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11-20-2003, 03:52 AM
  #1
KING
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Simon showing scoring touch

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11-20-2003, 04:38 AM
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Melrose_Jr.
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Gotta admit, I was not a Simon proponent, but I've been really impressed with his play. As much credit as Messier gets, Simon's a big part of his success this season.

That said, I still cannot understand why McCarthy was not used in the manor that Simon is being used in, as a semi-skilled power forward who can drop the gloves, but only does it when necessary. Sandy took a lot of heat for trying to do what Chris is doing, but for some reason, no one's publically outraged by it anymore.

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11-20-2003, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
Gotta admit, I was not a Simon proponent, but I've been really impressed with his play. As much credit as Messier gets, Simon's a big part of his success this season.

That said, I still cannot understand why McCarthy was not used in the manor that Simon is being used in, as a semi-skilled power forward who can drop the gloves, but only does it when necessary. Sandy took a lot of heat for trying to do what Chris is doing, but for some reason, no one's publically outraged by it anymore.

I agree. He's been good and made some plays that have been small but important. For example in the game against Hawks (I believe it was the Hawks) Simon drew two defensemen two him and took both of them out of the play. That led to a goal.

He got slapped with two awful match penalty calls and has not changed his play a bit. He has been great.

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11-20-2003, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
. Sandy took a lot of heat for trying to do what Chris is doing, but for some reason, no one's publically outraged by it anymore.
The reason is that Simon has better hands and better skills then what Sandy did IMO.He has made some beautiful passes that Sandy could only dream about making.

I do agree that he could've been more effective w/alittle more playing time here in NY but Simon has much better hands and is able to slow down a play and make the right read where as Sandy had hands of stone and tried to do everything at 100MPH.

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11-20-2003, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by JR#9
The reason is that Simon has better hands and better skills then what Sandy did IMO.He has made some beautiful passes that Sandy could only dream about making.

I do agree that he could've been more effective w/alittle more playing time here in NY but Simon has much better hands and is able to slow down a play and make the right read where as Sandy had hands of stone and tried to do everything at 100MPH.
Simon also has shown a willingness to intimidate by doing more than staring at another players and looking tough hoping that a tough look and the name on the back of the jersey would be enough. Simply put, I think that Simon uses his size and strength better than Sandy did. Sandy wanted to score the SportsCenter goal while Simon is content scoring while two defenders are knocking him to the ice. And you're right, JR, Simon makes much better passes than Sandy could. He's just a better and smarter hockey player.

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11-20-2003, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
Simon also has shown a willingness to intimidate by doing more than staring at another players and looking tough hoping that a tough look and the name on the back of the jersey would be enough.
Much as I liked Sandy (though not for the $1m+ that he was making), I think that is one of the major differences. Granted, Chris had only 2 fights during the regular season, but whereas Sandy would just yap, Simon has shown that he can still bring it in fight.
And yes, Simon SEEMS to have better hands than Sandy did.
In short, I admit to being a Simon-convert. My only gripe is that there are games where he disappears, IMO. No hitting, no nothing.
That said, he has been solid for us all year. Hope it conitnues.

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11-20-2003, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
Gotta admit, I was not a Simon proponent, but I've been really impressed with his play. As much credit as Messier gets, Simon's a big part of his success this season.

That said, I still cannot understand why McCarthy was not used in the manor that Simon is being used in, as a semi-skilled power forward who can drop the gloves, but only does it when necessary. Sandy took a lot of heat for trying to do what Chris is doing, but for some reason, no one's publically outraged by it anymore.

because unlike sandra, he actually will fight and wins them when he does!! sandy talked that was it! how is he doin in boston? not much huh? i will never agree with you on this one melrose! he's a bum!!

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11-20-2003, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sickboy35
because unlike sandra, he actually will fight and wins them when he does!! sandy talked that was it! how is he doin in boston? not much huh? i will never agree with you on this one melrose! he's a bum!!
I'm really not trying to draw a comparison between the 2. I'm just saying, when McCarthy would kick in a little offense, everyone would start griping that he's not doing his job, he should just take fighting majors and leave the offense to someone else. To me, it's weird that no one says that about Simon, who has 1 fight this month despite the fact his team's been abused and embarrased at least a 1/2 dozen occasions. You can't deny there's a double standard here. Do people really hate Sandy that much?

