players right now, a nice blend to maybe do something in the playoffs. That trade would kill the Nucks for awhile, and they would have to rebuild again.

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11-22-2003, 10:51 AM
  #46
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It should be interesting to see what happens when Kovalchuk demands an 8 million dollar salary next year.

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11-22-2003, 12:31 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok
It should be interesting to see what happens when Kovalchuk demands an 8 million dollar salary next year.

No way will the WHL be able to afford that kind of salary.

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