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11-20-2003, 06:20 AM
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What i like is the attitude. Most FA's that sign here come and play tentative hockey, always looking for others to get the team started. Simon seems to initiate his own chances and keeps his linemates honest by staying on top of the play. That's why too many FA's have come here and underachieved, they sit around waiting for the other 'big names' to get the team going. That's also one of my problems with Messier still around, but i'm not ranting here, i'll leave that for someone else

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11-20-2003, 07:26 AM
  #10
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Scoring touch?

he's playing 4 minutes per game more than Sandy, getting PP time, playing with at least one offensive player, and has one more goal and one less fight than McCarthy. Further, he doesn't throw the body around nearly as much as Sandy. I like what Simon's doing, but I'm still not seeing the huge upgrade - further, SImone's a guy you don't play 6-7 minutes a game either.

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11-20-2003, 07:36 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
he's playing 4 minutes per game more than Sandy, getting PP time, playing with at least one offensive player, and has one more goal and one less fight than McCarthy. Further, he doesn't throw the body around nearly as much as Sandy. I like what Simon's doing, but I'm still not seeing the huge upgrade - further, SImone's a guy you don't play 6-7 minutes a game either.

He also has four more assists.

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11-20-2003, 07:37 AM
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So it's been Simon..

who's been making those great passes to Mess so he can finish.

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11-20-2003, 07:41 AM
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My only gripe is that there are games where he disappears, IMO. No hitting, no nothing.
True, but that's just gonna happen during the regular season. Especially for 3rd line players that play physical. It's not optimal but it's expected. I guess what's important is that he's shown up alot more games then he hasn't and when he hasn't, he's not being detrimental to the team by taking bad penalties or making bad defensive plays. Also I think he feels that if he doesn't pick his spots well he could spend considerable time on the IR.

Quote:
I'm just saying, when McCarthy would kick in a little offense, everyone would start griping that he's not doing his job, he should just take fighting majors and leave the offense to someone else.
I don't think that most Ranger fans had that view Melrose. It wasn't an 'either or' situation. I don't think any fan complained when he scored a goal for the team or had a good offensive game like the one against Florida last year. That's an added bonus that we all would be happy with had he given an ounce of evidence that he would physically stick up for his teammates, particularly the "stars". If Simon fails to do that over the course of this season as guys like Lindros,Nedved,Messier get ran at then you'll hear plenty of complaining from the peanut gallery.

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11-20-2003, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
I'm really not trying to draw a comparison between the 2. I'm just saying, when McCarthy would kick in a little offense, everyone would start griping that he's not doing his job, he should just take fighting majors and leave the offense to someone else. To me, it's weird that no one says that about Simon, who has 1 fight this month despite the fact his team's been abused and embarrased at least a 1/2 dozen occasions. You can't deny there's a double standard here. Do people really hate Sandy that much?
I don't recall this team getting physically abused at all this year.

My problem with Sandy was that even when he was out there looking to score he didn't do his job.

A comparison, an offensive defenceman is always looking for that opportunity to jump in the play and create something offensively, but his job first and foremost is defence. Sandy's job while in NY, was enforcer/forward. His attitude should have been to protect and serve FIRST AND FOREMOST and if the opportunity presented itself add to the scoresheet by all means do so. The fact that Simon has always had more talent than Sandy seems lost on your point. Infact both Barnaby and Simon are more talented players and more willing participants in the enforcer role. And as such will be able to create chances in the offensive zone whereas Sandy could not.

I don't mind when one of our tough guys scores, in fact I'm more happier for them than the scorers simply because it's a bonus/reward type of thing, but when you make that your priority over doing your job, then it gets me a bit teed.

Sandy scoring is fine as long as he's doing his job. In my opinion, I didn't think he was doing his job and to me that's the main difference.

As for the team getting abused? Not sure which team you have been watching, because other than the Jersey game, this team has not been pushed around all that much at all.

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11-20-2003, 07:54 AM
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Lacouture has what, three fights?

why is that? I thought he was sticking up for his mates each and every time.

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11-20-2003, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
why is that? I thought he was sticking up for his mates each and every time.

Why does Lacouture have three fights? Because he wants to stay in the NHL. He has done very little else. Of course he's been fighting the Greg Cambells and Scott Gomez's of the league. Not a whole lot to write home about if you ask me.

And you can do more than just fight to stick up for a teammate.

Come on Fletch, isn't there more to complain about on this team than Simon?

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11-20-2003, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
why is that? I thought he was sticking up for his mates each and every time.
I really don't remember the Rangers getting pushed around in any of those games but my memory is almost shot. I do remember one fight was in defense of a teammate but I seem to remember one of the other ones was at the end of an absolutely horrible game by him where he had to do something to keep his ass in the lineup. The third one seemed to be a fight to try to get the team energized rather then in defense of a teammate.

EDIT: what singin said....

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11-20-2003, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666
As for the team getting abused? Not sure which team you have been watching, because other than the Jersey game, this team has not been pushed around all that much at all.
I mean abused by the opponent in terms of game play, not physically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666
My problem with Sandy was that even when he was out there looking to score he didn't do his job.
If you call Simon's 1 fight this month "doing his job", then I don't understand your problem with Sandy. That's my entire point.

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11-20-2003, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
I mean abused by the opponent in terms of game play, not physically.

If you call Simon's 1 fight this month "doing his job", then I don't understand your problem with Sandy. That's my entire point.
You just said it yourself MJ, the team hasn't been abused physically and the only time that I can remember a message needing to be sent was when Hordacuk was running Eric and Simon wnet right out and took care of buisness and let it be known that guys taking runs at our big boys who have to answer to somebody for it.

And being that Simon actually can still fight very well guys I think at least give it a 2nd thought before running one of our big boys.Guys are fully aware that they'll be mixing it up w/Chris.

Sandy on the other hand has significantly declined in the fighting area.I really can't think of the last time he won a bout.His mouth and antics weren't intimidating anybody anymore and thus far this year we haven't had as many liberties taken against us and having to fight Simon as oppossed to listen to Sandy's threats plays a role in that IMO.

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11-20-2003, 09:40 AM
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I dont even think you can argue this point. Simon has been a major improvement over Sandy, not a godsend but if you consider it a trade one for the other it's not even close.

Yes Sandy has one more fight, if you wanna watch the fights go to hockey-fights.com. If you call clutched onto Parker a fight and being afraid to throw at Langdon a fight then yeah that counts for two of them.

People act Sandy wasn't given any chances out there. His first two years he got just as much icetime as Simon and with each year his abilities went down a little more. LAst year he was hardly impressive.

Another reason Simon only has two fights, people, believe it or not, aren't exactly jumping at the chance to go with him. I mean he destroyed Stevenson and Hordichuk and in the preseason he had his way with Erskine. He's done his job. People know he is going to answer the bell and when he does it's not going to be an easy fight. Even in Boston sandy hasn't looked interested in fighting. Sure he'll drop the gloves, hell i could do that and hang on for 30 seconds.

Simon has played above expectations and is simply a better player. i mean it really is as simple as that.

Neither guy is a franchise player and both guys disappear. It's what they bring when they do appear that makes the difference to me. Simon has brought to the table what Sandy did his first season here {and a little more}.

For me it's not the number of fights, it's prescense. Simon has it, Sandy lost it. He ain't exactly lighting the world on fire up in beantown either.

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11-20-2003, 10:37 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Edge
Another reason Simon only has two fights, people, believe it or not, aren't exactly jumping at the chance to go with him.
Agreed. Larague does not have that many fighting majors, but that has nothing to do with him. It has everything to do with other teams not wanting to mess with him. Ditto for Simon. Edge is right when he says that people simply do not want to mess with him. He is not in the class of Laraque or Parker (would be curious to see how he would fare against Brash), but he has had to answer the bell, he has won rather handily.

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11-20-2003, 10:43 AM
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I dunno, i would at least be curious to see him go with Laraque and Parker.

In his heyday Simon was a scary mofo and if his shoulder is indeed healthy it would be an interesting test for a man who is looking to re-establish himself.

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11-20-2003, 10:47 AM
  #23
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Not really complaining...

but not really praising. Could Petro have been just as good a fourth line right winger? More speed...more willing hitter...about as much scoring touch?

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11-20-2003, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Fletch
but not really praising. Could Petro have been just as good a fourth line right winger? More speed...more willing hitter...about as much scoring touch?
No way Fletch.2 very different players who bring different things to the table.With a choice b/w the 2 I'd take Simon w/o a doubt.

And we should've had Petro and Simon and let Lacouture go.

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11-20-2003, 03:32 PM
  #25
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As well as Simon has exceeded my expectations of him, I didnt like the signing in July and I dont like the signing now either. Chances are I will never like the signing. I knew when he got here that, by automatically giving him a spot in the lineup instead of making him earn it, he would take away minutes that should be given to young guys like Lundmark, Moore, and Ortmeyer. The signings of Hlavac and Rucinksy only made it look even worse.

However, I must admit that Simon has played better than I thought he would. I thought he would take endless amounts of penalties, but for the most part, except for a couple of bogus majors, he's been pretty disciplined for a tough guy. He does seem to be a better and more willing fighter than Sandy. His size and strength along the boards have been a welcomed addition to what has been our most consistent line so far. But that says more about the futility of the rest of the lines than the success of the Messier line.

My point is, even though Simon has played well, I think we're a better team with Lundmark and other youngsters getting top minutes instead of the other way around. And I think Richard Scott would not be that much of a downgrade to Simon in a 4th line tough guy role, which Simon's role should be but obviously isnt since he's playing with Mess.

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